Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 150

Tuesday, November 23 1999

• Re: smells
• re: Agunah
• Re: Simplicity
• Re: The pirhana-like frenzy about Lubavitch
• Re: Tzelem Elokim
• Alternatives to Documentary Hypothesis
• Re: Conspicuous Consumption
• Re: paper plates
• Hungarian Roshei Yeshiva
• Chabad and Sinas Chinam
• Re: Avodah V4 #149
• Re: The pirhana-like frenzy about Lubavitch
• Avelus
• Re: Conspicuous Consumption
• Humor Alert: Information for Avodah Members to Darshen
• Re: Sources for Da'as Torah and Emunas Chochomin
• simplicity
• Re: simplicity
• Re: Conspicuous Consumption
• Re: Bitachon
• Re: paper plates

>>
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)

: 2.  My impression is that smells were common in Jewish practice (and
not
: only in the Beith HaMikdash) before the churban habayith....

How did you form that impression?

- -mi
<<
(a) in the Beith HaMikdash - from the sheep in Yericho.
(b) elsewhere - "v'hu yitein eth hamugmar"; the discussion in Beitza
about perfuming clothes on Yom Tov.

Perhaps someone who is CD enabled can give a longer list with precise
marei mekomoth.

David Riceman

Moshe Nugiel asked <<< Everybody says that the agunah problem is
something which needs to be solved.  Why does R' Rackman have such little
support in his efforts? >>>

Rabbi Bechhofer correctly responded that <<< One of our number (R'
Michael Broyde) has written a halachic treatise rejecting R' Rackman's
approach, and the general consensus here is that R' Rackman is wrong,
very wrong.  We have debated peripheral issues around the Agunah problem
and R' Rackman in general, but the above point, about his error, is
axiomatic here.>>>

Even axioms deserve to be explained. Fortunately, Rabbi Broyde's article
is available on the Web and can be read at
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/KidusheiTaut.html  (Much as I'd like to
summarize it, I'd be doing the subject a disservice by trying.)

Avodah is indexed at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/ix.html   That index
shows "Kiddushei Taus" (spelled various ways) to have been discussed this
past summer, in Avodah, Vol 3, Digests #74, 77, 78, 84, 85, 86, 200, 201.
 See the bottom of this email for directions how to obtain back issues
via email.
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From: Daniel Israel <daniel@pluto.ame.arizona.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 1999 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: Simplicity


>
> >I think this is a great idea.  From now on we chould
> >only use paper plates and plasticware for all our
> >simchas.
>
> Oh, great.  So now we have the environmentalists on our backs!
>
> --
> Daniel M. Israel
> <daniel@cfd.ame.arizona.edu>
> University of Arizona
> Tucson, AZ
>
In Arizona,  California, Israel and other desert climes  water is a more
important limiting factor.  This environmentalist will not complain! :-)
The rest of you can roll up your sleeves and pitch in....

>
> How can any torah observant Jew (and a member of this list) be silent
> when Jews who keep Torah and Mitzvos Be'hiddur - (far more behiddur than
> their detractors!) are being besmirched in such a disgusting fashion

We hear your point, but please, re the phrase in parantheses,  this is a
pretty heavy presumption to make across the board.

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.

----- Original Message -----
From: Shalom Carmy <carmy@ymail.yu.edu>

>
> Thus for the Rambam, as I understand him, intellect (=sekhel ha-nikneh) is
> not something we are born with, but something we acquire. But it is not
> limited to intellectuals. It is available to anyone who brings their
> thinking to the religious encounter.

OK I shall correct myself,  (by far not a new experience :-),  we could say
that the vast majority of humankind has been endowed with a pretty wonderful
BRAIN. This grants us a certain amount of initial intellectual and
insightful faculty according to our age, (and, of course, subject to much
variation, natural and environmental).  By learning, we sharpen these
faculties and develop sekhel ha-nikneh.  We acquire chochma, develop bina,
but da'as-  insight-  is experienced as a gift. We can see it as a fruit  of
subconscious processes. Since these processes are very prone to
contamination by our emotional agendas and environmental influences it
becomes very clear how important it is that our subconscious world should be
as pure as we can make it.  Our Yedias Hashem is a result of all these
mental processes, chochma, bina and da'as.  Mrs GA
>

1. R. Breuer's work is represented, in English, by his contribution to my
Modern Scholarship in the Study of Torah: Contributions and Limitations
(Jason Aronson). It is flanked by critiques by Dr Leiman and me. Breuer's
major Hebrew works in this area are Pirkei Moadot (2 volumes) & Pirkei
Breshit (2 volumes).

Breuer writes with a heavy pen, and his Hebrew paragraphs are long and
Teutonic. Often the direction is obscured by the fact that he is reacting
to German scholars whose positions he doesn't openly display. His early
expositions of his methodology are very difficult to fathom.

Nonetheless, the general contours of his theory are not as paradoxical or
enigmatic as his own language sometimes makes them out to be. See my
"Introducing Rabbi Breuer," in the aforementioned book; see also article
by Meir Ekstein in forthcoming Tradition.

There are weaknesses in Breuer's project: He deals only with literary
evidence, not with historical data. On occasion, he grants the phenomena
discovered by the critics greater weight than is warranted. And, as Dr
Leiman observes, he is not interested to show why his alternative is a
more plausible explanation of the phenomena than the kefira approach(es).
Yet he and his disciples have developed a good way to tackle many of these
issues in a manner that contributes to genuine talmud Torah, and not just
to da' ma she-tashiv.

2. Prof. Brichto of HUC (Reform seminary in Cincy), who was one of their
premier Bible scholars and Assyriologists, came to deny the Documentary
hypothesis in toto. In his last book, completed days before he died, he
has some scathing, and amusing things to say about the entire approach. I
mention his work with a caveat: the position he arrives at, if I
understand him rightly, is still far from belief in Torah mi-Sinai. But it
is a vigorous kefira in the DH.

3. In general, there is a great deal of skepticism and fluctuation about
the mainstays of the DH nowadays. This is acknowledged within the
brotherhood of non-Jewish scholars. It has also encouraged the growth of
literary analysis that ignores the division into hypothetical "sources"
and treats the text as a literary unity. In transmitting this pleasing
information to a frum audience, I must, however, counsel against regarding
this shaking of the foundations as identical with the acceptance of Torah
miSinai. The way is long: ("kol ba'eha lo yeshuvun... ve-gomer).

--- MSDratch@aol.com wrote:
> Dear Rabbi Dratch,

> 
> With Torah blessings,
> 
> Rabbi Yehuda Henkin
> 
> 
> 
> Chapter Fourteen
> 
> IT MAY BE GLATT....
> 
> 
> A recent Gerrer Rebbe limited not only the size of
> celebrations of his 
> chassidim, but also the amount parents could spend
> on apartments for 
> newlyweds. It is told that a wealthy follower
> complained to him that it was 
> well within his means to spend more. The Rebbe
> retorted, “Then go buy 
> yourself a different Rebbe.â

That would have been no problem for me.

I think the wrong people were legislated against.  

Consider this Mashal:

A hot tempered individual is waiting at a stop light
in his 1994 Chevy Cavalier.  To his right, a brand new
shiney Porsche Boxter pulls up and when the light
changes to green the sports car floors it and leaves
the Cavelier to bite his dust.  A chase ensues and the
Cavelier pulls up to the Porsche.  He pulls out his
Magnum 35 and blows the head off the guy in sports
car.

Who is at fault here...  the murderer or the victim?
Should we have prevented this from happening by
prohibiting purchases of Porsches? Do we legislate
against ever buying a sports car to prevent this type
of road rage from  occuring?  

I think not.  So too in our world.  We cannot prohibit
someone who spends  his/her money even if it is to
provoke jealousy and envy. To the extent that it
promotes financial suicide in some people, is the
extent that attention needs to be given to that
individual that is a victim of his own envy.  Even
though it is repugnant for one to "Reis Ois Der Oigen"
of your neighbors,  this is not always the motivation
of those who have the big bucks. We cannot punish an
innocent spender so that the foolish envier will be
protected.  We must instead treat the victim and teach
him how to live within his means... to be sameach
bechelko.

HM
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--- Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il> wrote:
> > Subject: Simplicity
> > 
> 
> In terms of reducing ones cost, i have a simple
> solution:
> Move to israel

By this logic It seems that the financially prudent
thing to do is to move to Israel.  

Two questions.

1.  Why do the vast majority of Meshulachim I see,
come from Israel?

2. Why are the majority of these Meshulachim asking
help for Hachnosas Kalla?

The Gashmius standard of living is still higher here
than it is in Israel. Just because one or two items
have reduced costs in Israel doesn't mean everything
does.  Energy costs are higher as are Dira costs (as
you pointed out). It seems apparent to me the the net
standard of living is still higher here, or, to put it
another way: Living in Israel at the same standard of
living as the "States" costs you a lot more.

The reason to move to Israel is that the Ruchnius
standard of living is higher.

HM
__________________________________________________
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From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>

Jerry Schachter <schachte@netvision.net.il> wrote:
Subject: Hungarian Roshei Yeshiva
..>>>>....Chust also had the same tradition from the Maharam Shick who was also a
>>>>Chasam Sofer Talmid, and from Rav Dushinsky and Dayan Weiss - both
>>>>Oberlanderists who had, in turn, come to Chust from Galante and went on
>>>>afterwards to head the Eidah in Yerushalayim.

"Oberlanderist" - that's a new one to me!

Dayan Weiss - I assume you are referring to Rav Yitzchok Yaakov
Weiss ZTL the author of Tshuvos Minchas Yitzchok, was AFAIK
born in Munkatch (to parents from Galicia),
who served as Dayan and eventually Rosh Bes Din in
Grosswardein (where his first shver  -
Rav Citronbaum had been the Rosh BD). After the war he was Dayan
in Manchester,  followed by his appointment as Rosh BD
and later Rav of the Eidah Charedis in Jerusalem.
He was definitely not an Oberlander (he was from Chasidishe stock)
and AFAIK had absolutely no connection with Galanta or Chust.


SBA

From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>

millerr@mail.biu.ac.il wrote:

Subject: Chabad and Shinas Chinam

>>>I am not a Chabadnik but don't think that one has
>>>to be in order to be amazed ..........(can I
>>>eat in a restaurant where the maschiach is a Lubavitcher ....

I think we will all eat in the restaurant of Mashiach
- Lubavitcher or not...

SBA

    Re: Agunah.
     Every major posek, reputable rabbi, trained dayyan, and scholar, here 
and abroad, who are  knowledgeably aware of the multifarious halakhot 
surrounding hilkhot Ishus and Gittin recognize the spurious arguments made by 
the Bet Din L'ma'an Agunot. Sentiments aside, serious students of halakha and 
noble pursuers of truth ought to examine the sources quoted to authenticate 
the veracity of the arguments and modus operandi facilitated by the Bet Din 
L'Agunot.
    Truly all those in the know: those intimately and directly involved in 
these matters know that valid halakhic antecedents are already being utilized 
by the [RCA] Bet Din of America, The Bet Din of Rav Feivel Cohen [Agudah] , 
the Bet Din Elyon in Monsey,  and other Batei Din of authoritative stature ( 
here and  abroad) to halakhically release when possible  agunot.
    The public  has no idea of the messiras nefesh of many to alleviate the 
plight of agunot. And I know first hand that the press has no desire to let 
you know.
B'chavod, Jacob Rubenstein

It gives me great pleasure to say that I attended a
Lubavitch wedding last night where the words "Yechi,
etc." were not recited even once.  The Rebbe was only
refferenced during the Chuppah where the traditional
letter that "he used to send" was read. In attendance,
as an invited guest, was non other than the famed
critic of Lubavitcher Meshichistin, Rabbi Chaim D.
Keller, Rosh Hayeshiva of Telshe here in Chicago, as
well as many representatives of other non Lubavitch
inststuions. This proves rather clearly to me that it
is not Lubavitch that has a pirhana-like frenzy
surrounding it but the Meshichisten of Lubavitch
which, like any rotten apple, can spoil the whole
barrel, if one doesn't remove it quickly.

HM
__________________________________________________
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From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>

"Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
Subject: RE: Avelus
>
> A Heter for aveilim to attend a simcha - by being photographers??
> Could we have a source or name of Posek approving of this?

>First off -- *was* it a simcha l'halacha? It was a reception, not the seudas
>mitzvah, with no live music. No meat or wine was served. To many opinions,
>that would be enough right there.

I have  just finished a year of avelus - and having quite a few
others here in the same (sad) situation  - we have had to face these shaalos
quite a lot. In SA YD 391 sk 2&3 as well as the halochos
by the Mateh Efraim (sk 23) at the end of the same volume of YD  -
where he is matir to attend a Sholom Zochor - he states "Af shebechoyl
haminhag shelo likones leshum seuda b'olom.."

>Secondly -- the general psak in meah shearim (regarding weddings) is that
>aveilim have to serve at the wedding in some way.

I understood that this heter refers to very close family members
(and does a Bar Mitzva have similar rules to a wedding?)

>....Another, more litvish leaning to MO, took the pictures.

Assuming that being a waiter is OK for Barmitzva's, would  being a
photographer have the same din these days?

Yelamdenu Rabosenu.

SBA

In a message dated 11/22/99 4:59:42 PM US Central Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< A hot tempered individual is waiting at a stop light
 in his 1994 Chevy Cavalier.  To his right, a brand new
 shiney Porsche Boxter pulls up and when the light
 changes to green the sports car floors it and leaves
 the Cavelier to bite his dust.  A chase ensues and the
 Cavelier pulls up to the Porsche.  He pulls out his
 Magnum 35 and blows the head off the guy in sports
 car.
 
 Who is at fault here...  the murderer or the victim? >>

Neither. It is the Porsche's fault. A shiny new Porsche Boxster develops 201 
hp at 6000 rpm, and 180 lbs./ft. of torque at 4500 rpm, all reachable with 
the 5-speed manual, which is standard equipment. It costs around $45,000, 
minimally equipped. So how did the '94 Cavalier, which has a weaker engine 
than my Kawasaki, manage to pull up to the Porsche? Because the Porsche 
screwed up. It just didn't perform as promised. Of course, there's the issue 
of the "Magnum 35." Colt manufactures a "Magnum" revolver that takes 
special-load .44 ammunition and a few close variations thereof. Thus a 
"Magnum 35," whatever it is, must be a very special weapon. A first-cousin to 
an Uzi, perhaps?

On the other hand, you could simply blame the murderer. Envy over another's 
material possessions is not, as I recall from Sanhedrin or Taanis, a defense 
or other halachic excuse for snuffing out the possessor's life with a lethal 
weapon. The question whether one legislates ownership of exotic possessions 
(the Porsche, not the Cavalier) is immaterial to this point. Whatever reasons 
might or might not exist within our community to restrict the the flashy 
flaunting of material wealth have nothing whatever to do with the right to 
personal reprisal. This is elemental. As much as I admire Reb Maryles, his 
mashal makes little sense.

(Personally, if it were entirely up to me, I'd blame the owner of the 
Porsche. Anyone who wants to flash around the Porsche nameplate (in reality, 
a souped-up VW) for less than half the price of the real deal (the 911 Targa) 
is an egotistical parvenu with a taste for second-rate German machinery with 
a very nasty lineage. It would serve him right that someone driving a rusting 
Cavalier would blow him away. Buy American, Be American, Be A Mensch.)

David Finch

Upon running a web search for the ancestral hometown (where generations of
Bechhofer, up to and including my father, were born), I came across the
following webpage and information. I leave it for talented minds to darshen
according to their skills:

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

> http://www.geka-brush.com/en/vic/vic1/vic1.htm
>
> Division of  GmbH
>
> Some general informations about us
>
> Since more than 200 years brushes are manufactured in Bechhofen, worldwide
> known as the "brush metropolis in Germany". In this little city, which
does
> almost completely entirly live on the production of brushes, specialists
for
> all kinds of brushes did gather. As well Victoria settled down in
Bechhofen
> and highly qualified shaving brush maker are in charge of the survey of
the
> production and the manufacture our wellknown handmade shaving brushes
> established under the registered trademarks "Victoria" and "Thermos".
>
> The Company Victoria
>
> Victoria was founded in 1905 and in 1971 integrated into the Geka-Brush
GmbH
> Bechhofen. The factory and production location is Germany.

R' YGB wrote me : 

	Subject: Re: Sources for Da'as Torah and Emunas Chochomin

	There was a nice pair of essays in Techumin a few years ago. Perhaps
someone
	with a set readily accessible can give you the reference. In my
opinion,
	Rabbi Sherman, the DT advocate, won the debate, although his
adversary
	scored an important point with an intriguing Tanya about not coming
to him
	(the Ba'al HaTanya) for matererial eitzos.

	Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
	Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
	http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

Can someone have those articles (Techumin) and can fax them to me ?

Thank you 

But using paper plates brings with it ecological
problems (unless they are recycled; not really an
option in Israel).  And there is no real saving of
water since it requires water to manufacture them.

>I have heard opinions that on shabbat one should use
>paper plates (assuming no dishwasher) so that life is
>easier for those that wash dishes. It is not fair to
>have expensive dishes to the disadvantage
>of the dishwasher.

And the corresponding income also goes down generally.
 The real question in terms of income versus costs how
much is a wedding here compared to there.  I think a
better and more comprehensive solution is to learn a
bit of self control.

>In terms of reducing ones cost, i have a simple
solution: Move to israel
__________________________________________________
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From: ben waxman <benwaxman55@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 8:43 AM
Subject: simplicity


> But using paper plates brings with it ecological
> problems (unless they are recycled; not really an
> option in Israel).  And there is no real saving of
> water since it requires water to manufacture them.

Question is-  how much water compared to the water needed to clean
equivalent amount of pot dishes?  I agree that any environmental solution
needs to take into account all economic factors. Wages for dishwashers are
certainly an issue, but in a water crisis, the dishwashers might have to
seek other work.  Landfill tips, recycling etc are of great concern-  this
is a major tangent from Avodah-  if anyone wishes more discussion, please
contact me off list.  Suffice to say that good frum environmentalism centres
around the prohibition of "bal tashchis".  Mrs. GA
>

>
> I think not.  So too in our world.  We cannot prohibit
> someone who spends  his/her money even if it is to
> provoke jealousy and envy. To the extent that it
> promotes financial suicide in some people, is the
> extent that attention needs to be given to that
> individual that is a victim of his own envy.  Even
> though it is repugnant for one to "Reis Ois Der Oigen"
> of your neighbors,  this is not always the motivation
> of those who have the big bucks. We cannot punish an
> innocent spender so that the foolish envier will be
> protected.  We must instead treat the victim and teach
> him how to live within his means... to be sameach
> bechelko.
>
> HM

Yes, but how exactly do we keep ourselves from raising our standards and
expectations to the point that we have to go into debt to make a simcha or
send our children to sleep-away-camp simply to avoid disappointment and even
stigma for our children?  How exactly do we bring these expectations down?
Mrs. G.Atwood.
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.

----- Original Message -----
From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 1999 4:57 PM
Subject: Bitachon


> I have a Sunday evening Chabura in the Chazon Ish's "Emuna u'Bitachon". At
> the beginning of the second perek he makes an interesting point, that, in
> his opinion, the "Chassidic" view of Bitachon, that everything that
happens
> to an individual is good, is incorrect. Rather, things happen that may not
> be good. Bitachon means one trusts that proper tefilla and avodah can be
> effective in reaching out to Hashem and attaining His assistance in
> overriding the bad happenstance.
>
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
> http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

Bezman hazeh we say "baruch dayan emet"  in the case of very bad news.
"Bad" may be very subjective, but it is certainly real for the person
experiencing it. If we were to say that it's really good, then we'd be
making a bracha levetala. Why wouldn't we always say "baruch hatov
vehametiv" no matter what happens?  Lehalacha we must be honest with our
perception.  In the end of days & in olam haba we realise in retrospect that
in the greater scheme of things all "happenings" are really for the good.
When we reach that understanding on a profound level we'll be on an entirely
different plane of cognition. Some tzadikim- such as Nachum Ish Gamzu- may
have that level of perception in their time. For the rest of us we should
say two different brachas,  but when we really, honestly understand the way
G-d runs the world we'll say only "hatov vehametiv".
This is also related to the question whether a random event is a product of
the order of nature set in motion for the "medium" of olam hazeh, (Rambam)
or is itself a deliberate component  of overall design. (many mystical
sources)     Mrs. G. Atwood.

>
>

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.

----- Original Message -----
From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: paper plates


>
>
> --- Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il> wrote:
> > > Subject: Simplicity
> > >
> >
> > In terms of reducing ones cost, i have a simple
> > solution:
> > Move to israel
>
> By this logic It seems that the financially prudent
> thing to do is to move to Israel.
>
> Two questions.
>
> 1.  Why do the vast majority of Meshulachim I see,
> come from Israel?
>
> 2. Why are the majority of these Meshulachim asking
> help for Hachnosas Kalla?
>
> The Gashmius standard of living is still higher here
> than it is in Israel. Just because one or two items
> have reduced costs in Israel doesn't mean everything
> does.  Energy costs are higher as are Dira costs (as
> you pointed out). It seems apparent to me the the net
> standard of living is still higher here, or, to put it
> another way: Living in Israel at the same standard of
> living as the "States" costs you a lot more.
>
> The reason to move to Israel is that the Ruchnius
> standard of living is higher.
>
> HM

True -

The economic advantages of living with Israel are sadly not in all
departments.  As I'm sure you remember we went into the problems of marrying
off kids and parnasa some time ago.  I still argue that the boys in the
charedi world need the SKILLS.  There are simply not enough niches for
businessmen- and in any society which needs economic growth - (given the
rate of population growth in the charedi world this is obvious)- there is a
need a constant input of "energy".  This "energy" will either be provided by
donations from outside the charedi world or it must be provided from natural
resources.  Business plus high tech engineering is a powerful tool which can
enable us to use available energy more efficiently and draw more energy into
the system-  (Prof. Branover's work on solar batteries for example).
Technical engineers MUST come from the charedi population simply because of
the need for parnasa for our growing youth. There is an obvious limit on
most conventional retail businesses.  I shall restrain myself- anyone who
would like to discuss this more, please contact me off list.    Mrs. G.
Atwood.



> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>

*********************


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