Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 147

Sunday, November 21 1999

• Avraham as Tumtum
• Re: Any Orthodox critiques of Documentary Theory ?
• RE: Retraction, etc.
• RE: WWW, Shabbos, & Time Zones
• RE: R' Elyashav's psak
• Re: Any Orthodox Critiques of Documentary Theory?
• Melaveh Malkah
• Re: Rights
• Re: Melaveh Malkah
• Re: Rav Moshe
• RE: Mimentic vs Textual---Logical vs Traditional
• Re: Value of birthright
• Re: Brisker kulos
• Re: simplicity
• Re: Response to R. Aaron Twersky Article in the JO- the poor and bar mitzvas
• Re: Response to R. Aaron Twersky Article in the JO- the poor and bar mitzvas

The source is in the gemara in Yevamot 64a: "amar R.Ami Avraham v'Sara
tumtumin hayu".

Josh

Rav Dovid Zvi Hoffman (author of SHU"T Melamed L'Ho'il) wrote a monograph
in German over 100 years ago attacking the DH. I have seen a Hebrew
translation.

Josh

> I don't understand what's going on here. Rabbi Weiss already explained
> very clearly that that is NOT what he meant! People are
> seeing what they
> want to see!

The fact that he mentioned Avraham and Sarah being Elderly, and the
increased chance of elderly parents having DS children, shows he DID mean to
draw that conclusion, at least tangentially.

Akiva

> I recall a teshiva (I don't recall from who though) about 
> sending a fax to
> a place where it is Shabbat.  It was held to be mutar
> 

One of the Dyanim in London hold that it's asur. Elu v'elu...

Akiva 



===========================
Akiva Atwood                 
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274  

> said.  WOuld it not be better to find out what he actually
> said first,
> before all these conjectures are being made.
>

I just checked with someone *very* close to Rav Eliyasav, who replied that
the reported psak does *not* accurately reflect the Rav's opinion.

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

----Original Message-----

>From: "Mike A. Singer" <m-singer@uchicago.edu>
>Subject: Any Orthodox Critiques of Documentary Theory?
>
>In academic circles, the "Documentary Theory" (ie, that the Torah is an
>edited work composed of parts written by four or more human authors)
>appears to be almost universally accepted, and is generally discussed as if
>it were as verifiable as a physical law.  Yet to my knowledge, no evidence
>exists in support of this hypothesis; it is based on textual
>"discrepancies" and variant styles.  Is anyone aware of a scholarly
>Orthodox critique of this hypothesis?



I'm sure someone has addressed the issue in writing.  In general -- there
are 2 basic matters that concern us IMHO:

1)  The Documentary Theory usually assumes that there is no such thing as
prophecy, i.e. -- direct contact between a Creator and Mankind.

2) As it depends on the existance of previous versions that were edited into
one present Torah, the only possible proof for such a theory would be in
finding actual documents, dated pre-Torah, that would be different from the
Torah in those places that the holders of the Doc. Theory say that editing
took place.

For instance, Hamurabi's laws are now considered by many to actually be a
later version of groups of similar laws,  as precursor documents have been
found.

Shavu'a Tov,

Shoshana L. Boublil
Israel

There's an avodas-Hashem related problem which I've had for many years,
which I hope my fellow listmembers might help me solve. Namely, every
time I have ever observed the mitzva of Melaveh Malkah in any fashion, I
have always gotten the feeling that I've been celebrating the departure
of Shabbos, and that I'm insulting Shabbos, doing nothing to honor it.

I have never seen (or read about) anyone who was careful to avoid melacha
in the course of preparing or eating the Melaveh Malkah. Rather, the
lights are on, the food is freshly cooked, and music is not unusual. How
does this honor Shabbos? Doesn't it instead celebrate the departure of
Shabbos, and our ability to do these things after a 25-hour break?

If one is going to "honor the Shabbos when it leaves", wouldn't the
proper way to be by stretching it out? Enjoy a nice Shalosh Seudos until
Shabbos is over, and perhaps for a few minutes longer, or even a few
*hours* longer. *That* how we show our love for the Shabbos.

Isn't it contradictory to honor Shabbos by doing melacha? Someone
recently mentioned the practice of using beer for havdala after Pesach,
to demonstrate that we do enjoy chometz and we abstain from it on Pesach
only because HaShem wants us to. That is a desirable attitude towards
chometz, but I do not see how it can be a desirable attitude towards
melacha. We should not revel in our ability to do melacha after Shabbos,
but should abstain from it, davening for the time when all seven days of
the week will be a "yom she'kulo Shabbos".

Any thoughts?

Shavua Tov to all,
Akiva Miller

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--- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com> writes in v4n141:
> : It is a moral outrage to me that an individual's
> : rights should be curtailed on the premise that it
> is
> : for the greater good of society, when the greater
> good
> : can be equally served without that curtailment. 
> 
> Rights? What are rights? We're talking Judaism, not
> American law. 

I'm sorry.  Judaism most certainly does discuss
rights. One big example is Meseches Bava Metzia which
is full of discussions about rights.  Rights of the
Malveh... rights of the Loveh...  Rights of the
various different shomrim, baale hapikdonos etc.
Virtualy every Mesechta talks about finacial rights. 
As a mater of fact it is this very type of right that
the Torah seems to defend, property rights... the
rights of every individual to not share his property
with anyone.  One can amass a fortune in Israel and
beaqueth it entirely to his children or whomever he
wishes. It's not even clear if Maasar Ksafim is a
Chiuv Doraisa. The Torah is very clear about the
monetary rights of Israel.  Judaism is very much a
free market religion, albeit with rules of commerce,
primrily against exccesive profits. No where does the
Torah require sharing one's wealth.  Of course the
Torah teaches modesty in our living habits which
includes the way we use our money.  But let us not
forget that when it comes to money and wealth, the
Torah does give us "rights".

The duties you refer to are really our Mitzvah
obligations. To this I obviously agree.  We are a
religion of duties not rights.  But rights in this
context mean entitlements.  Judasim does not
automtically give out entitlements to spurious
subgroups as defined by the dominant culture.  It does
give protection to various subgroups as defind by the
Torah, however.  To be sure one of the great
misfortunes of twentieth century life is the
preoccupation with the "rights" of certain
subcultures, whether they be Gay rights or Minority
rights. Eventhough these rights were borne of a
sincere desire by society to protect certain
minorites, they have engendered an attitude in society
of "me first" intstead of "what can I do to help". 
Judaism discourages "me-ism" and encourages "doing the
right thing" i.e. duties and obligations to G-d and
one's fellow man.

But none of this takes away the right of an individual
to enjoy his wealth in any (mutar) way he sees fit.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

In a message dated 11/20/99 7:44:16 PM US Central Standard Time, 
kennethgmiller@juno.com writes:

<<  Someone
 recently mentioned the practice of using beer for havdala after Pesach,
 to demonstrate that we do enjoy chometz and we abstain from it on Pesach
 only because HaShem wants us to. That is a desirable attitude towards
 chometz, but I do not see how it can be a desirable attitude towards
 melacha. >>

The important point is that it is a desirable attitude towards beer. Beer is 
vastly underrated as a halachic symbol, perhaps because Rashi (actually, his 
daughters) made wine. Why do we assume that David's cup poureth over with 
wine? Could it not have been beer? Beer is far more refreshing and certainly 
is more healthy, at least in slight immoderation. It goes with any food, 
fleishig or milchig, and is not subject to the same strict kashruth 
requirements. It is cheaper, too, which meets with the spirit (!) of 
moderation that many of us have been arguing about recently.

Havdala with beer is much more meaningful than havdala with wine. This is 
self-evident. Weddings with beer are more blessed, too. 

L'Chaim,

David Finch

Richard Wolpoe wrote concerning my Rav Moshe and woman 
fainting case that

> Understood.  I might have missed this point - that you were 
> personally familiar 
> with the details and yasher koach for clarifying it.
> 
> Rich Wolpoe
> 
> 
> ______________________________ Reply Separator 
> _________________________________
> Subject: Re: Rav Moshe 
> Author:  Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@juno.com> at tcpgate
> 
> 
> Fair Questions(Attached below)
> 
> You ignore the fact that I personally heard this story from the 
> woman 
> it happened to, new the circumstances of the case and heard it
> several years later (when any immediate hostility would have 
> disappeared)
> 
> 

Actually my point was two fold. One was that I was familiar
with thecase. The other point is that it was obvious (to me
and certainly to Rav Moshe) that there were only a finite
number of reasons that a 6 week Kallah would ask for a divorce
The underlying concept here is that EXPLICITNESS should not
be a prerequisite for granting the divorce.


Perhaps you disagree...but the real Rav Moshe (i.e Moshe Rabaynu) 
was picked precisely because of his capacity to be empathic with
the silent (I am referring to the midrash that says that when Moshe
ran after a loss sheep God said 'Just as you went after this sheep
and fed it so will I make you leader of the Jewish people'

From a halachic point of view I am raising the issue of whether 
'obvious understanding of silent anguish in women' justifies 
overriding the DAN LECAF ZECHUS by which we are suppose
to treat Gedolim like Rav Moshe. In this particular instance I
would say that our 'obvious understanding' takes precedence
over Rav moshes silence.

I must go a step further. I only knew the details of this case because
it was obvious to me and I asked the women. I realize some people
may not like to 'start up' with Gedolim but that is precisely what may
be needed with the growing issue of domestic violence.

Anyway..some food for thought (or for postings)

Russell http://www.shamash.org/rashi/
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One of my favorite laining dikdukim comes up this week.
I reprint it below. I use it to bring up the issue whether
we are doing justice to the Mesorah by continually emphasizing
tradition and not emphasizing logical derivation more.

The issue occurs on Gen 32:10. There are two traditions (Mesorahs)
for the punctuation of the first word (KTNTI). AZLA GERESH, REVII.

Allow me to now prove by logic that we MUST lain it as an AZLA
GERESH. I then leave it to the readership to decide if such logical
arguments "belong" in our daily dialog (or daily postings or way
of thinking about halacha).

The proof:

The two cantillations correspond to the following two ways of 
interpreting the verse:

AZLA GERESH: I am too small to receive mercy...or to receive truth
REVII: Iam to small to receive (Mercy and Truth).

(If necessary I can show that the REALTIONSHIP between the
two cantillations and the two ways of interpreting the verses is
straightforward and not the problem).

Now it is clear that God's MERCY and TRUTH to Jacob were two
separate items (and this corresponds to the AZLA GERESH). I 
could go thru the stories in the Bible and show which ones
were Mercy and which were truth but the other readers can
do this also.

Further support is found in Gen 47:29--- Rashi suggests that
the Bibles coined phrase MERCY-TRUTH refers to a new
entity----the respects given to the dead (Which is a mercy that
is 'truthful' since no reciprocity can be expected and therefore
is pure mercy).

A further support can be found from the Leningrad Codex.
The AZLA GERESH is not a curve in codexes from the
9th century but rather a line (that is the notation for
AZLA GERESH is a LINE above the word).

It so happens that this line 'bumps into the TET in KATONTI'
Thus it would be easy for a reader to BYPASS the AZLA
GERESH since the LINE + TET looks like a METEG. Furthermore
it would be easy for the reader to 'see' a revii in the word since
Katonti has a DOT on top of it (from the cholom of KATONTI).
So it is easy to see how an error could have happened which
would then have been preserved by transcription.

That is the end of the proof

Notice that there are other issues here besides whether we
should Pasken laining by logical arguments. For example
the awareness that such errors can happen naturally leads
to a new notation system in which eg the Azla Geresh is 
a CURVE not a LINE and eg the DOTS for Cholam vs
Revii are placed in different parts of the page (This is
the way the KORAIN TENACH punctuates these matters).

Anyway I seriously propose the above as a model for solving
many issues which appear Mesorahdic by logic. I am curious
what others think

Russell http://www.shamash.org/rashi/


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In a message dated 11/17/99 6:35:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

> Daniel Israel wrote:
>  
>  >>Those who are discussing the market value of the birthright, check the
>  Ramban.  The market value is zero if Esav dies before Yitzchak.>>

Correction - The market value is zero if Esav dies CHILDLESS before Yitzchak.

Kol tuv,
Elozor

> I remember a story that the Brisker Rav was once derided by the local
>  anti-religious Jews as being too strict, and his response was a
>  tongue-in-cheek list of ten issues where he paskened leniently. The only
>  one of the ten which I remember right now, is his opinion that one does
>  not have to recite "Baruch HaShem L'Olam" in Maariv.
>  
>  I've seen this list several times, but now I cannot remember where I saw
>  it, or what the other nine were. I think it might have been in a footnote
>  in the Journal Of Halacha And Contemporary Society once upon a time. Does
>  anyone have a reference?
>  
>  Thank you and Good Shabbos
>  
>  Akiva Miller

The list can be found on pp. 48-50 of "My Uncle the Netziv" as part of a 
delightful chapter about a night the author (the Torah Temimah) shared a room 
in an inn in Minsk (try saying that ten times quickly :) ) with with Rav 
Yosef Ber (father of Rav Chaim).  If you can still find it, it is a great 
book.

Kol tuv,
Elozor

>
> <<>  Let's make a Takanah about clothes!  No one can spend more
> > than a predetermined limit on clothes per year.

Years ago I did hear a takana about clothes-  I think just applying to
residents of Yerushalayim, not sure, and I don't remember what period:
The takana prohibited gold threads in clothes because that would be
ostentatious. Anyone remember more details?
There are several takanos concerning weddings still respected by many
Yerushalmim-  particularly the prohibition on wedding bands beyond drums and
voice.  Toward the beginning of the century it was commonplace to celebrate
the wedding on Erev Shabbos-  the Leil Shabbos meal would double up as the
Wedding Seuda and be limited to family and perhaps very closest friends.
Mrs. G.A.

Shalom all!
It's good to be back-  in EY, not to mention the 500 fascinating Avodah
posts waiting for me!  Method of attack-  order last twenty four hours
before arrival, first by time, then by thread.  The other 400 posts are in
"old avodah" file for perusal at my leisure.  (leisure?!)  Attack Thursday's
then download. Thus I shall try to stay with you, but if I repeat points
made earlier or very recently, my apologies.
For what they're worth-  my two grushim:

HM wrote:
> These problems are far more serious and pervasive than
> any simple Takana would solve. These probelms revolve
> around an intricate combination of sociological and
> psychological phenomena that are inherent to twentieth
> century living. Among others, these consists of
> cultural surroundings, technological advances,
> economic conditions, and the sheer abundance and
> availability of goods and services available to anyone
> who has the money to pay for them. So as to make us
> aware and desirous of these goods and services, we are
> constantly being bombarded with unrelenting
> advertising, sublimninal and otherwise, which tells us
> that we are nothing without them.

Sadly very true.  There is a difference between poor= deprived and requiring
handouts  and poor=relatively low income,  though "deprived" is also
relative and subjective. We have a difference between "oni", "evyon", "dal".
I grew up in NW England-  Protestant working class ethic was prevailing
milieu... "make do", "live within one's means", "there's no shame in an
honest day's wage"  or words to that effect.  In the course of  the
industrial revolution many of my ancestors suffered the consequences of
horrible working conditions and pathetic wages, but eventually  we all
prospered from the resultant economic growth and learned how to emerge from
poverty with our heads held high. We weren't the owners of the mills and the
mines, and we were all in the same boat.
Later in life I was shocked to see that in many western societies "poor" is
almost used as an insult.  Yes, I can understand embarassment in a person
who asks for handouts,  but for a person making parnasa at subsistence level
due to many limiting factors- (esp true in Israel today for many frum
families) there should be no shame and no insult.
Consider the agrarian society in Biblical  times. There were probably many
farmers and townsfolk with relatively low income.  Did they all feel
ashamed?  They were free from the constant advertising that brainwashes us
into thinking that personal value is somehow connected to material
possession.  We cannot allow that advertising to define us and increase our
desires-  to stray after our eyes and our hearts.

Slight digression- think of the diet of the cohen for a minute. There was
actually a doctor stationed in the Temple due to the health problems caused
by the consumption of so much meat.  The meal offerings, the breads baked
five different ways, were probably a welcome break and a balance to the
constant barbecue ( kadosh though it was), certainly the more base desire
for meat would wear off pretty quickly.) The cohenim probably greeted these
humble offerings with delighted gratitude. This is just speculation, of
course, I havn't actually had a chat with a fully operating cohen in this
gilgul, but I don't think they would look down on the poor at all.
Yes,  there are many references in our sources to our need to be sensitive
to the situation of a person with low income, especially to one who used to
enjoy a much higher standard of living.   This sensitivity is necessary so
that the poor are not constantly forced to see a contrast between their
situation and that of others, and become depressed with their lot.  This
sensitivity is also necessary for the affluent-  in order that they should
not become proud of their assets and define their worth by them.  Bottom
line,  it's very much a matter of focus and self definition.
>
..  A sit down kiddush after davening
> should be the extent of it.  After kiddush, everyone
> goes home to their own Shabbos Seudah. We need a sense
> of proportion here

Quite so,  though I argue that it is possible to make a bar mitzvah
economically and modestly and still have a nice big party beyond Shabbos- in
fact in many cases this is preferable, even if there is an eruv.
Example-  our own, a very pleasant affair, though this biased opinion is
corroborated by many friends.

Thursday night- (the actual birthday)  the Seudat Chaverim-  (friend's
meal) -  Ahrele's Rebbe and his classmates-  in the house with
fresh baguettes, coldcuts and salad.
Shabbos-  leyning (perfect, may I add) in a vasikin minyan and no kiddush,
both at Ahrele's request.
Sunday night-  reception-  at a modest but pleasant hall in the centre of
town-  we have many friends from many neighbourhoods in Jerusalem and out,
it was not feasible to accommodate them over Shabbos in our neighbourhood,
as many have their own sizeable families.
The simplest catering, kugel,  barekes and other mezonot and salads.  We
brought our own sound system and second son was "DJ."  The live
entertainment was a skills trade and we used our own cameras:  photos were
taken by family members and friends in avelus who would otherwise be unable
to come.  All spare food was brought home-  the hall packaged it for us.
(some of it is still in the freezer).  The Bar Mitzvah boy had a brand new
suit (grandma's gift), my beautiful suit I was fortunate enough to find in a
gemach. If any of you think this is "cheap", well, it simply makes no
difference to us.
I really don't believe our friends felt imposed upon-  on the contrary,
they were plainly glad to be invited and everyone enjoyed themselves.

Just this Shabbos we had a Bar Mitzvah exactly as H.M. described-  also
pleasant, and many neighbours make a seudah with just a minyan in the house.
Many others make a reception in a hall.  Some of us have help from family
chutz la'aretz, some of us don't- but  I don't think people here really care
very much who does what. We enjoy a simcha in great style and we are also
happy at the more modest simchas.  To each his own-  as long as you pay for
the tefillin without too much of a delay!

IMHO there should be some upper limit, but that's not my call.    Mrs. G.
Atwood

Shalom all!
It's good to be back-  in EY, not to mention the 500 fascinating Avodah
posts waiting for me!  Method of attack-  order last twenty four hours
before arrival, first by time, then by thread.  The other 400 posts are in
"old avodah" file for perusal at my leisure.  (leisure?!)  Attack Thursday's
then download. Thus I shall try to stay with you, but if I repeat points
made earlier or very recently, my apologies.
For what they're worth-  my two grushim:

HM wrote:
> These problems are far more serious and pervasive than
> any simple Takana would solve. These probelms revolve
> around an intricate combination of sociological and
> psychological phenomena that are inherent to twentieth
> century living. Among others, these consists of
> cultural surroundings, technological advances,
> economic conditions, and the sheer abundance and
> availability of goods and services available to anyone
> who has the money to pay for them. So as to make us
> aware and desirous of these goods and services, we are
> constantly being bombarded with unrelenting
> advertising, sublimninal and otherwise, which tells us
> that we are nothing without them.

Sadly very true.  There is a difference between poor= deprived and requiring
handouts  and poor=relatively low income,  though "deprived" is also
relative and subjective. We have a difference between "oni", "evyon", "dal".
I grew up in NW England-  Protestant working class ethic was prevailing
milieu... "make do", "live within one's means", "there's no shame in an
honest day's wage"  or words to that effect.  In the course of  the
industrial revolution many of my ancestors suffered the consequences of
horrible working conditions and pathetic wages, but eventually  we all
prospered from the resultant economic growth and learned how to emerge from
poverty with our heads held high. We weren't the owners of the mills and the
mines, and we were all in the same boat.
Later in life I was shocked to see that in many western societies "poor" is
almost used as an insult.  Yes, I can understand embarassment in a person
who asks for handouts,  but for a person making parnasa at subsistence level
due to many limiting factors- (esp true in Israel today for many frum
families) there should be no shame and no insult.
Consider the agrarian society in Biblical  times. There were probably many
farmers and townsfolk with relatively low income.  Did they all feel
ashamed?  They were free from the constant advertising that brainwashes us
into thinking that personal value is somehow connected to material
possession.  We cannot allow that advertising to define us and increase our
desires-  to stray after our eyes and our hearts.

Slight digression- think of the diet of the cohen for a minute. There was
actually a doctor stationed in the Temple due to the health problems caused
by the consumption of so much meat.  The meal offerings, the breads baked
five different ways, were probably a welcome break and a balance to the
constant barbecue ( kadosh though it was), certainly the more base desire
for meat would wear off pretty quickly.) The cohenim probably greeted these
humble offerings with delighted gratitude. This is just speculation, of
course, I havn't actually had a chat with a fully operating cohen in this
gilgul, but I don't think they would look down on the poor at all.
Yes,  there are many references in our sources to our need to be sensitive
to the situation of a person with low income, especially to one who used to
enjoy a much higher standard of living.   This sensitivity is necessary so
that the poor are not constantly forced to see a contrast between their
situation and that of others, and become depressed with their lot.  This
sensitivity is also necessary for the affluent-  in order that they should
not become proud of their assets and define their worth by them.  Bottom
line,  it's very much a matter of focus and self definition.
>
..  A sit down kiddush after davening
> should be the extent of it.  After kiddush, everyone
> goes home to their own Shabbos Seudah. We need a sense
> of proportion here

Quite so,  though I argue that it is possible to make a bar mitzvah
economically and modestly and still have a nice big party beyond Shabbos- in
fact in many cases this is preferable, even if there is an eruv.
Example-  our own, a very pleasant affair, though this biased opinion is
corroborated by many friends.

Thursday night- (the actual birthday)  the Seudat Chaverim-  (friend's
meal) -  Ahrele's Rebbe and his classmates-  in the house with
fresh baguettes, coldcuts and salad.
Shabbos-  leyning (perfect, may I add) in a vasikin minyan and no kiddush,
both at Ahrele's request.
Sunday night-  reception-  at a modest but pleasant hall in the centre of
town-  we have many friends from many neighbourhoods in Jerusalem and out,
it was not feasible to accommodate them over Shabbos in our neighbourhood,
as many have their own sizeable families.
The simplest catering, kugel,  barekes and other mezonot and salads.  We
brought our own sound system and second son was "DJ."  The live
entertainment was a skills trade and we used our own cameras:  photos were
taken by family members and friends in avelus who would otherwise be unable
to come.  All spare food was brought home-  the hall packaged it for us.
(some of it is still in the freezer).  The Bar Mitzvah boy had a brand new
suit (grandma's gift), my beautiful suit I was fortunate enough to find in a
gemach. If any of you think this is "cheap", well, it simply makes no
difference to us.
I really don't believe our friends felt imposed upon-  on the contrary,
they were plainly glad to be invited and everyone enjoyed themselves.

Just this Shabbos we had a Bar Mitzvah exactly as H.M. described-  also
pleasant, and many neighbours make a seudah with just a minyan in the house.
Many others make a reception in a hall.  Some of us have help from family
chutz la'aretz, some of us don't- but  I don't think people here really care
very much who does what. We enjoy a simcha in great style and we are also
happy at the more modest simchas.  To each his own-  as long as you pay for
the tefillin without too much of a delay!

IMHO there should be some upper limit, but that's not my call.    Mrs. G.
Atwood

*********************


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