Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 140

Thursday, November 18 1999

• Re: Yitchak had Downs Syndrome!?!
• Re: Yitchak had Downs Syndrome!?!
• Re: Yitchak had Downs Syndrome!?!
• Re[2]: Macho'o
• Re: simplicity
• Re: Yitchak had Downs Syndrome!?!
• Macho'o
• Simplicity
• Lubavitch
• Re: "Kol K'vudah . . . "
• RE: Avodah V4 #139
• Re: Macho'o
• Re: Lubavitch
• FW: please pass to avodah
• ziv'hei Hashem...
• Re: Macho'o
• Re: simplicity

The following, written by RAW, is going to appear in this week's Toras Aish.

-mi



AN ADDENDUM TO LAST WEEK'S FORSHPEIS ON DOWNS SYNDROME 

Last week's Forshpeis precipitated significant discussion. People have 
misunderstood my words and as the author I assume full responsibility.  The 
purpose of that Dvar Torah was not to assert that Yitzhak (Isaac) had Downs 
Syndrome.  That assertion has no basis.    

The intent of the Forshpeis was to indicate that from the perspective of 
drush, Yitzhak possessed some characteristics that teach us something, not 
about Yitzhak, but about Downs Syndrome.  Specifically, that those who have 
Downs have the capacity to spiritually reach the highest levels and to 
inspire others to reach extraordinary heights.  

I was pained that some individuals, in reacting to this idea, even went so 
far as to state that those with Downs may not have been created in the image 
of God. 

For some, spirituality is exclusively bound with the intellect.  Those of 
lesser intelligence are not viewed as having the capacity to have spiritual 
depth.  The Forshpeis was an attempt to say that spirituality emerges from 
the whole being-not only from the mind, but also from the soul.  Those with 
Downs may be blessed with the spiritual brilliance to become the greatest 
tsadikim or tsidkaniot of their generation. 

Almost as offensive as the original.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: Yitchak had Downs Syndrome!?!


> The following, written by RAW, is going to appear in this week's Toras
Aish.
>
> -mi
>
>
>
> AN ADDENDUM TO LAST WEEK'S FORSHPEIS ON DOWNS SYNDROME
>
> Last week's Forshpeis precipitated significant discussion. People have
> misunderstood my words and as the author I assume full responsibility.
The
> purpose of that Dvar Torah was not to assert that Yitzhak (Isaac) had
Downs
> Syndrome.  That assertion has no basis.
>
> The intent of the Forshpeis was to indicate that from the perspective of
> drush, Yitzhak possessed some characteristics that teach us something, not
> about Yitzhak, but about Downs Syndrome.  Specifically, that those who
have
> Downs have the capacity to spiritually reach the highest levels and to
> inspire others to reach extraordinary heights.
>
> I was pained that some individuals, in reacting to this idea, even went so
> far as to state that those with Downs may not have been created in the
image
> of God.
>
> For some, spirituality is exclusively bound with the intellect.  Those of
> lesser intelligence are not viewed as having the capacity to have
spiritual
> depth.  The Forshpeis was an attempt to say that spirituality emerges from
> the whole being-not only from the mind, but also from the soul.  Those
with
> Downs may be blessed with the spiritual brilliance to become the greatest
> tsadikim or tsidkaniot of their generation.
>

--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> Almost as offensive as the original.


Please elaborate.

Kol tuv,
Moshe
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Need I say more?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Macho'o 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    11/18/1999 2:10 PM


Who exactly are these weak and meek? Perhaps we could found the Society to 
Protect the Weak and Meek for them?

As to Yitzchok Ovinu, how exactly is he to stand up and defend himself 
today?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659 
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

In a message dated 11/17/99 10:08:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

<< 
    Even if the SS argument held,  I don't consider this pile-up to be so
 tragic as to use its specter as a reason not to have takanos for simchos.
    So what if these items,  to the extent they are overdone, are limited
 by takanos?  Does anyone feel they absolutely must have a Lexus and it is
 a deprivation of their human rights for them to have to buy a Taurus?
 Unnecessary legislation if it ever lead to that,  yes;  tragic,  no.
  >>

What about a different slippery slope to wrry about? 
With all due respect to the lawyers, doctors, Computer scientists, et al, on 
this list, I would like to point out (once again) that takkanos have serious 
economic consequences for those vendors providing the threatened services to 
the community. A little awareness of the actual numbers are in order:

Weddings can run anywhere from $30 to $150 per person for the caterer, not 
counting the cost to make it in a big hotel. If you make a wedding for 300 
people, which nowadays is considered moderate, at a midpriced hall, like 
Marina Del Ray, you have to assume a minimum cost of around $24000 for the 
caterer alone. But 300 people is actually small for a place like that. 
The seven piece band for that wedding is going to run somewhere between $3000 
and $3800 for that affair. 

A wedding of 300 people in a fancy catering hall in Manhattan will cost 
around $60000 for the hall and caterer. The cost of the band will 
be....between $3000 and $3800 for seven musicians, assuming its on a 
weeknight.

My point is that the size of weddings is not the only factor involved in cost 
cutting, and not all weddings are created equal. Certainly not all wedding 
costs are created equal. I don't think there is anything wrong with big 
weddings. I don't think there is anything wrong with Bar Mitzvah parties. I 
think the issue is whether or not those extra expenses serve to prevent us 
from getting in touch with our spiritual selves.
So all you self righteous cost cutters, who are determined to cut "Yenems" 
simcha, keep in mind that when you do, you will sufficiently depress my 
$50,000 to $85,000 salary to the point where the next Yeshiva Scholarship you 
hand out, with much personal probing, and stripping of dignity, will be my 
children's.

It is not the having that is the problem, it is the wanting. Lets all join 
together to raise our spirituality, and stop looking in each others 
pocketbooks.

Jordan 

how so?

DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: Yitchak had Downs Syndrome!?!


> Almost as offensive as the original.
>
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
> http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
> To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 1:19 PM
> Subject: Re: Yitchak had Downs Syndrome!?!
>
>
> > The following, written by RAW, is going to appear in this week's Toras
> Aish.
> >
> > -mi
> >
> >
> >
> > AN ADDENDUM TO LAST WEEK'S FORSHPEIS ON DOWNS SYNDROME
> >
> > Last week's Forshpeis precipitated significant discussion. People have
> > misunderstood my words and as the author I assume full responsibility.
> The
> > purpose of that Dvar Torah was not to assert that Yitzhak (Isaac) had
> Downs
> > Syndrome.  That assertion has no basis.
> >
> > The intent of the Forshpeis was to indicate that from the perspective of
> > drush, Yitzhak possessed some characteristics that teach us something,
not
> > about Yitzhak, but about Downs Syndrome.  Specifically, that those who
> have
> > Downs have the capacity to spiritually reach the highest levels and to
> > inspire others to reach extraordinary heights.
> >
> > I was pained that some individuals, in reacting to this idea, even went
so
> > far as to state that those with Downs may not have been created in the
> image
> > of God.
> >
> > For some, spirituality is exclusively bound with the intellect.  Those
of
> > lesser intelligence are not viewed as having the capacity to have
> spiritual
> > depth.  The Forshpeis was an attempt to say that spirituality emerges
from
> > the whole being-not only from the mind, but also from the soul.  Those
> with
> > Downs may be blessed with the spiritual brilliance to become the
greatest
> > tsadikim or tsidkaniot of their generation.
> >
>
>

OK which Yitzchok Ovinu is more of a GADOL

The Yitachok that is concerned with his kovod 3500 years after his petiro

OR

The Yitzchok Oinu that has compassion for those unable to stand up fro 
themselves (such as those with Down Syndrome).

I imagine it's REALLY important for some people to strut around proud of 
themselves that they have set everyone straight re: Yitzchok's kovod

Somhow I see Yitzchok Ovinu as prefering to see people strut in pride that they 
have learned to comfort/appreciate hiss children, especially his children that 
need so much care.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Macho'o 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    11/18/1999 2:10 PM


Who exactly are these weak and meek? Perhaps we could found the Society to 
Protect the Weak and Meek for them?

As to Yitzchok Ovinu, how exactly is he to stand up and defend himself 
today?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659 
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 02:01:11 -0800
> From: SAMUEL A DREBIN <>
> Subject: Rabbi Twerski and Karl Marx

You wrote:
> 
><< 1)  Here is the poor Shlub in the Bais Hamikdash totally humiliated 
> in front of the entire Klal Yisroel in a place where we are supposed to

> be in awe of Hashem, and relalize his greatness. >>

	 The society envisioned by the halachos of korbonos is one in which
people realize that echad hamarbeh v'echad hamam'it.  In fact,  Rashi
mentions specifically that the mizbe'ach is to be sovea umehudar with the
korbon of an oni.

	I am not aware of any description of a situation where people were
embarrassed by bringing a korbon oni,  are you?  There *are* halachos on
what to do with specific korbonos where a rich person became poor at some
point in the proceedings.  Nobody suggested bringing the richer korbon in
all events to keep up appearances.

	Here I have to agree with RHM.  His solution to the overspending problem
is education.   The society of the Bais Hamikdash was to have achieved
the goal of not having anyone bring a korbon they couldn't afford solely
through education;   Rabban Gamliel's society couldn't.  Can ours? 

	Finally,  let's distinguish between korbonos,  a mitzvah,  contributions
(I have not heard anyone advocating gvirim limiting their contributions
to mosdos so aniyim will feel better),  a mitzvah,  and lavish weddings, 
at the utmost,  a reshus. 

You also wrote:

<<While we are at it we can eliminate the wedding problem completely by
assigning every jew a number (odds for boys and evens for girls). Then
the Gedolim could just match the numbers up and all the shiduchim
problems would disappear.>>

	Once upon a time there was a Matrunisa who tried that.  Didn't work,  if
I recall correctly.  The job remains that of the Ribbono Shel Olom.

	I agree here with RJR's observation re:  cognitive dissonance:  a
recurrent theme on this list has been that "daas Torah is a modern
invention",  "we don't need the Gedolim to tell us how to think",  etc.
and then we turn around and say let the Gedolim_______________(fill in
the blank).  If we want to be independent of the Gedolim in other areas, 
let's institute takanos ourselves.  If not,  let's listen if/when the
Gedolim issue them.

Finally,  you wrote:

<<> I would tell you about the central planning committee for the
> distribution of potato Kugel>>

	A wonderful idea;   it would prevent all those critical shortages of
potato kugel with criminal excesses of lukshen!

Gershon

actually there were Lubavitchers even in the time of the Tzemach Tzedek's 
passing who held it was still possible form him to be Moshiach so that is 
hardly over the line -- what is over the line, in my opinion is the stuff 
about the Rebbe concealing himself and bringing himself back and giving 
himself a heart attack Chof-Zayin Adar, etc.

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Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

In Avodah 4#138, MBerger responded:
> "All of kevudah" can be limited by limiting either word. While Hirsch and
I squirm out of this one... <
"Squirm" (which sounds like a b'di'avad)?  On the contrary, the printed
"Psalms" edition lists a makaf between the two words, and Rav SRH
translates and comments accordingly.  I.e., "kol k'vudah," as I tried to
say in an e-mail message to you, does *not* necessarily mean "all of..."
but rather "all-...," with significant implications for the understanding
of the verse.
> So giving Hirsch's spin to the "derashah" (really asmachta), all of a
woman's
religious riches are in the home, not the community. That doesn't mean
that's
where all of her religion or all of her life should be. <
So let's be clear: your point, echoing RavSRH's commentary, is based on
RavSRH's *translation*, which differs from the one(s) that has been
mentioned by all participants thus far (and please forgive me, Micha, if
you did mention it somewhere -- I don't recall seeing it).

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:42:33 EST
> From: Broasters@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #138
> 
> << Which means that if there is 50/50 chance that Eisav will die first
> then 
>  the expected value of the birthright is 1/2 times the actual value of the
> 
>  birthright (it is a Bernoulli random variable).  Considering that Ya'akov
> 
>  was a tzadik and Eisav was a rasha you might assign a higher probability
> to 
>  Eisav's dying first which would raise the expected value of the
> birthright. 
> >>
> 
> Just for the thrill of finally having some professional knowledge of the 
> topic being discussed, I would point out that the bechora would be
> worthless 
> if either Esav or Ya'acov were to die before Yitzchak.  If Esav died
> first, 
> then Ya'acov gets everything even without the bechora, and if Ya'acov died
> 
> first, then his purchase is irrelevant.
> 
> I trust that Micha will allow me to post this without referring to
> actuarial 
> tables - my Bowers is at work.  However, I do think that the odds are not 
> 50/50, since Yitzchak had sixty years on both Ya'acov and Esav, and was
> much 
> more likely to die before either.
	My apologies to all the non-actuaries out there, but I couldn't sit
here and not add in my 2 cents.

	Wouldn't you have to give some weight to the fact that Eisav might
do Teshuva (following in the footsteps of his Uncle Yishmael) and
consequently the probability of dying first would decrease. (Of course
figuring out the probability of a rasha like Eisav doing teshuva might not
be so simple)

As I too misunderstood RCB's post, I e-mailed him privately, to which he 
responded, I enclose part of his response with his permision.

Subj:    RE: Yitzchak revisited
Date:   11/18/99 11:55:53 AM Eastern Standard Time
From:   charlesf.brown@gs.com (Brown, Charles.F)
To: Yzkd@aol.com ('Yzkd@aol.com'), cmarkowitz@scor.com ('cmarkowitz@scor.com')


Everytime we come back to this I get a headache, so you can forward what I
wrote to the list if you like or forward it to whomever misunderstood or
whatever.  

>>>I don't understand what was misunderstood, as I didn't write anything about
selfishness - I did write about being focussed inwardly on oneself and how
that impacts avodah.  One can be very inwardly focussed and not be a selfish
person, e.g. an introverted person who cares for others, and one can do so
much chessed but do it with the intent of gaining glory and fame so that it
becomes a selfish endeavor. (I'll write the obvious - my examples are just
to illustrate that the terms chessed is not an antonym, nor din a synonym,
for hisbatlus - I'm not reflecting on Avraham in that last sentence. I am
trying to illustate that selfishness is a different trait than being an
introvert or extrovert.  Avraham acheived hisbatlus through chessed.)  C.
Markowitz said tefillah-hisbatlus=din=Yitzchak.  I would say
chessed=hispashtus=tefilla for kavod Shamayim to fill the world=Avraham.
Tefillah has both aspects - hisbatlus of one's person, but also a request
for hispahtus of the Shchina - Chaim M. drew attention to the former, I to
the latter, but they go hand in hand.  Tefillah is no more particularly
related to Yitzchak than Avraham, so it doesn't answer fully the question he
raised to begin with, namely why the Torah records the tefillah of Yitzchak
and not of Avraham.  R' Dessler discusses in Mictav M'Eliyahu II:190-204
these 2 derachim at length, also l'gabi the machlokes B"H and B"SH by neiros
Chanukah.<<<

--- Alan Davidson <perzvi@hotmail.com> wrote:
> actually there were Lubavitchers even in the time of the Tzemach
> Tzedek's 
> passing who held it was still possible form him to be Moshiach so
> that is 
> hardly over the line -- what is over the line, in my opinion is the
> stuff 
> about the Rebbe concealing himself and bringing himself back and
> giving 
> himself a heart attack Chof-Zayin Adar, etc.
> 

Even believing that should not cause the believer to be oved avodah
zara (I assume that the issue of A"Z is the basis for R. Elyashiv's
psak).  I would think that in order to be oved A"Z, one would have to
worship the Lubavitcher Rebbe as a deity.

Kol tuv,
Moshe
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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

	Note: This is from Brown, Charles.F [SMTP:charlesf.brown@gs.com]
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Brown, Charles.F [SMTP:charlesf.brown@gs.com]
> Sent:	Thursday, November 18, 1999 3:34 PM
> To:	'cmarkowitz@scor.com'
> Subject:	please pass to avodah 
> 
> " Yitzchak, however, is blind both physically as well as emotionally to
> the
> world outside and is drawn to prayer only through being aware of his
> personal needs and wants. - -CB" 
> MACHA!!! With all due respect I am at loss as to how one can say this? Do
> u
> have a source? Do your hands not tremble when you type such things??? 
> Hmmm.  Well, if you need sources, I believe the Torah explicitely mentions
> that Yitzchak was blind.  I admit embellishment of derush to blindness
> other
> than the literal type - it works well if you assume Eisav really was sly
> enough to trick him.   I also believe the Torah explicitely mentions that
> he
> davened not for the social good of a place like Sdom or for Avimelech as
> Avraham did, but rather for a son - Avraham's tefillos were for society,
> Yitzchak's for his home.  Avraham's avodah was b'derech hispashtus to
> bring
> the Shchina to the world at large, Yitzchak's avodah was through tzimtzum,
> to bring down the Shchina through being metakein his own personal life,
> which in this case involved not having children.  
> Can you believe I had the gall to paraphrase the text of the Torah itself
> and draw an implicit inference?  
> Halevai I should be part of the humble and meek club, but in this case I
> would like a clarification or retraction.
> -Chaim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

> 1)  Here is the poor Shlub in the Bais Hamikdash totally humiliated in
> front of the entire Klal Yisroel in a place where we are supposed to be
> in awe of Hashem, and relalize his greatness.  Why bring a sin offering
> at all?  The embarassment should be enough punishment.  
> 
> 2) The Kohanim were dependent on the various Matonos which they
> collected. While I'm sure that Hashem appreciates the flour Korbon as
> much as the ox korbon, something tells me that The Kohanim were more
> interested in filling the freezer with steaks and flanken then with Mr.
> Dal's puny offering, and probably gave the rich guy better service and
> greater respect.
> 
> 3) EEsh KI'matnas Yado KIbeerkas hashem......   Some people have more
> then others and the Torah doesnt discourage enjoying it. ( Provided that
> the ger yasom and Almonah are provided for.
> 
> This does not include the various expensive gifts donated to the Bais
> Hamikdash By THE RICH PEOPLE.  Aren't we all supposed to feel humble 
> contrite and EQUAL in G-d'S house?

Read Yeshayahu 1 among other passages in Tanakh.
Read Tehillim 51.

--- richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> OK which Yitzchok Ovinu is more of a GADOL
> 
> The Yitachok that is concerned with his kovod 3500
> years after his petiro
> 
> OR
> 
> The Yitzchok Oinu that has compassion for those
> unable to stand up fro 
> themselves (such as those with Down Syndrome).
> 
> I imagine it's REALLY important for some people to
> strut around proud of 
> themselves that they have set everyone straight re:
> Yitzchok's kovod
> 
> Somhow I see Yitzchok Ovinu as prefering to see
> people strut in pride that they 
> have learned to comfort/appreciate hiss children,
> especially his children that 
> need so much care.
> 
> Rich Wolpoe
> 
> 
> ______________________________ Reply Separator
> _________________________________
> Subject: Re: Macho'o 
> Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
> Date:    11/18/1999 2:10 PM
> 
> 
> Who exactly are these weak and meek? Perhaps we
> could found the Society to 
> Protect the Weak and Meek for them?
> 
> As to Yitzchok Ovinu, how exactly is he to stand up
> and defend himself 
> today?
> 
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago,
> IL 60659 
> http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org


C'mon. Let's get over it. Yitzchak Avinu was a Tzadik
beyond anyone's ability to even fathom it. Who dares
to denigrate this great Patriarch?  No one. I think
everyone on this list has the same degree of Kavod for
the Avos. It would be ridiculous to say otherwise.  I
defend RAW for his "drasha" even though I think it is
a major stretch to read "Downs syndrome" features in
to his behavior, even if it acknowledges that Yitzchok
Avinu did NOT actually have Downs Syndrome. RAW's
intentions are honorable here. It just seems to rub
many of us the wrong way when anyone mentions a
Patriarch, and a disability of this nature in the same
sentence.  

Let's not "see" what isn't really there just to make a
point about how to treat those who are less fortunate.
There are real sources that can do an infinitely
better job at this.

HM
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--- TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:
>I would like to point out (once again) that takkanos
> have serious 
> economic consequences for those vendors providing the threatened
> services to 
> the community. 
<snip>
>I don't think there is anything wrong with
> big 
> weddings. I don't think there is anything wrong with Bar Mitzvah
> parties. I 
> think the issue is whether or not those extra expenses serve to
> prevent us 
> from getting in touch with our spiritual selves.
> So all you self righteous cost cutters, who are determined to cut
> "Yenems" 
> simcha, keep in mind that when you do, you will sufficiently
> depress my 
> $50,000 to $85,000 salary to the point where the next Yeshiva
> Scholarship you 
> hand out, with much personal probing, and stripping of dignity,
> will be my 
> children's.

There are two issues here: (1) the materialistic impulses which have
been adopted by the Orthodox community; (2) the "keeping up with the
Jones" aspect of weddings (and other items).  With regard to the
former, I agree with RJH that a lavish wedding hosted by a wealthy
individual is not necessarily lacking spirituality.  However, R.
Twersky was dealing primarily with the latter--i.e., people who
*can't* really afford these extravagances but do so anyway because
this is what's done in our circles.  

Now, in order to deal with #2, it is possible that even wealthy
individuals will have to limit their wedding expenditures.  There is
no doubt that caterers, musicians and others will be unfairly hurt as
a result.  But that too must have been the result of R. Gamliel's
takanah regarding funerals!  I would think that the advantage to
society as a whole would not be outweighed by the disadvantage to
individuals.  (Perhaps there could be a ten-year phase-in of the
takanah to allow caterers and others to find different professions.)

Often, when laws are changed (e.g., tax laws, tariffs on imports),
there are those whose livelihoods are negatively affected. 
Legislation would be stymied if there were a requirement not to harm
those who benefit from the status quo.

Personally, I would not want any takanah to affect the number of
musicians at a wedding.  :-)  They're the ones who encourage the
ruach of the wedding, which is the most important aspect.

Kol tuv,
Moshe
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