Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 139

Thursday, November 18 1999

• Re: 770
• RE: Response to R. Aaron Twersky Article in the JO
• 770
• Re: Avodah V4 #138
• re: Response to R. Aaron Twersky Article in the JO
• Rebbes etc
• simplicity
• Lubavitch Hashgacha
• Re: simplicity
• Rabbi Twerski and Karl Marx
• "Kol K'vudah"
• RE:
• Bechora
• Yitzchak revisited
• Takonos
• re: Response to R. Aaron Twersky Article in the JO
• Macho'o
• Re: Response to R. Aaron Twersky Article in the JO
• Re: Macho'o

--- Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com> wrote:
> I got two offlist responses to my question about
> what is going on in 770.
>  Why is this not for public knowledge?
> 
> Gershon
> 
You must have sent your query to me off list because
all I did was press my reply button.

HM

=====

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From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Once you start limiting, by Takana, in one area based
> on someone else's notion of what's an appropriate
> amount,  then there is no end as to what can
> ultimately be limited.  Why stop with weddings?  Let's
> make a Takanah about clothes!  No one can spend more
> than a predetermined limit on clothes per year.  How
> about entertainment? How much can we spend on that?
> (Should we spend anyhting?)  What about travel
> expenses... let's limit that.  How many time a year am
> I allowed to go to Israel?  Once? Twice? Maybe only
> every other year? How many cars can I own?  What's my
> dollar limit on a new car purchase?  Maybe we should
> forbid new car purchases and only allow used car
> purchases. Maybe we should all be made to take public
> transportation all the time.
> 
> I've said it before: It's a slippery slope my friends.

While there is an aspect of slippery slope, my guess is that it would be
unlikely for Gedolim to roll down it that easily.  I wonder, for example,
how the various Chasidic communities which have enacted takanot have fared.
Has there been a slippery slope of takanot?  (Anyone know?)

I wonder, though about the slippery slope the other way.  When people find
that they can't spend their money on weddings, they'll start keeping up with
the Joneses (Cohens) on shteitels, cars, etc.  It's like plugging holes in
the tax code; you plug one up and others are discovered (I know; I'm a tax
attorney).  Again, what is the experience of the various Chasidic
communities which have enacted takanot?

Ultimately, it is important to educate people to avoid falling into the
materialistic trap encouraged by Madison Avenue.  While rabbanim (such as
Rabbi Wolpin in the article from JO) and yeshivot have tried to teach us,
they have been far from successful.  I wonder whether there might be room
for enacting takanot on a rotating basis (i.e., in the 1990s weddings, in
the 2000s cars, etc.) so as to serve as a tool for education.  Actually
being forced to cramp our styles might have greater impact on our thought
processes than mere drashot (after all, this is the whole concept of mitzvot
ma'asi'yot).  Any thoughts?

Kol tuv,
Moshe

Being one of the off-list responses Gershon Dubin refers to, here is why I 
wrote an off-list response:

(1) As most folks (at least within Lubavitch are aware), the shul at 770 is 
mostly controlled and populated by one faction of Lubavitchers -- especially 
on shabbos and yomtov;  the movement's offices elsewhere in 770 are not 
controlled by these folks.  It is almost as if the more hard-core 
meshichisten see some symbolic power in controlling 770 since it was and 
still is the Rebbe's shul and it is the shul which most non-Lubavitchers 
think of when they think of Lubavitch;

(2) This faction is not and should not be construed as representative of the 
Lubavitch population in Crown Heights and worldwide -- it would be similar 
to the Eidah folks seizing control of the YU Beis Medrash and sending Rabbi 
Shachter and co. elsewhere;

(3) whether what goes on there is avodah-zarah I am not on a level to judge 
-- I myself do feel uncomfortable there -- the main reason why there is 
hesitancy to do something about it is there is a sentiment that these folks 
are still recovering from Gimmel Tammuz and you can't very well write the 
Rebbe's own shul out of the movement even if you wanted to.

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In a message dated 11/17/1999 6:35:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, Gil Student 
writes:

<< Which means that if there is 50/50 chance that Eisav will die first then 
 the expected value of the birthright is 1/2 times the actual value of the 
 birthright (it is a Bernoulli random variable).  Considering that Ya'akov 
 was a tzadik and Eisav was a rasha you might assign a higher probability to 
 Eisav's dying first which would raise the expected value of the birthright. 
>>

Just for the thrill of finally having some professional knowledge of the 
topic being discussed, I would point out that the bechora would be worthless 
if either Esav or Ya'acov were to die before Yitzchak.  If Esav died first, 
then Ya'acov gets everything even without the bechora, and if Ya'acov died 
first, then his purchase is irrelevant.

I trust that Micha will allow me to post this without referring to actuarial 
tables - my Bowers is at work.  However, I do think that the odds are not 
50/50, since Yitzchak had sixty years on both Ya'acov and Esav, and was much 
more likely to die before either.

Okay, I feel fulfilled now.  Back to takkanos.

Meyer

RHM wrote: <<
Once again I agree there is a problem.  I do not agree
with R. Twerski's proposed solution: Takanos.   >>

One important point in the article was that takanos are not R.
Twerski's personal solution or some modern-day invention.
Rather, they  are a venerable tradition from Chazal's time,
as shown in the various examples from the Gemara.

< Why stop with weddings?  Let's make a Takanah about clothes!  >

As far as limitation on clothes are concerned, the idea is not
so far-fetched:  many schools in Israel enforce some form of
"l'vush achid" to prevent kids from competing with each other
over clothing styles and straining their parents' budgets.

At my sons' cheder in Rechasim, when a class goes on a tiyul,
a note is sent to parents requesting them not to supply the kids with
all kinds of (exotic) sweets, in order to avoid provoking the envy of
kids from poorer families.   Instead, the cheder itself provides the
refreshments for all the kids.

I think it is clear from the examples in the article that the halacha is
willing to sacrifice the personal caprices of the individual (as 
sacrosanct as they may be in Western society) for the sake and
honor of the klal, and to develop in us basic middos of sensitivity,
compassion, and consideration of others' feelings.

Kol tuv,
Shlomo Godick

From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>

Jerry Schachter <schachte@netvision.net.il>  wrote:
Subject: Rebbes, etc.
>>>>In fact, the case in the (larger) Chassidic communities in Galicia/Hungary/Romania
>>>>was that there was a separate person in each of the following positions

>>>>Rav - paskin sheilos, set policy, supervise the shochet
There were dozens (if not hundreds - see A. Fuchs' book on this
subject) of Yeshivos in Hungary/Rumania/Czechoslovakia where
the Rav was also the Rosh Yeshiva. Some that come to mind:
Pressburg, Galanta, Nitra, Kashau, Unsdorf, Szerdehely, Chust,
Sopron, Veitzen, Pupa, Kalev, Szemihaly,  etc etc

>>>>Rebbe - conduct tisch, give berachos and advise.....The
>>>>late Satmar Rebbe, for instance, was the Rav;
He was also a Rosh Yeshiva for hundreds of  Talimidim .
Similarly the Rabbonim/Rebbes of Munkatch and Sighet held all 3 postions.

>>>>Rosh haKohol - levy and collect the kahal tax, supervise the kahal....
An elected position - usually a weathy Baal Habayis.

SBA

> From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Response to R. Aaron Twersky Article in the JO

	(Interesting that the two responses to the article which made it into
this digest used the phrase "putting in two cents")

	Now that my previous discussion with RHM offlist, wherein we agreed to
disagree,   has made it on list,   an observation or two.  You say

<< Though I would never want legislation on it I do think
> we can start with Bar/Bas Mitzvahs.>>

	So if I may paraphrase a famous retort from Winston Churchill to Lady
Astor,  we are now haggling over price. 

	Since we are,  I think it worthwhile to correct your reading of the
article.  Unfortunately,  your characterization of the $85/yr earner as a
professional who has little time for family obligations,  missed the
point of this group.  The professionals earn much more;  **this**   group
is the one who "should be making it and is not" in Dr. Twerski's words. 
Since this is,  per his analysis,  a group which is not expected to have
drastically higher earning power in the future,  this is one of the
hardest hit by the situation.  Please reread to confirm this.

	You argue that making takanos puts us onto a slippery slope.  Aside from
the fact that this is the most overused cliche on this list,  it does not
apply here.  The SS argument assumes that allowing the camel's nose under
the tent,  to mix a metaphor,  is dangerous because of what it could lead
to.   The crash at the end of your SS is

<<>  Let's make a Takanah about clothes!  No one can spend more
> than a predetermined limit on clothes per year.  How
> about entertainment? How much can we spend on that?
> (Should we spend anyhting?)  What about travel
> expenses... let's limit that.  How many time a year am
> I allowed to go to Israel?  Once? Twice? Maybe only
> every other year? How many cars can I own?  What's my
> dollar limit on a new car purchase?  Maybe we should
> forbid new car purchases and only allow used car
> purchases. Maybe we should all be made to take public
> transportation all the time.>>

	I disagree that limiting simchos costing in the tens of thousands of
dollars,  which IS a problem,  as you admit,  will lead to limiting other
expenditures costing at the most,  a few thousands of dollars which,
AFAIK,  nobody considers a problem at present.  The segue is
unconvincing.

	Even if the SS argument held,  I don't consider this pile-up to be so
tragic as to use its specter as a reason not to have takanos for simchos.
   So what if these items,  to the extent they are overdone, are limited
by takanos?  Does anyone feel they absolutely must have a Lexus and it is
a deprivation of their human rights for them to have to buy a Taurus?
Unnecessary legislation if it ever lead to that,  yes;  tragic,  no.

You write further that:

<<> Any Bar Mitzvah that extends beyond the day of Shabbos
> itself  is far too lavish no matter what one's income
> is.  There is no need to make a Bar Mitzvah that looks
> like a wedding.  A sit down kiddush after davening
> should be the extent of it.  After kiddush, everyone
> goes home to their own Shabbos Seudah. We need a sense
> of proportion here.  A Bar Mitzvah is not a wedding.>>

	Hark,  I hear a takana!!

Gershon

(Please note: It is the general policy of email groups such as Avodah, to
avoid discussions of reliability of specific kashrus agencies. I believe
this discussion to be an exception to that rule, because we are not
discussing subjective issues of reliability and reputation, but objective
issues of specific shitos followed by members of a specific group. It is
analogous to discussing the sale of Israeli land for Shemitta, and the
hashgachos which do or do not accept that. - Akiva Miller)

R' Harry Maryles asked <<< There is a caterer here in Chicago that has a
Mashiachist as it's Mashgiach Timidi.  Can one eat from this caterer? >>>

R' Gil Student wrote <<< I talked to a friend who has done some shechitah
.... if one is sick a shochet from one of the other hashogochos is called
in to replace him.  He specifically said that there is no way to know
whether chicken is slaughtered by a Lubavitcher shochet or not. >>>

These situations are very different. The first is a case of ne'emanus.
The second affects the kashrus of the food itself.

If a meshichist is a mashgiach for a caterer, I don't know if he should
be any less trustworthy now than someone in the same situation ten or 100
years ago. Granted he has some radical views about Moshiach, but don't we
have a principle that "a mumar for one mitzvah is still believed for
other mitzvos"?

On the other hand, the mitzvah we're talking about here is Avodah Zara,
and one who crosses THAT line loses his ne'emanus for all mitzvos. If
someone follows the recently-quoted psak against answering "amen" to a
meshichist, why would he think that the halacha allows us to rely on his
kashrus supervision?

But the shochet is a much more serious situation. Before we were talking
about relying on information *about* the food; now we're talking about
the food itself. If (and I stress the *if*) an individual has crossed the
line to Avodah Zara, then the food he shechts is nonkosher from the very
beginning. This is not a question of trustworthiness any more. This
relates to the inherent nature of the food. And it also applies to the
wine he touches, the cheese he coagulates, and the food (bishul akum)
that he cooks.

I will echo someone's recent question, asking at what point a meshichist
crosses the line to Avoda Zara. Does he have to actually pray to the
Rebbe, or is it enough to simply believe that he even *might* be
Moshiach, or somewhere in between? I do not know the answer, but I
certainly don't feel comfortable drinking Chabad wine or eating Chabad
meat anymore. Remember that we are *not* talking about the policies and
reliability of the supervisory organization here, but the Jewishness of
the individual shochet, and of the people who touch the wine.

On a related issue, I would take with a grain of salt the suggestion that
<<< there is no way to know whether chicken is slaughtered by a
Lubavitcher shochet or not. >>> Different hashgachos have different
policies. The same people might do shechita for several different
organizations, but I would like to think that each organization has some
sort of minimal training for each shochet, to train him in both the
chumros of that group (so that substandard chickens are not accepted) and
in the group's kulos as well (so that kosher chickens are not discarded
needlessly). And I would hope that in the course of such training, they'd
also check the individuals references - general yiras shamayim, care and
accuracy of the shechita, and nowadays, heretical views as well. Call me
naive, but that's how I would expect these things are run.

Akiva Miller

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Let us remember the recent Daf Yomi Gemara in Chagiga: "Ya'eh Anyiusa
l'Yisroel". While I do not think it is to be tajken literally, I think it
does indicate that simplicity is a good thing.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

First of all HM, Los Angeles is the Second largest city in the US (jewish
community as well), not Chicago.

With regard to R' Twersky's take on Takanos Etc., I offer the following
thoughts.

In Va'yikrah the torah outlines The VARIOUS korbanos brought by
individuals (olah , shlomim ) It seems to me that the rich People brought
BIG,EXPENSIVE korbonos ( cattle), and the poor people (oni and dal.  Gee!
does the Torah have to be so cruel ? You may as well call them shlemeel
and Shlamazel!) brought CHEAP 	kORBANOS. (flour, birds).

1)  Here is the poor Shlub in the Bais Hamikdash totally humiliated in
front of the entire Klal Yisroel in a place where we are supposed to be
in awe of Hashem, and relalize his greatness.  Why bring a sin offering
at all?  The embarassment should be enough punishment.  

2) The Kohanim were dependent on the various Matonos which they
collected. While I'm sure that Hashem appreciates the flour Korbon as
much as the ox korbon, something tells me that The Kohanim were more
interested in filling the freezer with steaks and flanken then with Mr.
Dal's puny offering, and probably gave the rich guy better service and
greater respect.

3) EEsh KI'matnas Yado KIbeerkas hashem......   Some people have more
then others and the Torah doesnt discourage enjoying it. ( Provided that
the ger yasom and Almonah are provided for.

This does not include the various expensive gifts donated to the Bais
Hamikdash By THE RICH PEOPLE.  Aren't we all supposed to feel humble 
contrite and EQUAL in G-d'S house?

While we are at it we can eliminate the wedding problem completely by
assigning every jew a number (odds for boys and evens for girls). Then
the Gedolim could just match the numbers up and all the shiduchim
problems would disappear.

I would tell you about the central planning committee for the
distribution of potato Kugel, as well as the seven year plan (no, not daf
yomi) to improve the trains that don't run, but its late and Orwell is
dead so.........


In all seriousness, if the Gedolim are so eager to get involved, they
might take a look at the "organized crime" practices as they relate to
Matzo and esrogim as well as the anti-trust? CRIMES exercised by certain
kosher wine producers. One can only wonder why this hasn't happened yet
(It's pretty obvious isn't it?.  Save me the R' Heinamen. It didn't worK

Shmuel Akiva Drebin-poor capitalist pig
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In Avodah V4 #138, Chana Luntz responded to my post regarding the
pronounciation an translation of "kol k'vudah" with an erudite analysis of
the meanings of "'honour", "splendor", "grace", "glory" and the difficulty
of using midern English (or American?) to fit the original Hebrew.

While I agree with the entire analysis (I think), my point is that we don't
have the right to derive or interpolate meaning - even by way of translation
- into Torah which was not taught to us by the Rishonim.

The word "k'vudah" is not derived from "kavod" (honor, respect, glory), but
from "kaveid" (bounty according to some parshanim, or splendor according to
others) as in [Bereishis 13:2] "vAvram kaveid me'od". (But, I guess, if we
can chalila suppose that Yitzchock had Down's, Avraham could have been very
overweight.)

(I should add that addition of the word chalila above refers to the
abomination of our supposition to that effect, not chalila to the
abomination of any Yiddish Kindt who was chosen by his Creator to be born
with Down's.)

Thanks for the pointer. I don't suppose you have a copy of your article that
you could e-mail me? I've never seen a copy of Torah uMadda.

TIA

Akiva





===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-avodah@aishdas.org [mailto:owner-avodah@aishdas.org]On
> Behalf Of Jacob J Schacter
> Sent: 04 November 1999 14:11
> To: micha@aishdas.org
> Subject:
>
>
> Regarding the Netziv and secular studies in Volozhin, see my extensive
> article in the second issue of The Torah u-Madda Journal.
> JJ Schacter
>

FWIW here's my spin or 2.

Eisav comes in from the field actuing quite uncouth - "hal'iteini.."

Yaakov realizes that this guy is not refined enough for the Bechora so he says 
sit down to the soup and sell me the bechora. AS I see it Yaakov was not 
swapping the Bechora for the lentils, he was sitting down to negotiate it for 
it over dinner.  (Similarly, Avimelech sealed a deal wit hYitzchok over 
dinner). 
Q why was dinner bean stew instead of meat stew? 
A: The aveilus for Avorhom Avinu, etc.

Q: What WAS the price of the Bechora
A: ZERO.  Eisav tossed it at him, not in TRADE for teh stwe, but out of disgust 
for the entire process.  Eisav was in a huff and didn't wish to be bothered 
with details, he wanted to EAT NOW!

Q: So why did Eisav resent Yaakov over the sale?
A: Because the coll, calm collected Yaakov took advantage of Esiav's extreme 
emotional state of "feeling starved", and when Eisav finally clamed down, he 
realized he'd been "cheated" in the sense that he did not sell it out of a 
fully commited diposoition, rthare because he was in a "wild-man" mood and was 
thoroughly focused upon eating.

Mussar Heskeil
When you get an agreement from somebody, it's not their words alone that should 
conlude a kinyan.  Wait until they really wish to deal in their hearts 
otehrwise you will engender resentment.  This happens many times in 
cross-cultrual business agreements that one side feels "cheated" even though 
they agreed, because they were simply outmaneuvered by a very calm patient 
adversary.  Also think of the mis-unsdestanding between the Europeans and the 
American Indiams wrt to selling terriroty in America.  The Indians wer not 
co-erced so much as taken advantage of.

Mitzad hadin Yaakov was perfectly ok in what he did. Lifnim mishuras hadin, he, 
should have deferred the neogotiaion until Eisav could hav calmed down.

Of course what if a calm Eisav would not have complied? Or had he exacted an 
unreasonably exorbitant price?

And this leads us to Yitzchok - Gam Boruch Yihyeh.  Perhaps seeing Eisav's true 
colors (vayeivk?)  he understands how it is that Rivko always leaned towards 
Yaakov, that Eisav indeed was flawed becaue of his very nature as having a 
potential to be "wild".  IOW Yitzchok sees that Eisav is not always a devoted 
son but is a highly unstable person - a optential hothead.  (indeed confirmed 
by yikrevu yemi eivle ovi...)

Bottom line, Yaakov did not sell the Bechora for Adoshim.  Eisav in a ravenous 
moment discarded it in order not to dsictract himself from satisfying his lust 
for a bite to eat.

Rich Wolpoe

   

 " Yitzchak, however, is  blind both physically as well as emotionally to the
world outside and is drawn to prayer only through being aware of his personal
needs and wants.

- -CB"

     MACHA!!! With all due respect I am at loss as to how one can say this?  Do
u have a source?  Do your hands not tremble when you type such things???

          Moshe Luchins

It seems that one point has been neglected in the
discussion of tsnies and the takones that were
suggested in the posted article: the fact (okay,
it's just a supposition) that in the frum community
more people are able to have large families, and
the families are larger. On the one hand it's
a brokhe. On the other hand it leads to consequences
which might be at the root of economic problems
in these communities. Combine this with the failure
of some communities (i.e., the same ones with large
families) to educate their children in a profession,
and you see where the institution of takones might
not be enough to address economic hardship.

Sholem Berger

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--- Shlomo Godick <shlomog@mehish.co.il> wrote:

> I think it is clear from the examples in the article
> that the halacha is
> willing to sacrifice the personal caprices of the
> individual (as 
> sacrosanct as they may be in Western society) for
> the sake and
> honor of the klal, and to develop in us basic middos
> of sensitivity,
> compassion, and consideration of others' feelings.

Who is going to set the standard?  How much of our
behavior is going to be controlled by these Takanos? 
Isn't Judaism hard enough? Do we really need more
Takanos to violate?

Takanos are not the answer. As R. Twerski indicated,
many of our Gedolei Yisroel won't decree Takanos
because they know that they will be honored more in
the breach.  

Re-education of society is the answer.

Why punish the wealthy? Let them enjoy their wealth.  

HM
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I am intrigued how some zealously stand up for Yitzhock's honor. and soemtimes 
for Hashem's honor too.  Intrigues because I figure Yitachok Ovinu and KvCH 
Hashem can pretty much stand-up and defend their own honor. Who stands up for 
the honor of those who've been slighted or insulted who are to weak or too meek 
to stand up for themselves?  THOSE are the kinds of zealots I'd love to meet.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Yitzchak revisited 


 " Yitzchak, however, is  blind both physically as well as emotionally to the
world outside and is drawn to prayer only through being aware of his personal 
needs and wants.

- -CB"

     MACHA!!! With all due respect I am at loss as to how one can say this?  Do
u have a source?  Do your hands not tremble when you type such things???

          Moshe Luchins

In a message dated 11/18/99 1:31:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< 
 Takanos are not the answer. As R. Twerski indicated,
 many of our Gedolei Yisroel won't decree Takanos
 because they know that they will be honored more in
 the breach.  
 
 Re-education of society is the answer.
  >>
I agree with your answer but am not sure that Takanos would not be a part of 
the reeducation process.  It's also unfortunate that we always look to "them" 
(in this case Gedolei Yisrael) to solve our problems.  In this case, it 
wouldn't hurt for lay leadership to actually lead.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

PS Am I the only one who is struck by the cognitive dissonance of our emunat 
chachamim/daat tora/whatever term you want to use and the seeming agreement 
among all stripes on this list that such a takkana is likely to be ignored?

PPS Is anyone aware of anything written on why in early generations(eg times 
of the gemora) it was possible to have a gezera that wasn't nitpashet -- did 
people just ignore them?

Who exactly are these weak and meek? Perhaps we could found the Society to
Protect the Weak and Meek for them?

As to Yitzchok Ovinu, how exactly is he to stand up and defend himself
today?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

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