Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 115

Saturday, November 6 1999

• Re: Shabbos Guests
• Focus of Avodas Hashem
• Mitzvos Aseh shehaZeman Gerama
• Re: Rambam and asceticism
• Kol Kevodah Bas Melech Penimah
• TUM & Chassidus, Simcha, Shiduchim
• Was Rambam and Asceticism, Now Chassidim, Asceticism and Chochmos Chitzoniyos
• Re: Was Rambam and Asceticism, Now Chassidim, Asceticism and Chochmos Chitzoniyos
• Re: Was Rambam and Asceticism, Now Chassidim, Asceticism and Chochmos Chitzoniyos
• [none]
• Conspicuous Consumption
• Re: Rambam and Asceticism and Torah U'Madda
• Special Yeshiva

In message , Carl M. Sherer <csherer@netvision.net.il> writes
>Now I would look at something like that and say that if a guy 
>wouldn't be interested in you because your shirt was slightly 
>creased, he has ridiculous standards and why bother with him. 

Now if you were not a married man but a girl of a certain age the stock
response to such a comment would be "Don't you think you are a being a
bit too fussy?"  

Because unfortunately while the theory is all about penimus, the reality
is so often about externals.

But the case I was describing it wasn't really a question of whether the
guy would or would not be interested in a girl with a creased shirt, but
whether the shadchan (ie neighbour upstairs) would be prepared to set me
up with a good quality boy if she saw such an infraction!

I think Moshe Feldman commented that what I am describing is not across
the frum spectrum but only in the right wing, but I disagree.  While
familial checking may be more right wing behaviour, and the ideal MO
shidduch might be two people who meet in a relaxed social atmosphere and
hit it off - the reality is that you are often just as dependant on
contacts and the judgement of those contacts (and after a certain stage,
with nothing on the horizon, most MO will also turn to professional
shadchanim).  In that case, if anything, the crumpled shirt syndrome may
be more prevelant - after all, the shadchan doesn't know you or your
parents from adam, and doesn't carry out a yichus type of check, so all
they have to judge you on is how you "perform" in their contacts with
you.  And with your informal shadchanim, eg your shabbas hosts, that
same rule applies, if they were to like me (eg because I cleared the
table afterwards) maybe they would set me up with this guy they know,
and like, but if they doesn't (eg because my shirt is crumpled) maybe
they won't.

>As a parent with a daughter approaching shidduch age (and with 
>nieces who are at shidduch age), I can tell you that is very difficult 
>for a parent to do. Not because you're in such a rush for your child 
>to get married off but because in the back of your mind you wonder 
>how many opportunities have slipped by. I know parents who are 
>perfectly calm until a girl hits 22 or 23 and then all of a sudden 
>they're asking people to daven for their daughter to find a shidduch. 
>Lo aleinu....
>

I am not suggesting it is easy.  But think about it.  Here you have your
whole world telling you are nothing without a shidduch, and everybody
else is getting married and you are still the single dancing at their
wedding.  The whole experience is, basically, soul distroying. If even
your own parents effectively tell you you are clearly not a worthwhile
person (because a worthwhile person would have found a shidduch by now)
can you imagine what kind of burden that creates.

I have known numbers of girls whom I can best describe as ghosts, living
in a holding position while waiting for that illusive shidduch. And I
know some who have done that for 10-15 years.  And this is across the
spectrum.  Yes the holding pattern kicks in later for MO, because they
are expected to go to college, so that they are not really just
"holding" until they finish college, while the holding may start earlier
for others, the pattern is the same.  On the other hand, others use the
time they never expected to have to do other things and develop fuller
lives than they would otherwise have had.  Of course, the danger with
the latter approach is that you may be making yourself even less
marriagable than you were before and the girl has to have the self
confidence to face and take that risk.

Again, whether she does or not, from what I can see, has little to do
with which "wing" she comes from, and more to do with what kind of
support she gets from her family.  In theory, being allowed to be
different is something the MO should find easier to cope with, but when
faced with the reality, I don't think that it true.  I have known enough
Stern girls in holding positions.  In some cases, because of the
expectations that they would marry a professional man with sufficient
financial clout to support them, such girls may in fact be less inclined
to forge their own way than your RW girl who expects to marry somebody
in full time learning and therefore need to add to the family finances
and who at least can go about preparing herself for the second part
while waiting for the first.

>> But most of your Sem girls are fully within the system - and unlike me,
>> they generally do not have, and do not expect to have, any other
>> interests in their lives besides their home or any other identity
>> besides wife and mother.  
>
>I'm not sure that's right. Yes, we've had BJJ girls who likely have 
>those kinds of expectations, but we have also had Michlala and 
>Scharfman's girls who may have different expectations. I don't see 
>any difference in the confidence level based on which seminary 
>they come from. And the reality of Kollel today is that even most of 
>the BJJ girls will likely have to do something else besides be wife 
>and mother if they and their families expect to have food to eat.
>

Perhaps I didn't phrase it correctly (possibly I have made matters
clearer this time).  The question is not if you expect to do something
else to assist in putting food on the table.  The question is, can you
derive enough value from the other things that you are doing that even
without a shidduch, you are not a complete write off as a person.

The other thing I am perhaps not emphasising is that at the time you are
at Sem, you are not in this "you may have missed the boat" scenario  -
ie you have not yet failed.  But there is usually some level of
awareness of the dangers of failure and sometimes the sense of constant
judgment already operates (sometimes that comes later).

>And here I thought I would be helping them if I tried to play Eliezer 
>(which ironically I almost never get to do because most of the 
>singles we know are women).

Oh but you are.  In a world of potential Eliezers, a real one has all
the upsides and none of the downsides.  Well, actually, there are two
views on this - I always took the attitude that better that people
should try and be helpful, even if their suggestions turned out to be
dire - all I would waste is a few hours on an evening, while a number of
my friends used to get so frustrated when they would get their hopes up
for a date, and then it would turn out to be horrendous that they
preferred not to take such suggestions at all (ie they would check out
the shadchan).

My personal dislike of shadchanim (amateur of professional) is not that
they would set me up with somebody unsuitable once, but that they would
hassle me (usually on the boy's behalf) to keep trying once it was clear
to me it would not work.  For me, the very first question was whether I
could talk to the guy, or whether I felt that I had to simplify myself
and talk down to him (something I would do automatically if I felt he
wasn't following).  If that happened, I saw no point in further dates.
On the other hand, and this gets back to the theoretical penimus and the
reality of externals - I am (or was) quite pretty. For a lot of guys,
that was enough.

(Just to make the point that this applies to the MO side.  A friend of
mine was helping out a well known shadchan who caters for a spectrum,
with a bias towards the MO crowd, sort through the people on her list.
And the thing that really horrified my friend was how few of the guys
were prepared to go out with a girl who was overweight.  In one case the
shadchan set the girl up with somebody, and the only reason she did that
was because this was one of the few guys on her list who was prepared to
go out with somebody overweight, even though there was really nothing
else in common.  Shadchanim know this as well as anybody, and if you do
not have parents looking at more important things, how you "turn out"
may even increase in importance).

However my experience highlights the problem with checking people out.
If you are an average sort of person then it makes sense to check, you
are probably going to like and be able to marry the average sort of guy
who fits limited paper criteria, and you don't want to get involved with
somebody with skeletons in their closet.

However, if you are a more unusual sort of person then most dates will
turn out to be unsuitable for reasons that cannot be detected by
checking.  You therefore waste an inordinate amount of time checking
only to realise you could not marry the person within five minutes of
coming face to face.  Also, I think, when you are older and have more
dating experience, you are better placed to suss things out than when
you are a teenager.

Ultimately my husband and I met at one of these singles dinners - ie 80
singles in a room for a Friday night dinner.  Admittedly I was employing
my favorite strategy for dealing with such situations (ie to scare off
those who were only interested in looks - otherwise you waste a
tremendous amount of time going on pointless dates and getting hassled
direct when you won't go anymore), by having a conversation on why I
preferred the Aruch HaShulchan over the Mishna Brura.  And true to
experience, the sort of guy who did not run a mile turned out to have
well, lots of potential shall we say ;-)

But we are talking here about an older crowd, with a more developed
sense of self and a much better idea at least as to what they are *not*
looking for. And it is also fair to say that while this strategy worked
this time, I had lots of disappointing, dispiriting experiences with
such singles events (singles events probably rank as one of the most
horrible ways to spend an evening, the dread a Sem girl might feel on a
shabbas out pales in comparison with the dread of another one of these
events that you feel compelled, or pushed by others, to go on.  The
meatmarket nature of them is just truly horrible, and of course first
impressions are absolutely critical.  And even looking good may work
against you, because if you are interested in somebody who is not
interested in looks, but he sees a whole bunch of guys who are only
interested in looks focussing on a particular girl, then he may well
decide to go and talk to somebody else and never make it near you,
especially if the crowd is big enough.  One can try and ameliorate the
situation by eg not wearing make-up, but it doesn't always help). The
vast majority of my near misses (and I had a number) were from people
who knew me setting me up with somebody they felt was suitable.

So don't let me disuade you from an Eliezer role if such should become
available. 

>- -- Carl

Shavuah tov

Chana
-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

Micha Berger asked me how something that is not required could be the
focus of a women's avodas Hashem.  The question assumes that there is a
clearly defined focus for the avodas Hashem for all men or all women.
To the best of my understanding Judaism requires us to keep halacha but
does not prescribe a particular focus for the avodas Hashem of any
individual.
Sincerely,
Yosef Blau

In a message dated 11/6/99 2:35:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

> The rule about mitzvos asei shehazman gerama is unclear -- there are more
>  exceptions than instantiations.

As a matter of fact, Rambam rejects the rule altogether. He writes (Peirush 
haMishnayos Kiddushin 29) that this is a convenient system of taxonomy, but 
that it is nothing more than that. He backs this point by listing the many 
exceptions to the rule.

Mordechai Torczyner
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf
Congregation Ohave Shalom, Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave

> Dind' many of us rely upon Jastrow for Peshat in gemoro?.
> 

Not that I can ever remember, no.

> Rich Wolpoe

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

In a message dated 11/6/99 2:35:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

> I invited the list to explain kavodah bas melech p'nimah without assuming
>  a centrality of the home. 

Why isn't it an extension of "veHatzneia Leches Im Elokecha," of acting in a 
"demure" (I despise that word, but it's the closest I can find in English) 
manner, in general?

Of course, Michah thought one-third of the whole Torah - for men and women 
both - came down to this idea (Makkos 24), but perhaps it is stronger for 
women (whether married, single, childless or Em haBanim)?

Mordechai Torczyner
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf
Congregation Ohave Shalom, Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave

Shavua tov!
A general sincere thanks to all those on the list who have helped me in
various ways including clarification, information and generally providing
absorbing reading...  You may be delighted/relieved/indifferent/disappointed
to hear that for almost the next two weeks I'll be off on an Arctic
expedition (as EY to Manchester UK qualifies I think) leaving my capable
husband to field any stray comments cast in my general direction.

Sorry to be a pain in the neck, MBerger and all - in terms of multi subject
post, just short on time.

Torah uMada & Chassidus?  See 'Be'Or HaTorah'- fascinating publication-
science & with a lot of Chabadskers-  Prof. Herman Branover's people and
other similar individuals. (BTs? Most, probably, I'm concerned about the
next generation, esp. boys. I think the girls do bagrut in the Chabad
schools here) Chassidus & science- not incompatible (although I understand
that many chassidim would be uncomfortable with it simply from lack of
familiarity and distrust). Why would knowledge of G-d's creation be in the
klipos temeyos? What defines chochmos chitzonios?

Simcha & Hana'ah?
Real simcha is a state of mind.  Simcha derived from the hana'ah of food and
drink, even dancing, can be great at the time and may lead to some real
level of devekus on a temporary basis, but it doesn't necessarily lead to a
profound joyful outlook on life.

Personally, I deplore the legitimization of high alcohol consumption as
ostensible means to simcha.  This is a dangerous rationalisation that can
easily lead to alcoholism and general ill health. Yes, I'm going to be a
spoilsport here too!  My opinion means nothing, but Rabbi/Doc. A. Twersky
has a lot on his hands.
Rebbe Nachman speaks about wine in measure and wine out of measure. The
first is a means to kedusha.  The latter, however...
(btw Likutei Mehoran also speaks about the spiritual meaning of dancing.)

I think real simcha is achieved from the knowledge that one's life is truly
beratzon Hashem.

Chana's post on the single's scene was truly absorbing- and painful.  It
seems to me that many women need to strengthen our sense of real self worth-
our emuna in the ways of HKBH and in ourselves. Our real "penima" lies in
that.  (See Gila Manolson's 'Outside Inside'.  )

First, We need to have 100% confidence that HKBH will set us up with the
right guy when the time is right.  The investigations, loshon hara, meat
markets etc etc will then not worry us at all.

Second, We need to have a very developed sense of self- as Chana mentioned.
This requires the right kind of education and approach from both parents and
sem. It's a difficult balance to attain- we want to give a good first
impression while maintaining an inner sense that tells us that this is
really not so important, that we have so much to offer beyond that. If he
won't look deep enough to see that, he's missing out.

In most populations there is a slight surfeit of women-   which means that
about six million of all women in the U.S. will probably never marry-  even
if all men find partners. That's depressing.  That, together with peer
pressure of all kinds- do you wonder why the girls are so nervous?
If this list would indulge such a thread, I would like to ask the gentlemen
their thoughts on first impressions-  how long the typical frum guy takes to
assess the suitability of a woman and what factors interest him most- and,
yes,  it goes the other way too.

OK that's enough, I'll sidle out now. Shavua tov-  and good evening.    Mrs.
G. Atwood.





===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan J. Baker <jjbaker@panix.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: Rambam and Asceticism


> RYGB, the Arbiter of Truth wrote:
>

Thank you for the title. I was wondering why no one noticed till now...

> > Not good enough.
> > Can't rely on a Conservative Rabbi as a primary source.
>
> It wasn't a primpary source, it was a secondary source.  Shivchei
> haBesht is a primary source.
>

But, you did not give us the story, nor even the mareh makom, in the Shivhei
Ha'Besht, nor even a name of a sefer for your later expounding on the shitta
of the Mezritcher Maggid. So, we are left relying on REJ Schochet (a fine
person, with whom I have had e-mail correspondence, but, a Conservative
Rabbi nonetheless, to whom we cannot grant any ne'omonus, nor grant
bias-neutral status). I am sorry, but that is still not good enough. We are
still left without any reliable source for an alleged Chassidic pro-pleasure
school of thought.

> What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.  You relied on
> a Conservative rabbi's citation of Protestantism as a primary source
> for your slippery slope argument.
>

Correct. The Conservative Rabbi, R' Jack Riemer, was making a sociological
comment about developments within his movement. There is a vast difference
betwen citing a sociological he'oro from a person about his own area of
expertise than nidon didan.

> Furthermore, Schochet only quoted the Shivchei haBesht, which is
> all I brought from him.  Just because the Lubavitch Chassidus with
> which you're familiar doesn't hold that way, doesn't mean that the
> Besh"t didn't hold that way.  That has become painfully obvious aw
> we've been learning the Tzavaas haRivash at Shaleshudis the past
> year.
>

I have been learning Tzavo'as Ha'Rivash since my bar mitzva (1975). Perhaps
you noticed that the standard edition is publsihed by "Kehos" (Chabad) and
was edited by my Uncle Immanuel. I took out one of my copies Erev Shabbos to
see if I could find the pro-pleasure philosophy espoused therein. Admittedly
it was a cursory examination, but I found no allusion thereto.

> > Sorry.
>
> No you're not.  In fact, it's one of your favorite tactics: attack
> the source of a quote, then ignore the substance of the argument.
>
> Yes, I'm furious.
>

I can only apologize for angering you, but I stand by what I said.

As for our related thread on Avodah b'Gashmiyus and Chochmos Chitzoniyos, a
standard Chassidic approach is that of the Izhbitzer in the Mei Ha'Shiloach
on this week's parasha (Chelek Aleph, last Piece on Chayei Sarah):

"Ksiv (Tehillim 111:6) 'Ko'ach ma'asav hegeed l'amo loseis lahem nachalas
goyim', haynu ki Yisroel metzeedam mei'ein ha'tzorech lahem leida shum
chochmos ha'teva, ki al pi toras Hashem v'hisnahagus Hashem Yisborach heim
misnahagim meebli tzorech lahem klal l'hisnahagus ha'tiviyos, rak me
she'amar la'shemen v'yadlik yomar la'chometz v'yadlik..."

He goes on to explain how Hashem b'ahavaso reveals certain chochmos ha'teva
in Torah itself, ayain sham.

I believe most Chassidim are of this opinion. Which means that for R' Lamm
to base TUM on a Chassidic model he would have had to first prove that there
is legtimate source for rejecting the Chassidic a priori assumption that CC
are not susceptible to Avodah b'Gashmiyus.

I would like to share with you, if I have not done so already, an episode
that was revelatory to me, from about eleven years ago. The Kollel where I
was learning at the time put out, under my co-editorship, a
newsletter/journal of which I was quite proud - for its erudition and fine
style. We brought a copy to a local Chassidishe Rebbe. His reaction was: Far
vos tzu schreiben in English, und, oib shoyn yo in English, chotch darf dos
zein a tzubrochene English, tzu zein anderish ve der Goyim. I had never
heard before a statement justifying, philosophically, the Chassidc use of
Broken English. I thought it was through lack of education or knowledge.
This episode revealed to me a whole school of thought (with which I
disagree) that I did not even know existed.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:

> As for our related thread on Avodah b'Gashmiyus and
> Chochmos Chitzoniyos, a
> standard Chassidic approach is that of the Izhbitzer
> in the Mei Ha'Shiloach
> on this week's parasha (Chelek Aleph, last Piece on
> Chayei Sarah):
> 
> "Ksiv (Tehillim 111:6) 'Ko'ach ma'asav hegeed l'amo
> loseis lahem nachalas
> goyim', haynu ki Yisroel metzeedam mei'ein
> ha'tzorech lahem leida shum
> chochmos ha'teva, ki al pi toras Hashem v'hisnahagus
> Hashem Yisborach heim
> misnahagim meebli tzorech lahem klal l'hisnahagus
> ha'tiviyos, rak me
> she'amar la'shemen v'yadlik yomar la'chometz
> v'yadlik..."
> 
> He goes on to explain how Hashem b'ahavaso reveals
> certain chochmos ha'teva
> in Torah itself, ayain sham.
> 
> I believe most Chassidim are of this opinion. Which
> means that for R' Lamm
> to base TUM on a Chassidic model he would have had
> to first prove that there
> is legtimate source for rejecting the Chassidic a
> priori assumption that CC
> are not susceptible to Avodah b'Gashmiyus.

How do you know that most Chasidim agree with the
Izhbitzer? But even if true Dr. Lamm's point was not
whether Chasidim agree specificly with studying Mada.
As I remember he conceeded that they don't.  It was
the Chasidic hashkafa itself that he was reffering to,
i.e. the idea that the 613 Mitzvos alone are not the
only way to be Oved HaBoreh.  Chasidus believes that
one can serve G-d by any action (of Reshus) as long as
he does it l"shem Shomayim.  It was in this sense that
he liked the Chasidic model.  As I recall, Dr. Lamm
concluded that studying Mada, eventhough it may not be
included in the Taryag Mitzvos, never the less if done
L'Shem Shomyim has equal value to doing any of the 613
L'Shem shomayim. 

If my recollections are off, I welcome corrections

HM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

----- Original Message -----
From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: Was Rambam and Asceticism, Now Chassidim, Asceticism and
Chochmos Chitzoniyos


> How do you know that most Chasidim agree with the
> Izhbitzer? But even if true Dr. Lamm's point was not
> whether Chasidim agree specificly with studying Mada.
> As I remember he conceeded that they don't.  It was
> the Chasidic hashkafa itself that he was reffering to,
> i.e. the idea that the 613 Mitzvos alone are not the
> only way to be Oved HaBoreh.  Chasidus believes that
> one can serve G-d by any action (of Reshus) as long as
> he does it l"shem Shomayim.  It was in this sense that
> he liked the Chasidic model.  As I recall, Dr. Lamm
> concluded that studying Mada, eventhough it may not be
> included in the Taryag Mitzvos, never the less if done
> L'Shem Shomyim has equal value to doing any of the 613
> L'Shem shomayim.
>

You see, R' Lamm cannot determine, merely by his own pronouncement, that
this is a Davar ha'Reshus that one should attempt to elevate. The Chassidc
model is based on the assumption that there are certain cheftzas that
possess nitzotzos of kedusha that can be elevated by use le'shem shomayim.
The Chassidic model is not applied to certain processes nor to certain types
of cheftzas (davar assur. assur, in Chassidus, means that the nitzotzos are
too tied up - the translation of the Aramaic word assur - to be elevated in
our world. pig is an example). R' Lamm needs to prove, to use the Chassidic
model, that the model applies here. I do not believe he ever did.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

> From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
> Subject: Re: Bekius
> 
> My anecdotal evidence would argue otherwise. Once someone fills all 
> of his learning time, and even B"H stretches that learning time, to
stay 
> up-to-date with DY, he no longer has the time for other shiurim or
bi'iyun on the daf.

	I guess it depends how much time there is available.  It also proves
that if one anecdotal observation does not determine a fact,  neither do
two.

Gershon 

From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com	>
Subject: Re: Conspicuous Consumption, Luxury, Etc.

<<I couldn't disagree more.  The last thing we need is
more takonos. It's hard enough dealing with those we
already have.  

I agree that there is a problem.  The chase for status
and acceptance always gives rise to certain
individuals spending beyond their means.  And I
further believe that this rather negative phenomenon
needs to be addressed.  But Takonos are the wrong way
to go about it.>>

	Unfortunately,  the goal of educating all of Klal Yisrael not to have
kin'ah of someone else's wealth, and not to try to emulate those with
much more money than them,  is not going to happen any time soon.

	Those places,  whether it is chasidishe kehilos with broad ranging
takonos on how big to make a wedding or other simcha,  or individual
shuls with limits on how large a kiddush can be,  are successful BECAUSE
it is a uniform takono.  Nobody feels that they look like the poor
relative because this is how it is done.

	We have friends who are members of a chasidishe group which imposes
limits on simchas. They are in the process of making a bar mitzvah and
are thrilled by the limits.  They save money,  and save face at the same
time because they are following the rules.  Same applies on a smaller
scale when there is a kiddush to be made in the shul which has uniform
rules on how big the kiddush can be (fairly common in Flatbush).

	The story is told about the Gerrer Rebbe,  whose takonos were previously
alluded to on this list, being approached by a wealthy chasid who wanted
an exemption from the rules to make a lavish wedding for his only
daughter.  He told the Rebbe that he had plenty of money and only one
daughter to spend it on.  The Rebbe is supposed to have answered him "if
you have so much money,  go buy yourself a different Rebbe".

	Education to tznius and histapkus is good,  but will not achieve the
goals in the short term.

Gershon

- --- "Stein, Aryeh E." <aes@ll-f.com> wrote:
> 
> R' Shmuel suggested that Rabbonim, Roshei Yeshiva,
> etc. should refuse to be masader kiddushin if a wedding is going to be
too
> ostentatious.  

<<That's Funny. I remember very recently R. Shmuel being
mesader kidushin at a pretty lavish wedding here in
Chicago.>>

	Suggesting a course of action does not imply that he was planning to
undertake it unilaterally. 

Gershon

A relevant source to both aspects of this discussion is Tanya perakim 7
and 8. Perek 7: Permitted food, etc are from klipas nogah but klipas noga
is 'rovo k'kulo ra, rak m'at tov' and only the purest of intentions can
elevate it.

Similarly in perek 8 'chachmos ha'umos ovdei gilulim' defiles the
intellectual faculties unless utilized l'shem shomayim, which includes 
applying the knowledge itself in avodas Hashem as well as utilizing it to
increase parnassah to support one's avodah. The caveat here is that one
must know how to do that, and I suppose this (utilizing the knowledge
itself) is assumed to be beyond the reach of most people?

RYGB wrote:
> Chassidim (in the main) hold, as I stated in my metaphor, that Chochmos
> Chitzoniyos (CC) are from the Kelipos (and not Kelipas Nogah). For R'
> Lamm to use a Chassidic model he would first need to prove that CC are
> at least from Kelipas Nogah, and that the nitzotzos of kedusha are not
> too greatly sealed in the CC to be muttar (as opposed to assur) befor
> Bi'as Go'el Tzedek.

This was posted on tachlis this morning. I thought I would post it 
here in case anyone needs it.

-- Carl

"panethsa@aquanet.co.il" wrote:
> 
> I represent Darchai Chinuch, an religious elementary school and Orchot
> Chayim, a high school Yeshiva in Bnei Brak Israel.
> 
> These wonderful facilities are the answer to the prayers of parents who
> have  children in special education and want a Yeshiva education.
> 
> All teachers and Rabayim are qualified special education teachers. The
> children also receive para medical services in addition to the daily
> studies.
> 
> Please don't hesitate to contact me for further information.
> 
> Debbie Paneth
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

*********************


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