Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 107

Thursday, November 4 1999

• Re: Toward Tradition
• RE: Denigration of Bekiyus?!
• Re: Shabbos Guests
• time for Torah, avoda generally
• Re: Avodah V4 #105
• RE: Shal"a, Asceticism and Zecher L'churban
• Re: Denigration of Bekiyus?!
• R. Elya Svei's Sonei Yisrael Comment
• Re: Dichotomous lifestyle
• Re: What is a Godo?
• [none]
• Rabbenu Yonah and the Rambam
• What is a Godol? Humor Alert
• Re: Lamm Slam
• Educational diversification in a Torah schools and the 5% solution
• Re: Educational diversification in a Torah schools and the 5% solution
• Re: Hayom yom, non-Jewish court
• Re: Brich shmey, limudei chol
• Re: Rambam and Asceticism
• Re: Rambam and Asceticism
• Hayom yom, non-Jewish court

Harry Weiss wrote:

<<<
Much of what Rabbi Lapin considers relgious Judaism seems to be very 
opposed to how I was brought up.  I recently a read a review of his book 
(It was on the American Spectator web site and written by the son of 
friends).  He seems to be pusing for making America and Xtian country and 
how Xtianity has been good for the Jews.   In the last Republican 
Convention he gave a nominating speech for Pat Buchanan.
>>>

While not necessarily libelous, the above statement alleging that Rabbi 
Lapin gave a nominating speech for Pat Buchanan at the last Republican
Convention is certainly highly derogatory.  Since I haven't seen anyone post 
any further information on this I thought that I should register my own 
impression that the statement is false. My memory is that Mr. Buchanan 
was blessed with the support of another Orthodox rabbi (and of a 
decidedly more charedi orientation than Rabbi Lapin's), whose name I have 
somehow managed to delete from my memory, but was not Lapin.  I believe 
that it was that other rabbi who gave the speech for Buchanan.  I am not a 
particular fan of Rabbi Lapin's s, but let's be careful about the facts.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov
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From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
> 
> Another email from RJIR, same issue:
> : I seem to recall Sherlock Holmes saying that he did not 
> need to know the 
> : distance from the earth to the sun, only where to look it 
> up if he needed it.
> 
> Contrasting with RYGB's <ygb@aishdas.org> statement from 
> v3n98 which reads:
> : It is not possible to undertand Bavli without the rest of Bavli.
> 
> The flaw with the Sherlock Holmes citation is that he assumes 
> he's know when
> he'll need the information. The truth is that if you aren't 
> sufficiently
> educated you don't know what questions to ask. Without the 
> bekius, you can't
> know when your inyan intersects another. Tosafos-like 
> analysis would be
> impossible. Even with a CD ROM -- what are you going to do, 
> search for every
> synonym of every significant word in the inyan you're learning?

As a tax attorney (starting my seventh year) I find that certainly in tax
law there is a middle position.  A beginning tax attorney has little feel
for the "yam" of the Internal Revenue Code.  Even though there are
tremendous indexes, computer search abilities, treatises, etc., a beginning
tax attorney cannot handle an issue on his own.  As the attorney becomes
more experienced, even if he does not remember the nitty-gritty details of a
particular issue, (e.g. what percentage of company's stock is necessary to
be transferred in a tax-free stock-for-stock deal), so long as remembers the
concept (of "continuity of interest") he will remember to check the IRC
(§368) for the exact details.  I know senior tax partners who don't remember
exact details but still have a fabulous feel for what types of issues are
implicated by a specific fact pattern and when you can be "m'dameh milta
l'milta."

Back to Torah: At a point where no CD Roms existed, exact recall was very
important.  Today, general background (especially concepts in Shas) is
important but exact recall is less important.  As long as you remember the
basic concept of a gemara and some phrase that helps you find it by means of
a CD Rom, you can easily look the shaklah v'tarya and reacquaint yourself
with the Gemara.  This means that you can spent less time memorizing and
more time synthesizing (or whatever else you want to do).

Kol tuv,
Moshe

Subject: Shabbos Guests

A long long time ago when I was a single sem girl, our sem used to set us up
with families so we wouldn't have to call ourselves. Many of these would ask
us to feel free to invite ourselves afterwards. If I already felt
comfortable with them that was often enough to overcome my innate British
reserve('what's she talking about?' I hear you ask)

Guidelines? Simply don't ask the girls about themselves. Ask them about
their sems,  their teachers, their trips around Israel. Talk about
yourselves to ease the tension and prompt them to volunteer information if
they wish. Some girls like to help out, others would be horrified to be
asked- your collective intuition help out there.  Your wife could compliment
them on some aspect of their appearance-  that never fails to endear self
conscious teenage girls who are probably wondering if they are presentable.

Start with a joke. Finish with a joke and enjoy yourselves in the middle.
They'll be begging to come back.

btw did you happen to notice the Torah and Technology column in Horizons?

Mrs. G. A.

From: Daniel Israel <daniel@jupiter.ame.arizona.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: Limudei Chol


>
> Mrs. Gila Atwood <gatwood@netvision.net.il> writes:
> > There is the concept of the menora representing full time learners on
the
> > one side and ba'alei batim supporting them on the other side-  note all
> > lights on the same level.
>
> And Yeshivas fundraising letter are fond of telling you about
> Yissachar/Zevulon relationships.  But the unfortunate truth is that much
> of the Yeshiva world sees the menorah as a staircase instead.  Also, one
> large problem with this type of analogy is that it reinforces the
> stereotype of men having to choose to be either ba'alei batim (which
> begins to connote someone who pays for learning but isn't capable of
> doing much of it) or kollelite.  What about someone who arranges his
> work to leave a substantial part of the day to learn in Yeshiva, or
> someone who learns very seriously many hours after work?  Yes, there are
> very few men like that.  But maybe that is the problem.  More men should
> be encouraged to go that route.  But the current system just convinces
> us that no such route exists.
>
I agree wholeheartedly about the annoying elitist attitude- though this
stems from the awareness that Talmud Torah is a great mitzva and avoda.

The Ba'al shem tov addressed this very issue. Yes, Talmud Torah is a
gevaldige avoda, but it's not the only avoda. Being a doctor, lawyer or
janitor for that matter can be a gevaldige avoda if we do it leshem
shamayim. . (There is actually a shita that a person who is koveya itim is a
masmid in a sense, since he is consistent on a daily basis. )

How much time a man can devote to Torah is often related to his financial
situation and that to a great degree depends on his level of education as
well as his mazal.  So OK my scheme of the ideal Torah world (a few score
posts ago) was simplistic.  I wouldn't really say that everyone not learning
full time would only be learning an hour or daf yomi only (itself a pretty
impressive accomplishment a daily basis esp first time around) . Of course
the time input is subject to great variation in time and level of
seriousness and depth. Mrs. G.A.

Raffy D. wrote:

<<<
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE SECOND CIRCUIT 

Why did this all happen in federal court and not in a Beis-Din?

How does "V'Eileh HaMishpatim asher Tasim Lifneihem" v'lo lifnei Aku"M
fit in?
>>>

My not necessarily unbiased impression of the case was that the
plaintiff was claiming that the personal property (or at least his valuable 
books and manuscripts) of the previous Rebbe (i.e. R. Joseph Isaac) 
was actually the communal property of the entire Lubavitch movement 
and therefore that the defendant's claim of inheritance was invalid.  The 
trial court and the appelate court apparently accepted the theory that 
the previous Rebbe had no personal property rights over the disputed
books and manuscripts and therefore could not have bequeathed them
to his daughter or other members of her family (the defendants).  Instead, 
the books were the property of the Lubavitch movement which meant 
effectively under the absolute control of the successor of the previous 
Rebbe.  While two courts did buy into this legal theory, it is less clear to 
me whether the theory would have fared as well in a tribunal 
adjudicating the dispute according to well accepted halakhic precedents.  
But I invite those better versed than I in the relevant halakhic material to 
weigh in with their more authoritative opinions.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov
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From: david.nadoff@bfkpn.com
> When read in cunjunction with other relevant passages
> passages in Shal"a, however, especially portions of the
> Ner Mitzvah section of M'seches Ta'anis, it is fairly clear
> that something closer to #1 is correct, except that its based on
> Shal"a's understanding of the statements and requirements in
> sha"s regarding remembering the churban, rather than on some
> extraneous "ascetic perspective."

I have no doubt that it is based on the Shal"a's understanding of the
churban.  But can you imagine a chassidic rebbe saying: "I believe that the
pleasure that Hashem gives us is extremely important but because of the
churban we can no longer engage in this aspect of Yahadut."  If pleasure
(the elevation of the material to the spiritual) is a cornerstone of a
Yahudut, this importance would not be changed as a result of the churban.
The churban would merely call out to us to curb pleasures at some times in
order to remember the churban.

Someone, like the Rambam, who does not believe in the intrinsic importance
of pleasure would have no problem in having the rememberance of the churban
permeate their experience of pleasure.
(BTW, I would prefer using the nomenclature of "instrinsic importance of
pleasure" rather than ascetic/nonascetic.)

Kol tuv,
Moshe

In a message dated 11/4/99 11:51:33 AM EST, MFeldman@CM-P.COM writes:

> Back to Torah: At a point where no CD Roms existed, exact recall was very
>  important.  Today, general background (especially concepts in Shas) is
>  important but exact recall is less important.  As long as you remember the
>  basic concept of a gemara and some phrase that helps you find it by means 
of
>  a CD Rom, you can easily look the shaklah v'tarya and reacquaint yourself
>  with the Gemara.  This means that you can spent less time memorizing and
>  more time synthesizing (or whatever else you want to do).
>  
There are a few aspects, as for the Mitzvah of Vshinantom the requirement is 
that one knows (at least the Halacha) without any need to be Mayein, as for 
Limud Hatorah, reacquainting not only ties up valubale time (as any serious 
learner knows that time is an Aveidoh Sheloi Nitnoh Lhosheiv) if one doesn't 
remember all the details he can be missing out on nuances that he ahs 
forgotten and won't bother looking for IOW Bloshon Hashas Ashirim Bmokom 
Acheir.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

>I'm not so sure about all this "out of context"
>apologetics for R. Svei.  Because if R. Svei really
>was misinformed about the intent of the statement then
>HE would have made some sort of apology by now, and
>that would have made big news, and would have been a
>major positive development.  I believe instead that R.
>Svei still stands by what he said, and probabaly still
>feels that that Dr. Lamm is a Soneh HaShem.
>
>HM

Having attended the Agudath Israel convention session in which R. Elya made
his remark two years ago, I believe that  there is a subtle but real
distortion in how it was played in the media.  Here is an outline of his
remarks:

1) Rabbi Lamm denigrated true Lomdei Torah through his "caveman" statement.
2)  R. Elya quoted a source (I believe it was the Shaarei Teshuva) that
stated that one who is go'er Talmidei Chachomim is a Sonei  Yisrael.

He therefore never explicitly called Rabbi Lamm a Sonei Yisrael.

Again, I believe that although this difference is subtle it is also  very
real.  As an analogy, if a rebbe were to see a student involved in an
activity that was inappropriate, he might cite a musar sefer to that student
to the effect  that someone who involves himself in such an activity is
considered a menuval. There is a very big difference between citing the
sefer, and directly calling the student a menuval. 

I believe that R. Elya did not clarify the statement after the media
distortion because a clarification  would have served to dilute the
seriousness of his differences with Rabbi Lamm. Rabbi Lamm is anathema to R.
Elya for many reasons - cooperation with Conservative/ Reform as well as
Torah U'Madda being other very serious points of contention.  A
clarification/ retraction in the simplified media rendering would have
suggested a narrowing of differences: an implication that R. Elya definitely
wants to avoid. There would be no way that the media could play such a
nuanced clarification accurately.

Arnie Lustiger

Mrs. GA wrote:
<<I agree that much can be gained from some secular literature and
entertainment- values that are consonant with Torah hashkafah.  (I use
Jane
Austen & similar with my teenage daughter). This is why I stated
specifically an entertainment FAR AWAY from Torah hashkafah.>>

This is an excerpt (with few modifications) from an off-list
discussion:

I specifically chose authors whose philosophy IS "far away" from Torah
Hashkafa;" the point being that even with these sources one can enhance
one's avodas hashem.  If the sources of distraction have no essential
value (whether agreeing with "Torah Hashkafa" or not), one should
probably not be reading them.  Of course, there is the ill-defined,
easy-to-invoke reason that the person simply needs to relax and rest
their mind so as to be better able to pursue loftier goals.  But again,
if one is reading a trashy novel for that reason then there should also
be no dissonance with one's kris shma; both ultimately reflect the
person's desire to be an Oved HaShem.  

I'm not sure I can understand your heichi timtzi.  M'ma Nafshach:
either the activity is contributing to your avodas hashem (directly or
indirectly), and there is no dichotomy, or it is not (and may be
possibly inappropriate in absolute terms too), and you should refrain
from it.  The important variable is not so much what you are
doing/reading/watching etc., as it is WHY you are doing it.

Respectfully, 

David Eisenman

As we have come back to revisit this topic, I would like to see some
definitions of what is a Godol.
Thanks and have an awesome day.
steve

Regarding the Netziv and secular studies in Volozhin, see my extensive
article in the second issue of The Torah u-Madda Journal.
JJ Schacter

Tengential Question:

Has anyone done a definitive study comparing the Rambam's Hilchos Teshuva with 
Rabbeinu Yonah's Shaarei Teshuva?  While the 2 overlap, I'll bet there's a lot 
of potential Torah contrasting their respective views on the subject.

Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________



One other point I forgot in my posting.  There are rishonim who state that 
Shaare Teshuva is part of a series of books on the mitzvoth, and that there 
were other "Gates" as well.  In other words, it was not written for a unique 
reason.

Definition of a Gadol:

A well-known or widely respected Talmid Chochom whose opinions match mine 
precisely! <grin>

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


As we have come back to revisit this topic, I would like to see some 
definitions of what is a Godol.
Thanks and have an awesome day.
steve

W/O ANY apologetics...

Unless one heard R. Svei's {alleged} remark first hand, may I humbly suggest 
that this be attributed to simple media distortion. Let us recallr one common 
denominator of the Yoatzot thread was that:
"a lot of what was reported was distorted."

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________



I'm not so sure about all this "out of context" 
apologetics for R. Svei.  Because if R. Svei really was 
misinformed about the intent of the statement then HE 
would have made some sort of apology by now, and that 
would have made big news, and would have been a major 
positive development.  I believe instead that R. Svei 
still stands by what he said, and probabaly still feels 
that that Dr. Lamm is a Soneh HaShem.

HM

There has been a dicussion off the list between
Gershon Dubin and me about the problem of the cost of
education and how to fund it.  We both thought it
might be a good idea to send it back to the list so,
here is our last correspondence:

--- Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 03:57:34 -0800 (PST) harry
> maryles
> <hmaryles@yahoo.com> writes: (In response to the
limited ability of even the wealthy to pony up more
money to education)
> 
> > > 1. who says (ever hear of fundraising?)
> 	The problem here (and you probably know more about
> this than I do) is
> that again,  in this day and age,  your universe of
> givers is limited. 
> You have few people who can both afford to give and
> are willing to do so,
>  and are not already either paying their own
> tuitions through the nose, 
> giving already,  or both.  Ein habor mismalei
> meichulyoso.  This the
> attraction,  from what I hear,  of the 5% solution. 
> If you know
> something about this,  I (and the list) would like
> to hear.

Fundraising does not always rely on Gvirim. A well run
concert, for example can do it through ticket sales.
You're right about the universe of givers being
limited. In this regard it is not only limited but
decreasing for a myriad of reasons.  And Tuitions will
continue to go up.  There will be a a crisis, if there
isn't already one, that will have to be addressed. 
But this ios miore related to the general question
about the Direction of Orthodox Judaism vis a vis how
to best direct our youth to serve G-d. Do we continue
to push ALL students into learning full time as the
ultimate way of expressing Avodas Hashem or do we
differentiate between students into finding their
niches and contributing in the best way that each
individual can in their own unique way. If we pursue
the latter then we can have a society wich will be
LESS dependant on the largess of the Gvir and more
able to pay a largwer percentage of their tuition. 
The better jobs that will result by having such an
approach to education will have a twofold effect: 

1. Each individual will be able to serve G-d in a way
that is best suited to his talents (e.g. MD's or
Accountants) w/o the stigma of "not having made it in
learning" and 

2. More money (available for tuition) will be
generated by the higher paying jobs that will become
available to those who will now be encouraged to
follow specific career paths suited to their talents.

(I have mentioned the above to the list in the past)


As for the 5% solution, this is an effort by an
nindividual here in Chicago who is accutely aware of
the problem and has spent significant amounts of money
and time promoting the idea. It is supported by
Chicago's Jewish Federation, which has been very
sympathtic and generous to the needs of our Jewish
educational institutions.  Basicly, it is an endowment
superfund to be equally accessed by all educational
institutions that has been established and will be
funded by contributoions.  The primary source will be
bequethments (is that a word?)  There is a big push by
this individual (with the approval of all RH's
community leaders, Rabbonim,  principals, and baale
battim involved in education, and Federation) at his
own expense for all members of the Jewish community
(Ortho, Conserv, and Reform) to pledge 5% of the net
worth of their estate and formalize it in a will.

HM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:47:21 -0800 (PST) harry maryles
<hmaryles@yahoo.com> writes:

> Fundraising does not always rely on Gvirim. A well run
> concert, for example can do it through ticket sales.
	Maybe New York is different  (alright,  New York  *is*  different)  than
most other,  even large communities.  We have concerts here,  more
Chinese auctions than you could believe,  and,  again,  the same people
being asked to give.  If you get money for a yeshiva  which someone would
otherwise spend on a for-profit concert,  mah tov umah noim.   Most
people,  I think,  have neither the money nor the time for either type of
concert.

	You are also coming up against forces pulling on everyone's time. 
Again,  maybe NY is different,  and I have been so informed by "out of
town"  (just let it go <g>!!)  friends that they do not have anywhere
near the number of smachos B"H that we have here. Add those to the
responsibilities that we all  (NY and O.O.T's)   have to (in no
particular order) work,  family,  minyanim, sedarim, etc.  and not much
if anything is left.

	Has anyone heard of this 5% solution being proposed outside of Chicago?

Gershon

My best recollection is that Chabad originally went to the beis din, which
allowed them to go to federal court to get a temporary injunction to stop
Barry Gourary from selling the books (such an order from a beis din would 
have been ineffective). I believe the judge himself said that the case
belonged in a rabbinical court, Chabad agreed and wanted to go back to
beis din but Gourary refused. In such situations you are allowed to
proceed in non-Jewish court. Maybe someone else has more details about
these halachos.

BTW, Chaim Dalfin's interview with the lawyer for Chabad is in his book
"Interviews with the Rebbe". It is an interesting story.

> From: raffyd@juno.com
> 
> Why did this all happen in federal court and not in a Beis-Din?
> 
> How does "V'Eileh HaMishpatim asher Tasim Lifneihem" v'lo lifnei Aku"M
> fit in?

In Avodah 4#94 (I'm still behind in digest reading -- trying to catch up!
-- but don't believe [based on a keyword search of my mail box] the
question was actually answered), REMTeitz wrote:
> Mention was also made about some minhagim which do not say the Aramaic
parts of Slichos. Can the writer be more specific? <
I wasn't the writer, but I can affirm that the saider S'lichos at JEC of
Elizabeth (for those who don't know, Rabbi Teitz is the mora d'asra
Elizabeth) was one of the, if not *the*, most jarring differences with the
nusach of "Breuer's" (a.k.a. minhog Frankfurt) that I had to get used to.
To the point, the Aramaic portions in this saider are nowhere to be found
in the saider used in "Breuer's" (and, as per the implications of the
previous sentence, that isn't the only difference).

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

----- Original Message -----
From: Feldman, Mark <MFeldman@CM-P.COM>

> Contrast this with Chasidism which believes that one may serve Hashem by
> having pleasure.  So long as one makes the effort to associate pleasure
with
> the ultimate Giver of pleasure, pleasure has intrinsic meaning.  While the
> Rambam sees sex as merely serving the goals of procreation and relieving a
> bodily necessity, one could view sex as having intrinsic importance--to
> appreciate Hashem's great gift, especially as it is entwined the desire to
> become of one flesh with one's wife.  Sexually pleasuring one another is a
> great ma'aseh chesed as well.  (Remember Rav Dessler in Kuntrus Hachesed
who
> says that *giving* pleasure causes one to love another.)
>

Which Chasidim might those be?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

In a message dated 11/4/99 2:33:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

> Which Chasidim might those be?

Chasidei Umois Ho'olom :-)

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

I received a mailing that defended Chabad something like this (I'm a bit fuzzy 
on the details):

The first "secular" was under the jurisdiction of a a surrogate (probate) court;
which in turn is not a "true" formal court  Rather is was tobe constured as a 
board of arbitration.  Chabad then cited a heter or teshuvo to use the surrogate
court.

I don't recall how it escalated to the Federal Court of Appeals.

Rich Wolpoe




______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Hayom yom, non-Jewish court 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    11/4/1999 2:13 PM


My best recollection is that Chabad originally went to the beis din, which 
allowed them to go to federal court to get a temporary injunction to stop 
Barry Gourary from selling the books (such an order from a beis din would 
have been ineffective). I believe the judge himself said that the case 
belonged in a rabbinical court, Chabad agreed and wanted to go back to 
beis din but Gourary refused. In such situations you are allowed to 
proceed in non-Jewish court. Maybe someone else has more details about 
these halachos.

BTW, Chaim Dalfin's interview with the lawyer for Chabad is in his book 
"Interviews with the Rebbe". It is an interesting story.

> From: raffyd@juno.com
> 
> Why did this all happen in federal court and not in a Beis-Din? 
> 
> How does "V'Eileh HaMishpatim asher Tasim Lifneihem" v'lo lifnei Aku"M 
> fit in?

*********************


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