Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 105

Wednesday, November 3 1999

• Re: Avodah V4 #103
• Re: gedolei Torah or Torah based society
• Re: gedolei Torah or Torah based society
• Re: Denigration of Bekiyus?!
• Re: gedolei Torah or Torah based society
• re: Feinstein/Soloveitchik family tree
• Re: Avodah V4 #102
• Re:Hayom yom
• Re: Avodah V4 #103
• Re: Avodah V4 #103
• Re: Catch Up Learning - Correction and Apology
• Public Schools
• Re: Re; Friendly fundamentalists
• BORUCH SHEM & YESHEI SHMEY RABBO
• Re: Denigration of Bekiyus?!
• Re: Limudei Chol
• Gedula by marriage
• Ascetism
• Rambam and Asceticism
• Who's that?
• The Rav's audience

Josh H already answered the question I asked you.

thanks anyway.
Moshe

--- "Sacks, Avram" <Avram_Sacks@cch.com> wrote:
> The reported decision  in the Lubavitch sefarim case is
> 
> Agudas Chasidei Chabad of United States, Plaintiff-Appellee, v.
> Barry
> Gourary, Defendant-Appellant, Hanna Gourary,
> Intervenor-Defendant-Appellant 
> 
> and is reported    at 833 F.2d 431, *; 1987 U.S. App. LEXIS 15206,
> **
> 
> No. 87-7224 
> 
> UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE SECOND CIRCUIT 
> 
> June 25, 1987, Argued   
> November 17, 1987, Decided 
> 
> //Avi
> 


=====

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In a message dated 11/3/99 7:26:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< He compared the pure study-for-
 myself-only kollel to RSBY's cave. FWIW, after seeing the speech, it was
 clear to me that he meant it as a positive alternative, but a different
 derech than the one he wanted for RIETS. The choice of word was certainly
 ill advised, as we know how it was taken in other quarters. >>

I always assumed that those who attacked R Lamm on this had not read or heard 
the speech - but somewhere in the chain it seems that someone knowingly took 
it out of context.  I wonder if the technical laws of lashon hara apply to a 
correct quote taken out of context.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

--- Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 11/3/99 7:26:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> micha@aishdas.org writes:
> 
> << He compared the pure study-for-
>  myself-only kollel to RSBY's cave. FWIW, after seeing the speech,
> it was
>  clear to me that he meant it as a positive alternative, but a
> different
>  derech than the one he wanted for RIETS. The choice of word was
> certainly
>  ill advised, as we know how it was taken in other quarters. >>
> 
> I always assumed that those who attacked R Lamm on this had not
> read or heard 
> the speech - but somewhere in the chain it seems that someone
> knowingly took 
> it out of context.  I wonder if the technical laws of lashon hara
> apply to a 
> correct quote taken out of context.

I think that this would be motzi shem ra.  I.e., reporting that R.
Lamm said "caveman" by itself is much more negative than reporting
that he said "this is the position of those who live in R Shimon Bar
Yochai's cave."

Kol tuv,
Moshe

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In v4n97, Gil Student <gil.student@citicorp.com> writes:
:    I think that you are now referring to those who are not iluyim.  Avira 
:    de'ara machkim - I'm not disagreeing with that.  The lack of 
:    distractions from learning such as secular studies, TVs, and movies 
:    also have a lot to do with their success in learning.

There's also a far simpler issue -- American kids know less Hebrew. Despite
all the differences between modern and biblical Hebrew, the amount of time
an Israeli kid spends learning simple peirush hamilim can't compare to the
amount of time my kids require. Anyone watching the Chidon Tanach can see the
difference between someone who speaks almost the language, and we who spend
much of our time learning the words and grammar of the text first.

Same issue, Joel Rich <Joelirich@aol.com> writes:
: This too is discussed by Poskim, while there are some who hold that even 
: today we should follow the Mishne in Avos Ben Chomeish etc. there are those 
: that hold that today that everything is in print is different (see S"A Horav 
: first Perek of Hil. Talmud Torah).

I find it interesting how well entrenched and idealized a HETER (really more
of a "dan likaf zichus" for common practice) in Tosafos became.

Another email from RJIR, same issue:
: I seem to recall Sherlock Holmes saying that he did not need to know the 
: distance from the earth to the sun, only where to look it up if he needed it.

Contrasting with RYGB's <ygb@aishdas.org> statement from v3n98 which reads:
: It is not possible to undertand Bavli without the rest of Bavli.

The flaw with the Sherlock Holmes citation is that he assumes he's know when
he'll need the information. The truth is that if you aren't sufficiently
educated you don't know what questions to ask. Without the bekius, you can't
know when your inyan intersects another. Tosafos-like analysis would be
impossible. Even with a CD ROM -- what are you going to do, search for every
synonym of every significant word in the inyan you're learning?

Later in that issue RRW <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com> writes:
: I would re-iterate that if you wanted to get a real broad-based bekios in 
: addition to shas Mishnayos, how about Rambam's Yad? Tur/BY?  how about Mei'ri?
: Perhaps Rif?
....
: According to this model, Gemoro and Tosfos, etc. should be learned
: exlusively (or at least primarily be'iyyun). And after moeli kreiso bebikus,
: you can start learning Mikro Misho etc. b'iyyun, too. 

The Rambam in hilchos Talmud Torah (1:11) pretty clearly defines "talmud" to be
bi'iyun, "mishnah" to be bekius. I'd argue that the Yad was named "Mishneh
Torah" because he intended it to be used exactly as RRW suggests. This also
implies that learning Talmud Bavli for bekius would be an oxymoron.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  3-Nov-99: Revi'i, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 63a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 2

Could we pleae stop this thread before it goes further?

For that matter, how about stopping the "are there gedolim in Chabad
thread"? (Yes, there are! Some are my relatives.)

There are some intersesting threads going on that actually do have some
shayachus to our common Avodas Hashem. These do not and can do much harm.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <Joelirich@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: gedolei Torah or Torah based society


> In a message dated 11/3/99 7:26:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> micha@aishdas.org writes:
>
> << He compared the pure study-for-
>  myself-only kollel to RSBY's cave. FWIW, after seeing the speech, it was
>  clear to me that he meant it as a positive alternative, but a different
>  derech than the one he wanted for RIETS. The choice of word was certainly
>  ill advised, as we know how it was taken in other quarters. >>
>
> I always assumed that those who attacked R Lamm on this had not read or
heard
> the speech - but somewhere in the chain it seems that someone knowingly
took
> it out of context.  I wonder if the technical laws of lashon hara apply to
a
> correct quote taken out of context.
>
> Kol Tuv,
> Joel Rich
>

The following info is taken from pages 5-6 of "Bastion of Faith", a
collection of divrei Torah from Rav Moshe Feinstein on the weekly parsha
and other topics, compiled and edited by Rabbi Avraham Fishelis in 1973:

This part of the family tree begins with Rav Yitzchak Yechiel, the Rav of
Karelitz. As we will see, he is Rav Moshe Feinstein's grandfather, and he
is Rav Joseph Soloveitchik's great-grandfather.

One of Rav Yitzchak Yechiel's daughters married Rav Dovid Feinstein, the
Rav of Usda and Starabin. Another daughter married Rav Eliyohu Feinstein,
Rav of Pruzhna. These brothers-in-law had the same last name, but were
otherwise related only through their wives.

Rav Dovid Feinstein's son is Rav Moshe Feinstein. One of Rav Eliyahu
Feinstein's daughters (i.e., one of Rav Moshe's first-cousins) married
Rav Moshe Soloveitchik; their son is Rav Joseph B. Soloveitchik. (To my
thinking, that makes Rav Moshe and The Rav "first cousins once removed",
but others define these terms differently.)

Akiva Miller

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Yes, there were close connections between the Feinstein family and RYBS. 
However, the role of other  Roshei Yeshiva(hamavein yavin) who prevented RYBS 
from speaking at Rav Aharon Kotler's leviah and who deny that RYBS had any 
kesher with Rav Shneur Kotler is scandalous. I was told by Rav Aaaon Kotler, 
rav Shneuer's son that the family consulted RYBS on all aspects of the 
medical issues involvong Rav Shneuer's zl illness. 
                                             Zeliglaw@aol.com(Steven Brizel)

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE SECOND CIRCUIT 

Why did this all happen in federal court and not in a Beis-Din?

How does "V'Eileh HaMishpatim asher Tasim Lifneihem" v'lo lifnei Aku"M
fit in?

Raffy
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Without resorting to apologetics, I think the article stated that both 
brothers had been out of touch. perhaps, both were settling old scores. I 
suppose we'll have to wait for the book tour. Zeliglaw@aol.com (Steven Brizel)

Rabbi Rakkafet sets forth all of the family tree in his excellent book on 
RYBS.
                                           Zeliglaw@aol.com(Steven Brizel)

     >>>>>>Are you willing to say that to R. Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg's 
     face?>>>>>>
     
     >>>>I don't think he went to college, but that's beside the point. 
     Although he was born in America, his training was in Europe (R. 
     Scheinberg learned in Mir - the town - not just the Yeshiva).>>>>
     
     >>If I remember correctly from "All For The Boss," he learned in 
     Yeshiva University and graduated from college.>>
     
     I apologize for my inaccuracy.  RCPS did not go to college.  He 
     learned in RJJ, New Haven, RIETS, and the Mir in that order (All For 
     The Boss pp. 113-115).  At that time, RIETS did not have a college.  
     However, my point still stands that he grew up in America and is a 
     gadol betorah as did most if not all of the Moetzes Gedolei Torah of 
     Agudath Israel of America.  I think we all agree that iluyim, 
     exceptional students, can succeed in learning while growing up in 
     America.

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 08:16:09 -0800 (PST)
> From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Public schools/Religion
> 
> - --- Daniel Israel <daniel@pluto.ame.arizona.edu>
> wrote:
> > 
> > Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:
> > > > Most Frum Jews couldn't conceive of what its
> > like
> > > > knowing the words to Christmas Carols better
> > than Shma. Welcome to
> > > > the ugly world.
> > >
> > > Is there anyone raised in the US who doesn't know
> > the
> > > words to Jingle Bells, no matter how right wing a
> > > Yeshiva he went to? 
> > > What does that prove?  I couldn't care less if
> > public
> > > schools have Christmas trees anymore than I care
> > if
> > > there is a national Christmas tree on the White
> > house
> > > lawn.
> > 
> > Do your children go to  public schools, and if not
> > would that change
> > your opinion?  What about the cast majority of
> > non-religous Jews who do
> > go to public school?  Do we have an obligation to
> > protect them?
> 
> I went to public school untill 4th grade.  I remember
> hating Christmes time then (as I still do).  Had I
> continued in PS  without ever having attended a
> Religious Day school I would have become a very fine
> Goy, probably with a Chanuka bush in my house.
> 
> Of course I care about the vast majority of
> non-religous Jews who go to public school. The answer
> for them is Kiruv of the type NCSY provides.  Short of


I want to remind people on the list that many religous people also send 
their children to public school.  When you live out here in Yenem's velt, 
without a Yeshiva High school, only a few of us were willing to send our 
chidlren out of town.  Most of the Shomer shabbos families send their 
children to public high schools.

Also, in elemntary we sent our younger one to public school for a year to 
get more of the speech help he needed that the community (non O) Jewish 
school could provide.

It is not J 4 J that is pushing for more Xtian religion in pbulic 
schools, but the right wing fundementalists.

--- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> While we're on the subject of who wants to convert
> us, Billy Graham is pretty
> active at it as well. A number of the key people at
> the top of AmWay's
> pyramid are followers of Graham. (This connection is
> why AmWay meetings,
> at least all but the bottom-most level must, by the
> bylaws of the firm,
> include a prayer.) He convinced them to tithe their
> AmWay-related profits to
> j4j. My information is somewhat old, though. I have
> a record of Rev "Moish"
> Rosen (the founder of j4j) thanking the leading
> figures in AmWay for keeping
> his mission afloat.
> 
> Assuming this is going on a decade later, is it
> mutar to go into business
> with AmWay? After all, it's not the business but
> individuals that are giving
> the money. Either way, I find the idea repugnant.

I find it repugnant, too. (I'm not so crazy about the
pyrimid scheme of Amway either.)
I know The Rev BG is an Evangelist and I also, used to
think that Evangelist by definition means to actively
convert the non believers, especially Jews.  But I'm
not so sure that's correct anymore.  The more I study
about them the less I think that is so.  I'm just not
totally sure.  My impression of BG is that he is out
to convert the non believers and create many born
again Christians (as in Baale Teshuva to
Christianity).

I'm curious where you get your information and how
accurate it is.

HM

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From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>

Sammy Ominsky <sambo@charm.net>wrote:
Subject: Re: Baruch Sheim and Yehei Sh'mei


>Micha Berger wrote:
> I thought the identification was made on the basis of the two versions of
> the aggadita. In the medrash, when the sons say "Shema Yisrael", Yaakov
> replies "Baruch sheim...". However in shas, where the story is in Aramaic,
> Yaakov's reply is "Yehei shemei raba...".

Really? Source, please. I don't recall this at all.
- ---sam

AFAIK in Shas it is also "Boruch Shem..."
 However the  Targum Yerushalmi, Parshas Vaychi (49.1)
states "Yehei Shmey Rabbo."

SBA

In a message dated 11/3/99 8:02:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< 
 Same issue, Joel Rich <Joelirich@aol.com> writes:
 : This too is discussed by Poskim, while there are some who hold that even 
 : today we should follow the Mishne in Avos Ben Chomeish etc. there are 
those 
 : that hold that today that everything is in print is different (see S"A 
Horav 
 : first Perek of Hil. Talmud Torah).
 
 I find it interesting how well entrenched and idealized a HETER (really more
 of a "dan likaf zichus" for common practice) in Tosafos became.
 
 Another email from RJIR, same issue:
 : I seem to recall Sherlock Holmes saying that he did not need to know the 
 : distance from the earth to the sun, only where to look it up if he needed 
it.
 
 Contrasting with RYGB's <ygb@aishdas.org> statement from v3n98 which reads:
 : It is not possible to undertand Bavli without the rest of Bavli.
 
 The flaw with the Sherlock Holmes citation is that he assumes he's know when
 he'll need the information. The truth is that if you aren't sufficiently
 educated you don't know what questions to ask. Without the bekius, you can't
 know when your inyan intersects another. Tosafos-like analysis would be
 impossible. Even with a CD ROM -- what are you going to do, search for every
 synonym of every significant word in the inyan you're learning?
  >>
1. For the sake of intellectual honesty,  I didn't write the first item 
quoted here in my name and am as well bemused by the same observation as Micha

2. My Sherlock Holmes point was not that one doesn't need some bkiut, but 
that it's less than in former times. For example, I recently was asked about  
whether a Ben soreh ever existed. I remembered the gemora (in fact the 
mesechta) and that the phrase al tila was used. Presto - Sanhedrin 71a.  Not 
that I wouldn't have found it 10 years ago but it would have taken me a lot 
longer.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

Me thinks - Women should also be thus encouraged.
sk
Daniel Israel wrote:

> Mrs. Gila Atwood <gatwood@netvision.net.il> writes:
> > There is the concept of the menora representing full time learners on the
> > one side and ba'alei batim supporting them on the other side-  note all
> > lights on the same level.
>
> And Yeshivas fundraising letter are fond of telling you about
> Yissachar/Zevulon relationships.  But the unfortunate truth is that much
> of the Yeshiva world sees the menorah as a staircase instead.  Also, one
> large problem with this type of analogy is that it reinforces the
> stereotype of men having to choose to be either ba'alei batim (which
> begins to connote someone who pays for learning but isn't capable of
> doing much of it) or kollelite.  What about someone who arranges his
> work to leave a substantial part of the day to learn in Yeshiva, or
> someone who learns very seriously many hours after work?  Yes, there are
> very few men like that.  But maybe that is the problem.  More men should
> be encouraged to go that route.  But the current system just convinces
> us that no such route exists.
>
> --
> Daniel M. Israel
> <daniel@cfd.ame.arizona.edu>
> University of Arizona
> Tucson, AZ

> From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Soloveitchik & Feinstein 

> So... That's how you become a Gadol, You marry into
> the Family:)
> 
	You did call yourself an equal opportunity basher,  n'est ce pas?

Gershon

> From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Fw: Conspicuous Consumption, Luxury, Tzni'us, 

> So if someone experiences pleasure in the course of Avodat Hashem,
> and such pleasure were an all encompassing pleasure, could it still
> be "hesech ha'daat" regarding the geulah?
	I find it difficult to see how absorption in a mitzva could be called
hesech hada'as from geula.  It  **is**   the process of bringing geula.

Gershon

In v3#98, Moshe Feldman quoted me and wrote as follows:

>> Whether the authors of Shnay Luchos Habris, Kli Yakar or Peleh
>>Yoetz were
>> escetics (or had escetic mentalities) is similarly irrelevant to
>> evaluating the
>> propositions
>> for which I cited them
>>which have nothing to do with ascetic practices like
>> self-imposed
>> exile, immersion in an icy mikva, rolling in the snow or denying
>> oneself
>> reasonable
>> quantities of food and sleep.

>If a person has ascetic tendencies, they may manifest themselves in
>the extreme ways you mention, but they will also have an impact upon
>how the person views pleasure in general, even if one could
>technically explain why a non-ascetic could hold such a view.

I chap. 3, halacha 1 of Hilchos Dayos, Rambam rejects "extreme" escetic
practices such as regular fasting and sigufim. I always took this to establish
that Rambam is a non-ascetic. If I understand your approach, however, that
doesn't necessarily follow. He may nevertheless have ascetic tendencies
that are not manifest in such extreme ways, but that show up in his general
approach to pleasure. I.e., if he is not an ascetic in the strong sense, he may
still be an escetic in the weak sense.

In halacha 2 of the same chapter, Rambam states the principle that all of our
intentions and actions must be directed to y'dias hashem. As applications of
this principle, he says we should work to provide for our basic needs, not for
wealth, we should eat only to achieve/maintain health and we should have sex
only to procreate and relieve a bodily necessity ("k'mo derech harefua").

Having concluded from halacha 1 that Rambam was a non-ascetic, I always took
halacha 2 as just an expression of Torah values, not of some ascetic tendencies
that might not be derived from Torah. On your approach, however, Rambam may,
notwithstanding halacha 1, be an ascetic in the weak sense. In that case his
"pleasure-curbing statement" (to use your term) in halacha 2 would just be an
expression of ascetic tendencies and, as such, "will resonate less with members
of our generation" (again, to use your phrase). According to what you learned
from Rabbi Neuberger in choson class, one might even conclude that halacha
2 is "not appropriate in today's times."

In other words, we embrace the pleasure affirming statement of halacha 1 as
an expression of genuine Torah, even as we effectively discard the pleasure-
curbing statement of halacha 2 as an expression of ascetic tendencies that are
no longer valid.

Am I understanding you correctly?

When it comes to a ga'on hadoros like Rambam or Shal"a, I am very much inclined to ascribe whatever tendencies I find expressed in his work to his
profound understanding and sweeping synthesis of his vast Torah knowledge,
rather than to some non-Torah source that he, wittingly or unwittingly, imported
into Torah. I am very much inclined to assume that such a giant would measure
all non-Torah concepts and trends against Torah standards before adopting or
making any use of them, and would never smuggle such extraneous matters into
Torah because he was dazzled by their inherent appeal or failed to recognize he
had fallen under their influence. 

I am therefore wary of approaching works like Yad Hachazoko and Shnay
Luchos Habris with presuppositions based on some labeling (e.g., as "ascetic")
or historical/critical characterization of the author or his orientation. I feel
this
way about R' Y'huda Hachasid and Sefer Hachasidim as well and do not share
the approach you express in v4#99:

>BTW, after reading Dr. Chaim Soloveitchik's article regarding R'
>Yehuda Hachasid, I tend to be very cautious before accepting any
>recommendation/halacha from R' Yehuda Hachasid (since Dr. S wrote
>that RYH had certain philosophical motivations which permeated his
>entire work and are not hashkafically accepted today).

I think Sefer Chasidim should be studied as a pure Torah work, preferably
with the commentaries of Chida and R' Reuven Margolios, and the Ya'alzu
Chasidim of R' Eliezer Papo (author of Peleh Yo'etz). Whether to accept
or reject his recommendations/halachos? We don't follow every reccomendation/
halacha of Rambam, Rabaynu Tam or anyone else, but we do them the honor
of studying them as Torah and rejecting their views, when we do so, in the
spirit of aylu v'aylu divray Elokim chayim, not because we decide they were
pushing some non-Torah agenda.

Kol tuv,
David

From: TROMBAEDU@aol.com	
Subject: Re: Bios (was:  kidra chaysa)

In a message dated 11/2/99 10:58:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

<< I often wonder if the person standing next to me in shul or at mincha
at>>

<<I met Moshe Feldman at a wedding talking to my old friend Eliyahu Teitz
in just this fashion. Avi Feldblum and I met in person for the first time
when 
we turned out to be seated together at the Bar Mitzvah Moshe Bernstein 
recently made for his son, Michael. So, you never know......>>

Should we wear a name tag when attending public events?
Gershon

From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Scholars in Residence,Newsweek article 

<<IOW, there was a small but signifcant contingent of the Yeshivishe velt
that disagreed with the Rav's YU affiliation but did so most
respectfully.>>

	I was not in YU when I began attending the Rav's shiurim,  and I can
tell you that there was significant representation from many "RW",   for
lack of a better term,  yeshivas there.  There were carpools to Lakewood,
Baltimore,  Philadelphia,  and certainly Brooklyn.  There were many
others who did not attend but eagerly listened to the second hand
renderings of those who did.

Gershon

*********************


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