Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 104

Wednesday, November 3 1999

• Re: Excerpt from HaYom Yom
• secular education and Lubavitch
• Re: Limudei Chol
• Rabbenu Yonah and the Rambam
• Re: Lubavitch
• Rabbenu Yonah and the Rambam
• Rashi commentary
• Re: secular education and lubavitch
• Re: Soloveitchik & Feinstein
• Fw: Conspicuous Consumption, Luxury, Tzni'us,
• Re: Health of yeshiva students
• Re: Fw: Conspicuous Consumption, Luxury, Tzni'us,
• Re: secular education and lubavitch
• Re: Paroh identity
• Re: Avodah V4 #103
• Re: Health of yeshiva students
• Re: Avodah V4 #103
• Re: Paroh identity
• Re; Friendly fundamentalists
• Re: Excerpt from HaYom Yom
• Re: gedolei Torah or Torah based society

On 3 Nov 99, at 15:03, raffyd@juno.com wrote:

> Could someone explain today's footnote in the Lubavitch Calendar "HaYom
> Yom".
> 
> Raffy
> 
> 
> 
>             Also, this day is part of the Didan Natzach victory,
>             marking the issuance, in 5748 (1987), of a unanimous
>             ruling by a Federal Appeals Court, confirming and
>             strengthening the lower court's decision regarding
>             the Sfarim and K'tavim of the Rebbe'im.

If I recall correctly, when the Iron Curtain opened up, there was a 
dispute between the Rebbe and one of his relatives (a sibling?) over 
the Ksovim of the Rebbe and his predecessors which suddenly 
became accessible. 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Alan Davidson <perzvi@hotmail.com> wrote"
> Lots -- you are going to find much fewer Lubavitcher college professors but 
> outside of eretz Isroel frumkeit and academe don't mix too neatly.

I'm not sure why you say that.  The hours are flexible (for learning and
for YT).  The atmosphere is generally tolerant of kippahs, kashrus,
etc.

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
<daniel@cfd.ame.arizona.edu>
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ

Mrs. Gila Atwood <gatwood@netvision.net.il> writes:
> There is the concept of the menora representing full time learners on the
> one side and ba'alei batim supporting them on the other side-  note all
> lights on the same level.

And Yeshivas fundraising letter are fond of telling you about
Yissachar/Zevulon relationships.  But the unfortunate truth is that much
of the Yeshiva world sees the menorah as a staircase instead.  Also, one
large problem with this type of analogy is that it reinforces the
stereotype of men having to choose to be either ba'alei batim (which
begins to connote someone who pays for learning but isn't capable of
doing much of it) or kollelite.  What about someone who arranges his
work to leave a substantial part of the day to learn in Yeshiva, or
someone who learns very seriously many hours after work?  Yes, there are
very few men like that.  But maybe that is the problem.  More men should
be encouraged to go that route.  But the current system just convinces
us that no such route exists.

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
<daniel@cfd.ame.arizona.edu>
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ

Rabbenu Yonah's Shaare Teshuva has no hakdama.  Also, it is undated, so for
all we know it could have been written before the burning of the Talmud.
The source for the story is the "Iggeres HaKanoyis" of R. Hillel of Verona,
who on one hand claimed to be a student of Rabbenu Yonah, but on the other
hand was a vocal defender of the Rambam in the controversy over the Moreh
Nevuchim.  Also, R. Hillel, in his own name, offered his opinion that the
burning of the Talmud was a punishment for the burning of the Moreh.  As R.
Hillel told it, Rabbenu Yonah realized his error, went to all the synagogues
proclaiming that he was being punished, wrote the Shaarei Teshuva, and was
on his way to the Rambam's grave to ask forgiveness when he died.  The
problem is that no part of the story has been recounted by any other source.
If Rabbenu Yonah went to all the synagogues in France, someone would have
recorded it.  No one, including Rabbenu Yonah's cousin and mechuten the
Ramban.  Also, if he was going to Eretz Yisroel, he would have gone from
France to Italy for ship, or to Greece.  Instead, he went to Spain, in the
opposite direction, where he accepted a rabbinical position which he
occupied for the few years before he died.

To me, the whole story is questionable.

Levi Reisman

--- Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com> wrote:
> From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> 
> > How many FFB Lubavitchers have become MDs.  I'll
> bet
> > you not one.  
> 	I know at least one,  seventh generation Lubavitch,
>  who is a practicing
> physician.  His nephew,  eighth generation, is in
> medical school.     I
> know a couple of other Lubavitcher MD's but not well
> enough to know their
> FFB/BT status.   Same for some Lubavitchers with
> other degrees, 
> bachelor's and advanced.
> 
> 	Lubavitch is sufficiently laissez faire, 
> especially now after the
> Rebbe's death,  that those so inclined can follow
> their inclinations.
> 
> Gershon

Here in Chicago, there are many Lubavitchers who are
MD's etc. none of which were FFB Lubavitchers. I can
almost gaurantee you that none of their children will
be. 

I conceed the fact that there may be a stray FFB
Lubavitcher or two who has an MD or the like. But I
maintain that it is the exception to the rule.  In
every case. I'm sure it is a special situation. I
also, maitain that the Number is statistically
insignificant.

HM



=====

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One other point I forgot in my posting.  There are rishonim who state that
Shaare Teshuva is part of a series of books on the mitzvoth, and that there
were other "Gates" as well.  In other words, it was not written for a unique
reason.

Alan Davidson writes:
> the folks listed have at 
>least as much torah learning under their belt as the "chachamim" who managed 
>to write a certain five volume set of commentaries on Rashi without at least 
>once citing a Rav from outside the litvishe velt and a handful of 
>politically approved chassidic rebbeim.

Steve Katz adds:
>And how many time did they cite the Rav zt'l?

I don't know which set of commentaries on Rashi you are referring to, but I recommend ArtScroll's Sapirstein Rashi to both of you. It includes many comments from Sfas Emes and Likutei Yehudah (Ger) and Biurim Lepeirush Rashi al Hatorah (Lubavitch). I don't see how a work on Rashi can be criticized for not citing Rav Soloveichik zt'l enough when his published work does not include Rashi commentary. Nonetheless, the Sapirstein Rashi has a beautiful shtikl Torah of his which appears in the commentary to Bamidbar 9:14.

I am curious as to which set of Rashi commentary is based on literature from the Litvishe velt since the greater part of classical Rashi commentary is of Sephardic or German origin. I can think of the Litvishe commentaries Yerios Shlomo by the Maharshal and the very obscure She'eiris Yaakov offhand, but none others. That's hardly enough to fill a five volume set.

kol tuv,
Yisrael Herczeg

--- Alan Davidson <perzvi@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Not to get into the debate of who is a gadol, but
> Chabad can have its own 
> gedolim even not recognized universally as such --
> the folks listed have at 
> least as much torah learning under their belt as the
> "chachamim" who managed 
> to write a certain five volume set of commentaries
> on Rashi without at least 
> once citing a Rav from outside the litvishe velt and
> a handful of 
> politically approved chassidic rebbeim.


Why is it that I never hear about who are the
Lubavitcher Gedolim.  I live in the heart of
Lubavitch, Daven Shachris everyday in their Bnei
Ruven, their largest Shul and I learn daf Yomi in that
building every day.  I Know have many Lubavitcher
friends and non of them have ever spoken about a
Lubavitcher Gadol. Also, just because you have
"learning under your belt" that alone does not make
you a Gadol. I suspect that My concept of Gadol more
closely resembles Lubavitch's concept of "Rebbe". Only
to Lubavitchers, the Rebbe is not only the Gadol Hador
but the Nasi Hador, Tzadik HaDor, etc. etc. etc.

HM

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--- "Carl M. Sherer" <csherer@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> On 3 Nov 99, at 11:30, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> 
>   The Litvisher elite were often connected by
> various marriages...
> 
> That should read "are" often connected. The
> Steipler's wife was the 
> Chazon Ish's sister. R. Chaim Kanievsky's wife is R.
> Elyashiv's 
> daughter. I think R. Elyashiv and R. Shlomo Zalman
> were also 
> machatonim. Nothing has changed in that regard....


So... That's how you become a Gadol, You marry into
the Family:)

HM

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>
> You (David Nadoff) stated in the name of the Shal"ah that the pursuit of
pleasure
> <<. . . constitute a hesech hada'as in the anticipation of the g'ula
> (Shal"a, end of M'seches Suka).>>
>
>(Moshe Feldman)  It is my gut feeling (which I would appreciate someone
bearing out)
> that this statement might derive from an ascetic mentality.

There's a big difference between pursuing pleasure and experiencing
pleasure; and pleasure doesn't necessarily have to relate directly to
material goods.
A person can experience, even pursue pleasure even in a state of poverty-
not that I advocate this as a chosen lifestyle.
We have several separate issues here:

*Pursuing the acquisition of material goods for their own sake
*Using material goods as kelim for avodas Hashem

often related but not identical:

*Seeking pleasure for its own sake
*Experiencing pleasure in the course of avodas Hashem, embracing it (hearty
bircat hana'ah) and recognising its source.
*Avoiding pleasure wherever possible, even if it would be in the course of
avodas Hashem.

The latter is ascetism-  and is probably only appropriate to yechidim at
appropriate times.  These include preparation for nevuah (Moshe's separation
from his wife, the three days of hagbalah to some extent) preparation for
'meditation' (Rav Abulafia et al), fasts of penance-  (see in the Tanya,
numerous fasts proscribed for various averas-  not recommended today.
Even then it's said of the chochomim who fasted that their teeth became
black. Even with those who practised ascetism it was generally temporary and
for a specific purpose, not a life commitment.

One has to be very careful bezman hazeh in adopting any ascetic practises-
firstly simply from the medical point of view- "nishmartem me'od
benafshosechem", and secondly, it is very easy to get caught in a "piety
trip" in which the ego plays a star role.  This is not to judge the initial
intentions of any budding ascetic but simply a warning.
( I apologize that I seldom give sources, but assure you that all I write
here is based on my learning, sources sadly mislaid in my brain.)   Mrs. G.
A.

>
> A vaccine for hep A has recently been approved and licensed, and I wonder
whether the yeshivas will play any part in its distribution.  A search of
the literature does not yield much about health care in Israeli yeshivas.
Not having been to one, can I ask interested members of the list (they can
mail me off-list if this bores the pants off the rest of you) what the
situation is in yeshivas with regard to preventive health care?
>
> Sholem Berger

As someone who's "been there", this does interest me.  It's a horrible
disease that can weaken the system for a very long time. Hepatitis B vaccine
is automatically given to all children from the hospital and at the
maternity clinic. Our local G.P. (who learns all morning, by the way) gave a
talk to the women of our (charedi) community, amongst other things,
stressing the importance of the A and B vaccines for adults.

There is certainly awareness of this disease here-  any person who is
suffering from it is immediately isolated-  most Israelis know the drill.
People are very careful not to be exposed to a known sufferer, and run to
get gamma globulin if they have been inadvertantly exposed.  Even with this,
it often happens that a yeshiva bochur will not realise anything is
seriously wrong with him till he's already infected many people around him.
I have no idea where I caught it-  could have been the mikveh, a house fly,
contaminated water-  who knows?  Most people don't boil the tap water unless
there is a special health alert.  Filters are recommended for many reasons.
Mrs. G.A.

--- "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> often related but not identical:
> 
> *Seeking pleasure for its own sake
> *Experiencing pleasure in the course of avodas Hashem, embracing it
> (hearty
> bircat hana'ah) and recognising its source.
> *Avoiding pleasure wherever possible, even if it would be in the
> course of
> avodas Hashem.
> 
> The latter is ascetism-  and is probably only appropriate to
> yechidim at
> appropriate times.  

So if someone experiences pleasure in the course of Avodat Hashem,
and such pleasure were an all encompassing pleasure, could it still
be "hesech ha'daat" regarding the geulah?

Kol tuv,
Moshe


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--- harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Why is it that I never hear about who are the
> Lubavitcher Gedolim.  I live in the heart of
> Lubavitch, Daven Shachris everyday in their Bnei
> Ruven, their largest Shul and I learn daf Yomi in that
> building every day.  I Know have many Lubavitcher
> friends and non of them have ever spoken about a
> Lubavitcher Gadol. Also, just because you have
> "learning under your belt" that alone does not make
> you a Gadol. I suspect that My concept of Gadol more
> closely resembles Lubavitch's concept of "Rebbe". Only
> to Lubavitchers, the Rebbe is not only the Gadol Hador
> but the Nasi Hador, Tzadik HaDor, etc. etc. etc.

So perhaps the reason the Lubavitchers do not talk about having a
Gadol (even if according to Alan Davidson there are people who would
qualify) is that the Lubavitchers don't think in terms of Gedolim,
just in terms of an all-encompassing Rebbe.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

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See http://www.ncsy.org/chagim/pesach/whenex.htm, an article by Brad
Aaronson originally published in Jewish Action. Alternatively, you can
see http://members.tripod.com/~lifsha/history/ -- Lisa Liel's home page.
Both are the same theory, possibly at different stages of development.

Liel brings evidence to Velikovsky's dating of the period, and concluded
that the pharoa of the Exodus was Malul and Pepi II -- who most historians
believe to be two different people, but under this chronology is one.
It also does much to explain archeological findings about the bayis rishon
period.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  3-Nov-99: Revi'i, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 63a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 2

From: raffyd@juno.com
 
> Could someone explain today's footnote in the Lubavitch Calendar "HaYom
> Yom".
 
>             Also, this day is part of the Didan Natzach victory,
>             marking the issuance, in 5748 (1987), of a unanimous
>             ruling by a Federal Appeals Court, confirming and
>             strengthening the lower court's decision regarding
>             the Sfarim and K'tavim of the Rebbe'im.

I think this is the conclusion of the Barry Gourary suit.  Sholom 
Ber (Barry) Gourary was the nephew of the Lubavitcher Rebbe.  He 
had been willed (he claimed) certain books and manuscripts by the
Previous Rebbe, his grandfather.  He had these books.  It's not clear
to me whether he had walked into Crown Heights and taken them, or if
he had them from his parents from before the War.  At any rate, the
Lubavitch powers sued for them to be returned to the Rebbe's library,
regarding him as a criminal, a thief, and won.  Gourary claims that
before and during the suit, Lubavitch sent thugs to beat him up to get
him to return the books, which he claimed were his.  Largely as a result
of the bitterness caused by this case, Gourary is no longer particularly
religious.

I've heard, from my b-i-l the ex-lawyer, that this case is taught
in law schools in Wills & Estates.  Unfortunately, he tossed out 
most of his law books when he quit in disgust last summer, so I can't
get details from him.  Maybe Daniel Schwartz can give us the real
scoop?

R' Shimon Deutsch claims that he will explain the Gourary case in
the third volume of "Larger than Life"; who knows when he'll publish
it.  He introduced Gourary as a small boy in the second volume.

Why is this case so important to Lubavitch self-esteem as to warrant
this note in Hayom Yom?

       Jonathan Baker     |  Marches-wan, marches-two,
       jjbaker@panix.com  |  March the months all through and through

On 4 Nov 99, at 0:19, Mrs. Gila Atwood wrote:

> As someone who's "been there", this does interest me.  It's a horrible
> disease that can weaken the system for a very long time. 

I contracted Hep A as a bochur twenty-one years ago. We think I 
got it by finishing a cousin's piece of cake on Motzei Shabbos 
Shuva. I started to feel sick late in the day on Yom Kippur, and 
Motzei Yom Kippur I got a call telling me to go get a 
gammaglobulin shot. I started to feel REALLY sick on Shabbos 
Chol HaMoed Succos, did not return to Yeshiva for Simchas Torah 
(stayed with the same cousins - I eventually moved in with them for 
the entire time I was sick) and was officially diagnosed right after 
Yom Tov Sheini ended (subject to confirmation by urine and blood 
tests the following morning). 

During the course of the time I was well, I managed to cause two 
Yeshivas and a seminary (the result of one large party at the Plaza 
between Yom Kippur and Succos) to need vaccinations, and I 
know of 2-3 people who were infected through me. 

At the time, most people in Israel treated Hep A as a childhood 
disease; most Israelis expected to get it at some point. I was told 
flat out that had I been that sick in the US I would have been 
hospitalized, and I was considered to have a mild case (two and a 
half weeks of total bedrest, back to Yeshiva after three weeks with 
requirements that I sleep at least eight hours a night and three 
hours during the day and not have any oily Yeshiva food). I think 
the fact that they give a vaccination here today at all is largely 
because of the Anglo olim who pushed for it.

But you're right - even with my cousin having Hep A it didn't occur 
to me that I could have it until about ten days after I actually came 
down with it.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

The reported decision  in the Lubavitch sefarim case is

Agudas Chasidei Chabad of United States, Plaintiff-Appellee, v. Barry
Gourary, Defendant-Appellant, Hanna Gourary, Intervenor-Defendant-Appellant 

and is reported    at 833 F.2d 431, *; 1987 U.S. App. LEXIS 15206, **

No. 87-7224 

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE SECOND CIRCUIT 

June 25, 1987, Argued   
November 17, 1987, Decided 

//Avi

You brought these articles to my attention at an opportune time.  I
had just read an article by Ze'ev Herzog, a conventional historian,
explaining why the biblical account of the conquest of Israel made no
sense in light of archeological findings.  (The article may be found
at
http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/scripts/article.asp?mador=18&datee=10/31/99&id=60241
..)

Question: from a professional historian's perspective, how mainstream
is the position described by Aronson?  Have professional historians
considered it and found it wanting?

Kol tuv,
Moshe

--- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> See http://www.ncsy.org/chagim/pesach/whenex.htm, an article by
> Brad
> Aaronson originally published in Jewish Action. Alternatively, you
> can
> see http://members.tripod.com/~lifsha/history/ -- Lisa Liel's home
> page.
> Both are the same theory, possibly at different stages of
> development.
> 
> Liel brings evidence to Velikovsky's dating of the period, and
> concluded
> that the pharoa of the Exodus was Malul and Pepi II -- who most
> historians
> believe to be two different people, but under this chronology is
> one.
> It also does much to explain archeological findings about the bayis
> rishon
> period.
> 
> -mi
> 
> -- 
> Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  3-Nov-99: Revi'i,
> Sara
> micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
> http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim
> 63a
> For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.        
> Melachim-II 2
> 


=====

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While we're on the subject of who wants to convert us, Billy Graham is pretty
active at it as well. A number of the key people at the top of AmWay's
pyramid are followers of Graham. (This connection is why AmWay meetings,
at least all but the bottom-most level must, by the bylaws of the firm,
include a prayer.) He convinced them to tithe their AmWay-related profits to
j4j. My information is somewhat old, though. I have a record of Rev "Moish"
Rosen (the founder of j4j) thanking the leading figures in AmWay for keeping
his mission afloat.

Assuming this is going on a decade later, is it mutar to go into business
with AmWay? After all, it's not the business but individuals that are giving
the money. Either way, I find the idea repugnant.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  3-Nov-99: Revi'i, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 63a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 2

A grandson of the Friediker Rebbe's had started taking valuable books and
manuscripts out of the Lubavitch library started by the Friediker Rebbe
and selling them. He claimed that they were his rightful inheritance,
Lubavitch argued that they were the property of Agudas Chasidei Chabad,
that it wasn't a "private" collection. The court agreed with Lubavitch;
that day is celebrated on 5 Teves and is known as "Didan Natzach". Most if
not all of the books and manuscripts were recovered.

Josh

> From: raffyd@juno.com
> 
> Could someone explain today's footnote in the Lubavitch Calendar "HaYom
> Yom".
>             Also, this day is part of the Didan Natzach victory,
>             marking the issuance, in 5748 (1987), of a unanimous
>             ruling by a Federal Appeals Court, confirming and
>             strengthening the lower court's decision regarding
>             the Sfarim and K'tavim of the Rebbe'im.

In v4n98, RRW writes:
: Leimo ketanoi, the "chareidim" hold like RSBY, nasseh al yedei acheirim?

Actually, R Dr Norman Lamm already suggested the comparison. That was
the speech with the word "caveman" in it. He compared the pure study-for-
myself-only kollel to RSBY's cave. FWIW, after seeing the speech, it was
clear to me that he meant it as a positive alternative, but a different
derech than the one he wanted for RIETS. The choice of word was certainly
ill advised, as we know how it was taken in other quarters.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  3-Nov-99: Revi'i, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 63a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 2

*********************


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