Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 101

Wednesday, November 3 1999

• Scholars in Residence,Newsweek article
• Yehei Shmei
• RSBY vs. RY
• anonymity
• Lubavitch
• Re: anonymity
• Newsweek article
• RE: Limudei Chol
• RE: Newsweek article
• Catch Up Learning
• R. Berel Wein
• Ponevez
• secular studies
• limudei chol
• Re: Bekius
• Re[2]: Limudei Chol
• Parsha question Simcho and Aveilus
• RE: Denigration of Bekiyus?!
• Re: Tephillin Dates
• general position and occasional fanatic
• Change, variation and transmission of halacha

In my community(Kew Gardens Hills), I have been zoche to work with an ad hoc 
group which sponsors shiurim on legal holidays. we have had Roshei Yeshiva 
from Lakewood, NIRC, RIETS and many other yeshivos. We apply no political 
litmus test . Our only requirement is that the speaker is an 
outstandingTalmid Chacham Shegiha Lhorah who has the right and ability to say 
a shiur in his Mesorah.Our speakers have included Rav Yerucham Olshin , Rav 
Yitzchak Breitowitz, Rav Tzvi berkowitz, Rav Schachter and a Rosh yeshiva 
from Bobov.Our annual Selichos shiurim are given by Rav Schachter and Rav 
Yitzchak Noach Oelbaum.In our shul, we have had Rav Schachter, Rav Yisssachar 
Frand, Rav A.C.Feuer, Rav Kirzner z'l and Rav Tzvi Hersch Weinrib(father of 
list member Shaul Weinrib). We have also sponsored speakers on Motaei Shabbos 
such as Rabbi Berel Wein Dr JJ scachter, Dr Sid Z Leiman, Dr David Berger , R 
David Weinberger and Rav Tzvi Flaum.The key is quality and intellectual 
honesty, not adherence to any sense of being religiously/politically correct. 
   The incident described by Harry Maryles involving Mori Urabi Rav Schachter 
is not the first such incident. I understand that after the petirah of RYBS 
ZTL, that he was not permitted to speak at a certain shul because of his YU 
affiliation and that when he spoke in Philadelphia, Rav Svei was out of town. 
I would think that all list members are aware that Rabbeinu Yonah wrote 
Shaarei teshuvah because of his role in the Maimondean controversy after 
asking mechilah at the kever of the Rambam. the Agudah and the Moetzes missed 
a historic opportunity to be "koneh olam habah bsha achas" . Instead , it 
denigrated RYBS in the manner of "acharei mos, kdoshim , emor" with the no
able exception of Rav Shmuel Yaakov Weinberg Zl.
   have any list members seen this week's Newsweek? It has a fascinating book 
excerpt of a reunion between two brothers, one a charedi baal teshuva and his 
long lost brother(the author). The Bt's comment are unfortunate, inane and of 
questionable halachic veracity(i.e.check out his comments on US/Canadian 
customs) if he had been a Brisker, he would have recognized that"not 
everything that you think should be said and that not evrything that you say 
should be published"!!  Unfortunately, his views will be quoted as those of 
an "authentic Torah observant Jew".    
                                                                              
          Zeliglaw@aol.com(Steven Brizel)
   

From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
> Subject: Baruch Sheim and Yehei Sh'mei
> 
> I thought the identification was made on the basis of the two 
> versions of the aggadita. In the medrash, when the sons say "Shema
Yisrael",  Yaakov replies "Baruch sheim...". However in shas, where the
story is in Aramaic, Yaakov's reply is "Yehei shemei raba...".
	Do you have a source for this?  The piece in Rav Dovid Cohen's sefer
which I referenced does not mention it and it appears to be his own
shita.

Gershon

> From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" 
> <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> Subject: Re: gedolei Torah or Torah based society
> 
> Firstly, with our recent discussion of anoymity, pro and con, it 
> would be nice to know who Mr. "Gil Student" is, so I know whom I am 
> addressing.
	That is his name.

> In this case, the Litvishe yeshiva world is based on the philosophy 
> of the Nefesh Ha'Chaim, who, in Sha'ar Aleph, paskens like RSBY over R'

> Yishmael. Ayain sham heiteiv.
	Achar ha'iyun, it is very hard to simply say that he paskins one way or
the other. His interpretation of Rabi Yishmael's "hanheg bohem midas
derech eretz" means that the "harbeh osu"  is constantly thinking in
learning while doing derech eretz.  This is not usually considered poshut
pshat.

Gershon

From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" 
> <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> Subject: Re: gedolei Torah or Torah based society
> 
> Firstly, with our recent discussion of anoymity, pro and con, it 
> would be nice to know who Mr. "Gil Student" is, so I know whom I am 
> addressing.
	As someone who davens in the same shul as him, that is his name.

Gershon

From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>

> How many FFB Lubavitchers have become MDs.  I'll bet
> you not one.  
	I know at least one,  seventh generation Lubavitch,  who is a practicing
physician.  His nephew,  eighth generation, is in medical school.     I
know a couple of other Lubavitcher MD's but not well enough to know their
FFB/BT status.   Same for some Lubavitchers with other degrees, 
bachelor's and advanced.

	Lubavitch is sufficiently laissez faire,  especially now after the
Rebbe's death,  that those so inclined can follow their inclinations.

Gershon

Well then, indeed, let me publicly apologize to Mr. Student. As my limited
understanding of e-mails addresses has led me to believe they are often not
reflections of the person's real name, I had assumed that this was not Mr.
Student's as well. Sorry!

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org


----- Original Message -----
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
To: <asbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>; <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 10:49 PM
Subject: anonymity


> From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
> > <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> > Subject: Re: gedolei Torah or Torah based society
> >
> > Firstly, with our recent discussion of anoymity, pro and con, it
> > would be nice to know who Mr. "Gil Student" is, so I know whom I am
> > addressing.
> As someone who davens in the same shul as him, that is his name.
>
> Gershon
>

On 2 Nov 99, at 23:01, Zeliglaw@aol.com wrote:

>    have any list members seen this week's Newsweek? It has a fascinating book 
> excerpt of a reunion between two brothers, one a charedi baal teshuva and his 
> long lost brother(the author). The Bt's comment are unfortunate, inane and of 
> questionable halachic veracity(i.e.check out his comments on US/Canadian 
> customs) if he had been a Brisker, he would have recognized that"not 
> everything that you think should be said and that not evrything that you say 
> should be published"!!  Unfortunately, his views will be quoted as those of 
> an "authentic Torah observant Jew".    

Is the article available online? Can you post a URL?

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> According to Shneur Leiman, the Netziv didn't want limudei chol in the
> yeshiva. However, unlike his predecessor, he chose to accept
> limudei chol
> rather than close down the school. One can't cite this as an
> example of
> being pro-secular studies, just of being less anti.


The Torah Temima in Makor Baruch (and translated into English as My Uncle
the Netziv, the only Artscroll book put into cherem in Lakewood) brings that
the only exception to Limudei Chol was when the government wanted the
*majority* of the day to be spent on secular subjects.

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

http://www.newsweek.com/nw-srv/printed/us/so/a59713-1999oct31.htm



===========================
Akiva Atwood                 
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274  



> > should be published"!!  Unfortunately, his views will be 
> quoted as those of 
> > an "authentic Torah observant Jew".    
> 
> Is the article available online? Can you post a URL?
> 
> -- Carl
> 
> 
> Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
> Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
> Thank you very much.
> 
> Carl and Adina Sherer
> mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
> 

I'm beginning to think that we are talking across each other. But I'll 
try this one more time, and if I still think you're not understanding 
what I am trying to say then I can console myself that at least 
RYGB understands....

Gil Student (quoting me) writes:

>      >>I'm saying that an American iluy can almost never catch up to the 
>      level of bekiyus that the Israeli gets as a child. That has nothing to 
>      do with secular studies. It has to do with language, and the age and 
>      level at which the Israeli starts out learning Mishna and Gemara. For 
>      example, in our neighborhood, there are constantly contests for even 
>      the youngest kids to learn Mishnayos by heart. There are constantly 
>      competitive tests in Halacha and Tanach that are given on a citywide 
>      scale. There are constant (nightly) learning sdorim for kids who are 
>      10 and 11 and 12 with prizes for showing up regularly.>>
>      
>      This is done in some communities in Chutz La'aretz also, although 
>      probably not on the same scale.  Have you ever been to Brooklyn?

I've probably been to Brooklyn more times than you have (unless 
you live or grew up there). I've only been in EY for eight years, and 
before that I lived in the New York area for about twice that long. 

Generally, there is no comparison between the number of 
opportunities a kid has to learn outside of school in a fruhm 
community in Israel and the opportunities he has in the States. 
And that's aside from what you can arrange on your own. Most of 
the competitions I spoke of were outside of school.

>      >>>>Are you willing to say that to R. Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg's 
>      face?>>>>
>      
>      >>I don't think he went to college, but that's beside the point. 
>      Although he was born in America, his training was in Europe (R. 
>      Scheinberg learned in Mir - the town - not just the Yeshiva).>>
>      
>      If I remember correctly from "All For The Boss," he learned in Yeshiva 
>      University and graduated from college.

The book says that he went to "Rav Yitzchak Elchanan Yeshiva." 
My wife points out that in those days you could go to the Yeshiva 
part of YU without going to the college part. I don't know whether R. 
Scheinberg has a college degree, but he may well. I can tell you 
that I have a relative whom R. Scheinberg talked out of going to 
college twenty years ago. That relative is still sitting and learning 
today.

Why don't you ask R. Scheinberg if the iluyim in his Yeshiva are 
the boys who grew up here or the boys that came for a year or two 
from there? 

>      >>>>What about R. Hershel Schachter?>>>>
>      
>      >>I didn't say there weren't exceptions. But that just proves the 
>      rule.>>
>      
>      I thought we were talking about iluyim who are the exceptions.

What I said was that boys have a head start in learning in Eretz 
Yisroel because they do not have the language barrier. I also said 
that when boys from chutz la'aretz are able to devote themselves 
full time to learning, they often have a fresher approach to it than 
Israeli boys who are the same age, and can catch up to all but the 
best Israeli boys (the "Iluyim") sometime between the ages of 16 
and 21. But it is unlikely that anyone starting at the type of 
disadvantage with which boys in chutz la'aretz start will catch an 
Israeli boy who is an Ilui who applies himself full time to learning 
from Day One.

I also said (and I made this a separate paragraph because RYGB 
and I may part company here, and since I implied that he agreed 
with me, it is only fair to point out where he may not) that I believe 
that by giving an Israeli boy a small amount of secular education, 
one could reduce the risk of burnout that permeates Israeli Yeshiva 
Ktanas (which I understand from people in the know is 20-30%), 
one could give the Israeli boy that same feeling of freshness when 
he enters Yeshiva Gdola that a chutz la'aretz boy has when he 
enters Yeshiva Gdola and has no secular studies for the first time, 
and you can give the Israeli boy a basis for parnassa if he ever 
leaves the walls of the Yeshiva. I also said that I did not think that 2-
3 hours a day of secular studies (and I would add, at a time of day 
that is not, for example, 9:00 A.M. - 12 Noon) would interfere with 
the Israeli boy's learning enough to put him on less of a level in 
learning than a Yeshiva Ktana boy (something which has IMHO 
been proven over the course of many years here), while it would 
give him enough of a distraction to make the Yeshiva Gdola 
learning feel "fresh."

You then go on to list most of the Rebbeim in YU (I am curious 
why you did not mention R. Moshe Tendler, whom I would certainly 
rank right up there), in what looks like a "my father can beat up 
your father" type of argument. I am not going to start listing Israeli 
Gdolim who are their contemporaries (although in R. Twersky's 
case, they are old enough to be his father - R. Twersky was a few 
years behind me in Maimonides, and I'm not that old yet). That's 
not the point. Look where most of the horaa is coming from since 
R. Moshe and R. Yaakov were niftar. Look where most of the 
sforim are published (and not just because of cost). You mention a 
friend of yours who published a sefer. I also have friends in America 
who published sforim FWIW. But there are probably twenty guys 
(at least) IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD who have published sforim. 
When a guy gets up in shul to give a shiur on Friday night, there 
are often twenty guys who will start arguing with him, showing a 
command of shas and poskim b'al peh that I rarely saw (although I 
will not say that I never saw it) in the States (and I lived in a 
yeshivishe community in the States, at least for the last eight 
years I was there). I stay out of those discussions. Katonti.... 

>      >>What I also said is that the chutznikim have an ability to overcome 
>      their natural disadvantage because of the freshness with which they 
>      often arrive at Yeshiva here. I believe that freshness is the result 
>      of suddenly having the burden of secular studies lifted when the 
>      chutznik arrives here.>>
>      
>      I think that you are now referring to those who are not iluyim.  Avira 
>      de'ara machkim - I'm not disagreeing with that.  The lack of 
>      distractions from learning such as secular studies, TVs, and movies 
>      also have a lot to do with their success in learning.  The fact that 
>      the ONLY adult influence on the bochurim is their rebbeim is also a 
>      large factor (i.e. no parents).  However, I know talmidei chachomim, 
>      my rebbe muvhak included, who had great success in learning despite 
>      spending no or very little time in Eretz Yisrael and going to college. 
>       Iluyim can do it.  It's the regular Joes who can't.

I don't think it's coming to Eretz Yisrael that necessarily helps the 
American bochur catch up to the ordinary Israeli bochur, unless 
that is the first time he is away from the distractions. I have heard 
from many people in the know that if a bochur from chutz la'aretz 
plans to spend a lot of time learning (as opposed to one who is 
going to learn for a year or two after high school and then go to 
college or work), he is better off coming here at the age of 21-22 
than coming at the age of 18-19 when he still has a lot of growing 
up to do. If a bochur follows that path, much of his catching up will 
be done before he ever gets here.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> > 
> > In a recent talk in J'lem, Rabbi Beryl Wein compared
> > the grinding poverty
> > of Frum Jews in Eastern Europe during the 19th
> > Century (which he feels
> > produced the Jewish socialists, secular zionists,
> > reform, and the roots of
> > the present day religious-secular schism) and that
> > of the present day
> > Hareidi community in Israel, and noted that it will
> > sooner or later blow up
> > as well under the economic pressure.
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if his talk made it into print
> anywhere? I would love to see more of what this former
> esteemed RH, author, alumnus of HTC and brother in law
> to R. A.C. Levin (RH of Telshe and Member of the
> Moetzes) has to say on the matter.
> 
On the other hand I find his tapes on Jewish History much
better than books. The books are very politically correct while
the tapes contain his humor.

Just as a tiny example example in his tapes his stresses that
myths about gedolim frequently are not true but have the benefit
that they describe the man even when the details arent true.
Nothing like that made it into the book.

Another pet peeve of mine is that there is nothing about Rav Soloveitchik
in the book. He has a picture of him and he is mentioned as disagreeing
with the psak about working with reform/conservative rabbis.
In the section on YU only Rav Lifschutz and Rav Gorelik (both close
to Agudah) are mentioned.

Eli Turkel

> > 
> > With reference to limudei chol: in the years I learned in Ponevez
> > (1953-56), it was official policy of the Ponevezer Rav to reserve 
> > 25% of the places in the Yeshiva for the graduates of three
> > yeshivot tichoniyot: Chorev, in Yerushalayim; Yishuv Hechadash, in Tel
> > Aviv; and Midr'shiyat Noam, in Pardes Chana.  At that time, Harav Shach
> > was a rosh yeshiva, but was not known to have expressed any opinion 
> > against their presence.
> 
On the other hand rumor has it that the policy was stopped when
several boys originally from Yishuv Hechadash joined the army after
many years in Ponovez.

Eli Turkel

> 
> Tad slanderous here!
> 
> Laws require schooling throught the tenth grade, they do not dictate
> curricula.
> 
> There is, now, a prohibition on opening Boys' HS's with Limudei Chol in the
> township of Lakewood (that is, for those affiliated with the Yeshiva
> community). This is done completely aboveboard and legally. The children
> continue schooling, just not schooling with Limudei Chol.
> 

I find this hard to believe. Can any of colleagues in NJ check it out.
In my day there was a minumum curriculum eg math & English that was
required not just being off the streets.

Eli Turkel

>      
>>Leimo ketanoi, the "chareidim" hold like RSBY, nasseh al yedei acheirim?>>
>>Harbeh asu keRSBY velo alsa biydeihem.  See the Gra that this derech 
>> is only valid for a minority.  It doesn't work for most people.

This does seem to have been the shita of RSBY himself!

Eli Turkel

In a message dated 11/2/99 10:58:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

<< 
 <>
 
    This works well if you assume that the Bar-Ilan CD can take the place of
 learning.  RYGB's hanacha rishona was,  correctly,  that it cannot.
 
 Gershon
  >>
But it can to an extent take the place of the advantage of a photographic 
memory

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

I may have posted soemthing on this before, please forgive any redundancy:


     W/O getting into the specifics, it seems clear to me that the salient issue 
     that caused the Netziv to close Volozhin was the fact thatt he refused to 
     have the Russian government dictate what was studied and how long.  It was 
     particularly offensive because of the Anti-Semitic nautre of the czarist 
     regime.  It is likely that had they insisted on lean
     
     In fact, it might be today, that if the Department of Education dictated to 
     Lakewood that they must spend 2 hours a day in chumash and Rashi (taking 
     away from Gemoro) that the Netziv might have felt the same way about it.  
     IOW, secular education was NOT the main point.  The Ikkar objection was 
     having a secualr government dictate ot the yeshiva what to do (and what NOT 
     to do by default). And that was especially true of an openly anti-Semitic 
     czarist regime.
     
Rich Wolpoe



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


Gila Atwood mentioned the oft-denied presence of limudei chol in the final 
years of Vilozhin.

<snip>

-mi

-- 

I'd like to take an educaetd stab.

From what I see R, Nachamn opposed ATZVUS and not aveilus.

When I was menachem oveil twice to Rebbetzin Alpert (once for her son and once 
for her husband ZTL) I noticed how she focused upon the niftar's great qualities
and how she missed them. (w/o once feeling sorry for herself!) Healthy Aveilus 
is about Cahval d'avdon, we have wuffered a loss.  We miss the niftar, we miss 
our earth-bound tangible connection, we miss his/her good deeds, etc.

Atzvus is about pessimism. EG: Woe unto me that hashem punished me.  I will 
never again enjoy life.  I cannot go on w/o him/her. I am lost.

That is NOT about missing a loved one, that's about depression!

We mourn the loss of the BhM becase of all the wonderful things it had and did. 
But we go right on davening, learning, and being Jews nevertheless.  We don't 
quit in pessimistic resignation saying it's all over for us.

One can have a certain sense of being optmistic and feeling warm towards Hashem,
and still feel a deep sense of loss.  Perhaps this is related to the simcho as 
R. Nachman saw it.

Rich Wolpoe



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


RMMShneerson also invoked the idea that man's natural state is ambivalence 
to explain a famous quote from R' Nachman.

"Mitzvah gedolah lihyos bisimchah tamid." But what about omer, Tish'a B'av, 
and aveilus in general?

RMMS explains that feeling simchah doesn't preclude simultaneously mourning. 
People often feel two different emotions at once.

(My resolution, before hearing of this one, is that "simchah" means "samei'ach 
bichelko". This is certainly the impression one gets from Likutei Moharan -- 
that a lack of simchah shows a lack of bitachon that "gam zu litovah". In which 
case, one can be content with their lot while still being unhappy.)

-mi

RW wrote:
"What the Rav objected too {primarily} IMHO was sitting down to
learn GEMORO bekios."

Long winded story alert  -  
Several years ago at Ner Yisrael, it seems that a chaburah of 
younger bochurim (1-3 yr bais medrash) were "speeding" through the 
mesechta during 2nd seder (all I remember for sure is that they were 
skipping Tosephos and moving at a very fast (blatt or more per day) pace)
When R' Kulefsky heard about this he spoke strongly against it at his 
Friday nite "tisch". Between this and some startling statements I later 
heard in his name regarding Daf Yomi I asked him privately. He told me 
that "If you want to learn Gemora with Rashi for an hour or hour and half
AFTER (emphasis mine) Maariv, fine, as long as you chazer" 

kol tuv
Sender Baruch

It sounds like we should be more taken aback by one
> Jew defrauding another while wearing a kippa(or hat:-)), if this did
occur.
>
> Kol Tuv,
> Joel Rich
>
Undoubtedly.  The issue here is the pronounced dichotomy in lifestyle.
Certainly the Tefilin confers a zchut, but the person who uses them should
know better. If he's makpid about the dinim of tefillin, what about the
diorysa on relations with a nidah and the issur on pilegesh in the extremely
unusual instances where the girl actually keeps all the dinim of TM. We're
talking about premeditated choice here.
After Bila'am's attempt to curse failed, he tried to undermine our zchut by
way of the Midianite women. We have a very clear tradition that G-d hates
sexual immorality. A Tefilin date (I have no direct evidence of this
phenomenon by the way) would be a union of two extreme opposites.
By the way-  how do people feel when they finish an evening's entertainment
consisting of a movie or book which is far away from Torah hashkafah-  then
it comes time to say Krias Shma al a mita.  Do people feel a disturbing
dissonance-  and if not, why not?

Mrs. G. Atwood

Lots of (outwardly) religious folk were quite vocal in Wyoming before the
homosexual teenager was murdered -- and mysteriously silent when it came
time to testify to the killing...
>
This reminds me of the "cheshbon hanefesh" that the 'RW' were called upon to
perform after the assassination of PM Rabin alav hashalom.  Many 'RW'  were
intensely vocal against Rabin's policies regarding Oslo prior to the murder,
but were embarassed into silence for a while afterwards.

Zo Artzenu (organisation of non violent civil disobedience) immediately
published a prominent condemnation of the assassination in the papers.

Someone asked me if I was doing a cheshbon hanefesh. (actually, a neighbour
involved with me in Z.A.) My response, simply that I did not relate at all
to the violence of Yigal Amir's act, and did not consider myself involved in
any way in such incitement simply as a result of my stance regarding
security.  I have enough personal stuff in my cheshbon hanefesh bag,
thankyou very much!
In other words, if the cap fits, wear it,  but silence has a variety of
interpretations, shock and pain do not imply guilt. Certainly a whole group
of people with a position should not be blamed for creating a minority of
sick individuals who would use that position as a motive for an unacceptable
act.  The vast majority of mainstream Judaism also condemns homosexuality
but would not kill a homosexual. Are we saying that Xtians as a whole don't
have that restraint? This is not a rhetorical question.
Mrs. G.A.

>
> This again would justifying only rolling back mistaken heteirim. Mistaken
> chumros (in the few cases where no kulah is involved as well) could never
> be outside of halachah -- at worst, shava alei chaticha di'isura or lifnim
> mishuras hadin.
>
> -mi<<
>
Re  takanot and gezerot when conditions change.  E.g. takana of Ezra
forbidding laundry of clothes for Shabbos on Erev Shabbos.
(since this activity could distract us from food preparation-  preparation
of clothes for Shabbos should be completed by Thursday night.)  (as learned
directly from my Halacha teacher Rav Elazar Barclay here. )
These days the use of washing machines and driers make clothes preparations
no big deal- esp if we don't have to iron.
Do we say this takana is no longer in force?  Take also the gezera
concerning musical instruments on Shabbos which has spread to all kinds of
items that do not require tuning-  from babies' rattles to tapping the table
while singing zemirot. Do we say that the gezera is not applicable in these
cases or do we say that the gezera had other reasons (aside from the tuning
issue) which may have been lost in transmission?

btw re transmission-  there is a mesora that each shevet did have different
nusachim for davenning-  could other  variations also exist between
shevatim?  In terms of 70 facets-  I understand this to mean seventy ways to
understand a pasuk on an intellectual level, but not necessarily implying
variations in halacha lema'aseh. Perhaps it's just my limitation, but I find
it very hard to imagine a Torah from Moshe that presented us with a variety
of alternatives in halacha lema'aseh-  (take the negiah variations existing
today as listed in a previous post. )  IMHOThere must be a standard.  It's
not for me to say who for sure knows which standard is correcttoday in any
particular issue! :-)

Mrs. G.A.

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