Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 100

Tuesday, November 2 1999

• Re: Conspicuous Consumption, Luxury, Tzni'us, Etc. [was What Els
• Re: Limudei Chol
• Baruch Sheim and Yehei Sh'mei
• Re: Men's Roles
• Re: Limudei Chol
• Re: luxuries
• Re: Parsha question
• Re: Conspicuous Consumption, Luxury, Tzni'us, Etc. [was What Els
• Re: gedolei Torah or Torah based society
• Re: monoliths and tefilin
• Re: Conspicuous Consumption, Luxury, Tzni'us, Etc. [was What Els
• Re: Women/psak
• Charedi College
• secular education and Lubavitch
• Re: Avodah V4 #99
• Bekius
• Bios (was: kidra chaysa)
• Bekius
• Charedi university
• Bekius

--- david.nadoff@bfkpn.com wrote:

> 
> I am  troubled, however, by the approach of some
> posters who, apparently
> disagreeing
> with these premises or my practical application of
> them, have labeled those
> applications
> as socialist or ascetic (or as deriving from an
> ascetic mentality). Although
> probably not
> intended as such, that is a subtle variety of
> name-calling that makes it very
> difficult to deal
> with the sources and the issues on their merits.

I apologize profusely if I offended you. (I seem to be
doing that a lot lately.)  I sometimes use hyperble to
illustrate a point.  Certainly, modest lifestyles are
not necessairly socialistic.  I merely wanted to point
out that if you follow this type of logic to it's
conclusion you could end up with a socialistic
society, as you even pointed this out in a later part
of this post, which I have deleted in the interest of
brevity..

HM

=====

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Gila Atwood mentioned the oft-denied presence of limudei chol in the final
years of Vilozhin.

According to Shneur Leiman, the Netziv didn't want limudei chol in the
yeshiva. However, unlike his predecessor, he chose to accept limudei chol
rather than close down the school. One can't cite this as an example of
being pro-secular studies, just of being less anti.

FWIW, it might also be that in R' Chaim's day it was clearly proposed as an
attack on the school, a way to lesson the limudei kodesh schedule, whereas
the Netziv faced a general law about universal education standards across
the country.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  2-Nov-99: Shelishi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 62b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

I thought the identification was made on the basis of the two versions of
the aggadita. In the medrash, when the sons say "Shema Yisrael", Yaakov
replies "Baruch sheim...". However in shas, where the story is in Aramaic,
Yaakov's reply is "Yehei shemei raba...".

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  2-Nov-99: Shelishi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 62b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 11/2/99 7:09:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, Pawshas@aol.com 
writes:

<< 
 One possible thought - "beZeias Apecha Tochal Lechem," and working for a 
 living. This is problematic, though, for many obvious reasons - men who 
don't 
 need to work, for example.
  >>
Not so obvious - if there is a redemptive quality to work (ie becoming a 
partner with Hashem in creation - see Vayikra Rabba 25:3) then "needing" 
(financial need I assume) is not necessarily the only issue

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

That is the position that is taken by the YK system.
> Whether one agrees or not, for their goals, it is understandable.
>
>
> YGB
>
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
> ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila
>
> Are the gedolim we know actually products of this system? I understood
that most of them actually benefitted from tutoring on a more individual
level.
The schemes in place now, from vocational yeshiva katanas to Machon Lev may
seem too little and too late.  Yes, we can say it's a great pity they
weren't in place ten years ago.  Since we don't have the luxury of changing
history we need to focus on our present assets and nurture them.  I
personally feel confident that these schemes will grow in momentum,
influence and respectability just given the necessity we face.
By the way, parnasa is not easy for the ba'al habayit over here! There are
hard working ba'alei batim who still have difficulty making ends meet. Many
would still be considered below poverty level by American standards-  though
basic needs are covered. (esp with the help of gemachim)  We don't have the
reductions in arnona etc etc that the collelleit have. We do at least have a
daf yomi shiur in this Jerusalem neighbourhood and certainly a concept of
koveya itim by conscientious ba'alei batim.
There is the concept of the menora representing full time learners on the
one side and ba'alei batim supporting them on the other side-  note all
lights on the same level.  Does anyone know the reference?

As for tainted Torah-  may I mention the GRA, the Rambam, the latest
Lubavicher Rebbe and probably a great many others we respect?

Mrs GA
>

> But I think there's a line that can be drawn between conspicuous
> consumption that is a means of flaunting what one has, and
> making an affair at which guests will feel comfortable and will come
> to be mesameyach and not just for the fancy food.

We also need to ask the actual chasan, calla or bar mitzva boy what kind of
simcha is comfortable for them. Seems obvious, but it seems they often get
left out of the picture. We recently made a bar mitzva celebration for our
ben bechor. It was very important to us that he is informed of all aspects
of the celebration and that he was happy with them, choices offered where
appropriate.
We also know of one son of a rich couple who was given the choice of a
lavish do in the U.S. or a modest celebration over here. He chose the
latter. It's the boy's simcha- he probably doesn't care about centrepieces
and the colour of the clothes.
Of course, by then they should have received the chinuch that won't have
them requesting Gala Titanic bat mitzvas.   Mrs. G.A.

RMMShneerson also invoked the idea that man's natural state is ambivalence
to explain a famous quote from R' Nachman.

"Mitzvah gedolah lihyos bisimchah tamid." But what about omer, Tish'a B'av,
and aveilus in general?

RMMS explains that feeling simchah doesn't preclude simultaneously mourning.
People often feel two different emotions at once.

(My resolution, before hearing of this one, is that "simchah" means "samei'ach
bichelko". This is certainly the impression one gets from Likutei Moharan --
that a lack of simchah shows a lack of bitachon that "gam zu litovah". In which
case, one can be content with their lot while still being unhappy.)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  2-Nov-99: Shelishi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 62b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 11/2/99 6:57:23 PM US Central Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< Certainly, modest lifestyles are
 not necessairly socialistic.  I merely wanted to point
 out that if you follow this type of logic to it's
 conclusion you could end up with a socialistic
 society, as you even pointed this out in a later part
 of this post, which I have deleted in the interest of
 brevity.. >>


Community-imposed constraints on material consumption are ultimately 
socialistic, perhaps. But "socialism," thus understood, imitates many deeply 
Jewish ideas on how society should order itself. Rabbinic Judaism is a 
complex collection of quasi-socialistic rules restricting individualistic 
conduct. In more ways than one, the Shulchan Aruch is the ultimate socialist 
tract. What's the difference between harsh, seemingly arbitrary restrictions 
on what one can buy and show off, on the one hand, and equally harsh, 
seemingly arbitrary restrictions on what one can wear, learn, eat, drink, and 
lust after? Why should room be made for extravagant spending if no room is 
made for other self-indulgent behavior? What, halachically, is the difference 
between material modesty (optional) and sexual modesty (mandatory)? 

I offer no opinion here, other than to point out that this is a complex 
subject.

David Finch

Firstly, with our recent discussion of anoymity, pro and con, it would be
nice to know who Mr. "Gil Student" is, so I know whom I am addressing.

That having been said, it is also incumbent upon those who would advance
their philosophy to be aware of the counerclaims of opposing philosophies.

In this case, the Litvishe yeshiva world is based on the philosophy of the
Nefesh Ha'Chaim, who, in Sha'ar Aleph, paskens like RSBY over R' Yishmael.
Ayain sham heiteiv.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <gil.student@citicorp.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>; <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: gedolei Torah or Torah based society


>      Harbeh asu keRSBY velo alsa biydeihem.  See the Gra that this derech
>      is only valid for a minority.  It doesn't work for most people.
>
>

Akiva Atwood asks us to imagine the disappearance of all batim machers and
sofrim. Two generations later, who would know what order the parshios are
supposed to be in?

The question is lima'aseh. So, taking it out of our imagination: What was the
last period of time before Rashi and Rabbeinu Tam in which this could have
happened? My guess would be Galus Bavel.

The truth is that we wouldn't even need this mishap. All you need is a bunch
of textualists to argue that the common practice may be wrong and you could
have a second shitah become commonplace.

At this point I feel the aptness of my example is moot, as others have shown
numerous mekoros that Mosheh Rabbeinu taught a Torah that provided multiple
answers to many questions. To reuse one of my favorite quotes, "'Diracheha
darchei no'am' is in lashon rabim!"

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  2-Nov-99: Shelishi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 62b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

--- DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
> Community-imposed constraints on material consumption are
> ultimately 
> socialistic, perhaps. But "socialism," thus understood, imitates
> many deeply 
> Jewish ideas on how society should order itself. Rabbinic Judaism
> is a 
> complex collection of quasi-socialistic rules restricting
> individualistic 
> conduct. 

I recommend the book "In the Marketplace" (I think that's the title)
by Tamari discussing this issue.  He concludes that Judaism is not
socialistic but altruistic and G-d centered.  In his opinion,
socialism (and its extreme form, communism) runs contrary to human
nature.  His detailed drash of Pirkei Avot 5:13 ("sheli sheli . . .")
is excellent.

Kol tuv,
Moshe


=====

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In v4n85, Chana Luntz <Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk> writes:
: Shoftim is the tanachi term for dayanim, which tends to be the term used
: in the mishna/gemorra.

Thanks for the clarification.

: >No, it might be saying that being a shofetes who transmits Pi haDibur is
: >permissable because it is different in kind than being a dayenes who paskens
: >halachah al pi s'varah.

: If you distinguish between a shofet who transmits al pi hadibur and a
: dayan who transmits al pi s'vrah, you are going to have to produce some
: interesting explanations of this particular pasuk (in a way somewhat in
: contradiction of the mesora).  

I wasn't trying to define shofeit and dayan, but rather paraphrase Tosafos who
seem to say that D'vorah was unique because she wasn't ruling on the strength
of her own words, but because of pi hadibbur. I wasn't sure if a dayan could
work al pi hadibbur, since that would seem to violate "lo bashamayim hi".

It seems that authority can come because of being a navi and yet still lend
authority to things said not qua navi.

Or perhaps it was a hora'as sha'ah.

Either way, the viability of using D'vorah as a precident for permitting
dayanot is questionable, and assumed to be false by Tosafos.

In the same issue she asks if I'd add "let the women stay home" and not go to
shul on Shabbos to my "campaign". This is, I believe, the same mistake Chana
made earlier when she thought I was oversimplifying things to a false
dichotomy. I tried to make my point in less absolutist terms than Chana took
me to mean.

No, I would say that a woman ought not to attend shul when it conflicts with
building a Jewish home. The center point of her Avodah should be building
"penimah", but it needn't be the totality of it. The same can not be said
of a man, who'd be required to attend minyan. Man has an obligation to the
"eidah", be it as part of the minyan, as dayan, as kohein, etc...

The fact that the man already has to balance penimah and eidah may be why
the kesuvah demands that he assume responsiblity for entering the eidah and
supporting the family, while she may choose whether or not she wants to do so.
We can't obligate the one person who can commit herself to building *Beis*
Ya'akov (which is what the Torah calls the community of women in particular)
to obligations outside that bayis.

Making women's prayer groups, or ordaining poskot, would only serve to play
down the notion of penimah -- in deference to the values of Yefes (the West)
over Sheim. Both are important -- yaft Elokim liYefes -- but the first priority
is the Ohalei Sheim.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  2-Nov-99: Shelishi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 62b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:45:31 -0600
> From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> Subject: Re:  Charedi University
> 
> What happened to Empire State College, and, before that Rockland Community
> College? Are they not in the business anymore?
> 

My son is in a very small new Yeshiva in Monsey and they work through 
Thomas Edison and Ramapo Colleges in NJ.  (RCC is just a few blocks away, 
but they don't work with them.)

Number 099
>
>
>Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:17:04 -0800 (PST)
>From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: Lubavitch/secular education
>
>- --- Claude Schochet <claude@math.wayne.edu> wrote:
> > The attitude of Lub. towards secular education is
> > much more complex and
> > less monolithic than what has been suggested here by
> > some corresondents.
> > Some specific points:
> >
> > 1. On an individual basis, the Rebbe when he was
> > alive did sometimes
> > advise people to go to college. His advice was
> > one-to-one, fitting advice
> > to an individual, recognizing their personal
> > situations.
>
>
>I'm sorry. I don't buy it. The early establishment in
>Detroit of an ELEMENTARY school sans even a modicum of
>secular studies speaks volumes about the true attitude
>of Lubavitch toward secular studies. This was at the
>Rebbe's directive.
>
>A very close friend of mine, who married into
>Lubavitch was very pained that all of her children

Since when do frum yidden base characterizations of an entire group on "a 
very close friend of mine"?


>would not be receiving a standard (or even substandard
>elementary school education.  She did the best she
>could with home schooling, but her kids have
>definately been short changed. Many have become
>shiluchim but for those who have not, the jobs have
>not been all that forthcoming. Oh, She did have one
>exception.  One of her sons married the daughter of a
>wealthy pharmacist, who, I believe, owned many drug
>stores.  The young man asked the Rebbe if he could go
>to college to study Pharmacy and got permission.  He
>did not have any formal secular education at all but
>as I said his mother home schooled him and, he is very
>bright and probably was able to get a GED.
>
>The point is What does Lubavitch consider the Ideal? I
>believe they would say No Secular education at all,
>ever.
>
>How many FFB Lubavitchers have become MDs.

Lots -- you are going to find much fewer Lubavitcher college professors but 
outside of eretz Isroel frumkeit and academe don't mix too neatly.

I'll bet
>you not one.  The only MDs in Lubavitch are either
>Baale Teshuva or, if FFB, those who became
>Lubavitchers at the point of no return in there
>Medical training.
>
> > There
> > are very very few Lubavitchers who are in kollel
> > after marriage (perhaps
> > less than a hundred world-wide).  The shluchim are
> > the opposite of the
> > stereotype isolated/insulated kollelnik (you would
> > be too if you were
> > suddenly sent, say, to Fargo ND).
>
>Perhaps this explains why there are no Gedolim in
>Lubavitch today and why the Rebbe has no successors.
>
There are many gedolim and upcoming gedolim in Chabad today -- Rabbi Zalman 
Posner is still around, Rabbi Nissen Mangel, Rabbi Manis Friedman, Rabbi 
Shlomo Majeski, the 3 members of the Crown Heights Beis Din [regardless of 
what one might think personally about Chabad politics), the list could go 
on.  The reason why the Rebbe has no successor is far more complex than just 
the issue of whether capable candidates exist.

The reason Chabad isn't into producing long-term kollelniks is b/c unless 
someone is of the caliber where they will teach at RCA, Tiferes Bachurim, 
Hadar HaTorah, Beis Chana or Beis Rivka there are better uses for them 
manpowerwise -- like yidden who never saw a lulav/esrog or tefillin in their 
lives or observed a shabbos in their life.

> > Finally, may I suggest that the tone of some of the
> > discussion re these
> > matters has been such that the darchei noam police
> > have been paying
> > attention...
>
>I appoplogize if I seem a little harsh.  This a
>subject that always gets me heated up.  If I offended
>anyone I sincerely apologize.  Please understand that
>my zeal is meant only to be hisoreir those who can
>effect change and to be mesakain what I perceive to be
>a harmful situation.
>
>Please note, if you've read my posts on other
>subjects: you will clearly see that I am an equal
>opportunity basher. I don't only pick on Lubavitch.
>
>HM
>

In reality, secular education is more important for the credential than the 
actual skills they teach per se.  Sure secular studies is denigrated in many 
yeshivos but a person has their entire life to catch up on these, very few 
have their entire life to immerse themselves in torah.


>
>=====
>

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Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com> wrote:
> TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:
> > Most Frum Jews couldn't conceive of what its like
> > knowing the words to Christmas Carols better than Shma. Welcome to
> > the ugly world.
>
> Is there anyone raised in the US who doesn't know the
> words to Jingle Bells, no matter how right wing a
> Yeshiva he went to? 
> What does that prove?  I couldn't care less if public
> schools have Christmas trees anymore than I care if
> there is a national Christmas tree on the White house
> lawn.

Do your children go to  public schools, and if not would that change
your opinion?  What about the cast majority of non-religous Jews who do
go to public school?  Do we have an obligation to protect them?

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
<daniel@cfd.ame.arizona.edu>
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ

From: Joelirich@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bekiyut -- Who needs it?

<<I seem to recall Sherlock Holmes saying that he did not need to know
the 
distance from the earth to the sun, only where to look it up if he needed
it.>>

	This works well if you assume that the Bar-Ilan CD can take the place of
learning.  RYGB's hanacha rishona was,  correctly,  that it cannot.

Gershon

From: TROMBAEDU@aol.com
Subject: Re: kidra chaysa

<<Actually, if you saw me, you would realize you do know me. >>

	I often wonder if the person standing next to me in shul or at mincha at
work or wherever,  is a person with whom I am in the midst of a most
interesting conversation on the list (or maybe the person who just blew
me away,  figuratively speaking,  on the list).  

	Maybe everyone whose bios go onto the Avodah website, per RSW, will
supply a passport type picture also?   OTOH passport pictures don't allow
you to wear a hat.....

Gershon

From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject: Denigration of Bekiyus?!	

<<Hmm...

Seems like we have a growth industry in denigrating bekiyus here.

Reminds me of R' Yisroel Salanter's comment upon hearing a shiur from R'
Chaim Brisker: "HKB"H is preparing a gadol for the next generation".

V'ha'mayvin yavin.>>

	Lo meivin.  Please elaborate.

Gershon

From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject: Re:  Charedi University

<<What happened to Empire State College, and, before that Rockland
Community College? Are they not in the business anymore?>>

	I don't know but my daughter is nearing completion of her BA from Thomas
Edison State University.  Discussions of this type of program have
mentioned Empire State,  but I am not familiar with RCC.

Gershon

From: "Clark, Eli" <clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM>
Subject: Bekiyut -- Who needs it?

<<Moving away from the politicized question of secular studies and the
education of iluyim, I note that both Carl and Gil focus on the
importance of bekiyut.>>
<<it seems to me that he (does anyone mind my using the masculine form
here?)>>

	I thought the yoatzot thread was over.

<< need not know these be-'al peh and, more importantly, what he
does need to know is how to apply, interpret or reconcile these varied
opinions.
In short, I think that too many in the olam ha-Torah put too much
emphasis on bekiyut for its' own sake.  Put more pithily, we do not need
walking databases.>>

	Granted.  But,  on the other hand, your request for definition of the
optimum level of bekius vs. iyun,  granting that nobody but an ilui can
do it all,  is important.  

	Is it really appropriate for a boy who is two years out of Elu Metzios
to be learning yeshivishe Torah such as Rav Chaim Briskers and Rav Shimon
Shkop's?  Isn't it important at that stage for them to know that Gemoros
in Shas extend beyond Daf yud?  Walk before you run! (or run before you
walk slowly??<g>)

	(My personal opinion is that many rebbeim feel that if they give a blatt
shiur with Rishonim and not a heavy yeshivishe shiur clali (we're talking
high school and early BM now) then they're a failure in their personal
learning)  

	(Apocryphal story heard many years ago:  A litvishe yeshiva bochur went
into the Gerer Rebbe to speak to him in learning.  When he left,  some 
chasidim asked the Rebbe's opinion.  The Rebbe said .......[original
Yiddish eschewed for those not familiar]......... I don't know-I speak to
him Rashba and Ritva and he tells me Shkop and Tropp.)

<<If my analysis is valid, I think it has wide ranging implications, both
curricular and otherwise, for the bahur and the ba'al ha-bayyit
(especially the one caught in the daf yomi craze)>>

	The Daf Yomi craze,  as you put it,  has been either the cause or the
vehicle, it doesn't matter which,  for a tremendous increase in limud
haTorah and kevius itim laTorah across the spectrum of Orthodoxy.  I
daresay the increase has been more pronounced in the MO world.  I would
not be so critical,  given those facts,  particularly because many of the
newly committed were "turned off" to learning in their earlier years.  A
shiur be'iyun will not get them into the Bais Midrash with anywhere near
the draw that DY has.

	What has been happening on a level secondary to this increase in DY,  is
an overall increase in learning.  My take is that once you get that
person into the Bais Midrash,  be it for the shelo lishma of boasting
about learning Daf Yomi,  he will be back,  both for other shiurim and
for greater depth in Daf Yomi itself.

Gershon

*********************


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