Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 099

Tuesday, November 2 1999

• limudei chol - Rambam
• Re:
• Re: gedolei Torah or Torah based society
• RE: Tefillin dates
• Kareis
• Re[2]: gedolei Torah or Torah based society
• Re: Orthodox Attitudes to Food
• Health of yeshiva students
• Re: Tephillin Dates
• Re: Poverty and secular studies
• Re: Tefillin dates
• Conspicuous consumption, Luxury, Tznius, Etc. (was What Else
• Extremes
• Re: Lubavitch/secular education
• Men's Roles
• Re: Conspicuous consumption, Luxury, Tznius, Etc. (was What Else
• Re: Friendly fundamentalists
• Re: Re: Catch up learning

Doesn't the Raavad specifically say in his hakdod that he felt worthy to argue 
with the Rambam only because the Rambam had dabbled in philosophy?  IOW, did 
the Raavad heimslef feel that the Rambam would have been THE indisputable last 
word except for his learning secular subjects?

(FWIW I am merely giving apologetics for Rav Shach's alleged statement...)

Rich Wolpoe 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Yosef Blau>> How did Rav Shach write Torah on the Rambam who clearly read 
Aristotle, Plato and Arabic Philosophers?  Is it the knowledge or the 
environment that causes the taint?<<

One issue I didn't see raised was that of ayin hara.

It was explained to me here on Avodah that "ayin hara" is a product of
causing kin'ah in others. Such kin'ah is the meaning of ayin hara as it
appears in Pirkei Avos, so the explanation "shtims".

In which case, one should avoid flaunting wealth because of the irritation
caused in those less fortunate. If one of them deserves not to have such
irritation perhaps the wealth is in danger.

It also shows that while the have nots should be working on getting rid of
their sour grapes feeling (which runs counter to vi'ahavta lirei'acha), the
haves are still chayav not to instigate it.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  2-Nov-99: Shelishi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 62b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

     Rich Wolpoe wrote:
     
     >>Leimo ketanoi, the "chareidim" hold like RSBY, nasseh al yedei 
     acheirim?>>
     
     Harbeh asu keRSBY velo alsa biydeihem.  See the Gra that this derech 
     is only valid for a minority.  It doesn't work for most people.

 From: j e rosenbaum <jerosenb@hcs.harvard.edu>
> Another thought is that this ultimately comes down to a question of
> intent:  those who really care about the mitzvot are extremely careful
> to fulfill them, and those who do not truly care are careless 
> all around.  
> The few datapoints I have (most are from expressed attitudes, rather
> than action) are from people who are also careless in their personal 
> observance (e.g., saying brachot).  

Doesn't a "tefillin date" imply that the person, despite his laxity in
sexual areas, is rather makpid in other mitzvot (i.e., thinking in advance
to make sure that he is able to put on tefillin)?  In other words, people
can bifurcate two areas of their lives.

Certainly we find people are makpid in bein adam lamakom but not in bein
adam lachaveiro (e.g., cheating in business).

Also, what did you mean by saying 
<<I don't personally know of any
instances, but my guess is that someone who would do this would avoid the 
kareit, and probably not with tevila>>

If not through tevila, how?

Kol tuv,
Moshe

     Micha Berger wrote:
     
     >>According to the Rambam, this yedi'ah has nitzchiyus because it 
     shares elements of the "Tzurah" of HKBH, who is nitzchi. People who 
     altogether lack such yedi'ah are therefore doomed to kareis, ceasing 
     to exist after misah.>>
     
     
     The Rambam writes this in Hilchos Teshuvah ch. 8.  The Ramban in 
     Sha'ar Hagmul points out contradictions within the Mishneh Torah and 
     suggests that according to the Rambam a neshamah receiving kareis is 
     punished after death and then after the punishment ceases to exist.  
     R. Yosef Kaffih in his footnotes to Hilchos Teshuvah argues that there 
     is no basis to the understanding that the Rambam holds that any 
     neshamah is destroyed after death.  Argued to R. Kaffih, the Rambam 
     holds that the neshamah is eternally punished and is "cut off" from 
     the hana'ah of ziv hashechinah.

>>Rich Wolpoe wrote:
     
     >>Leimo ketanoi, the "chareidim" hold like RSBY, nasseh al yedei 
     acheirim?>>
     
    >> Harbeh asu keRSBY velo alsa biydeihem.  See the Gra that this derech 
     is only valid for a minority.  It doesn't work for most people.<<

Ein hochi nami!


WADR I don't need the Gra, it's obvious; obvious that only great tzadikim could 
afford to rely upon this kind of merit.

The Chareidim are highly idealistic.  Are they wrong?  History will tell us for 
sure...  Then remeber that Zionism was considered impractially idealistic at 
certain stages, too.

Meanwhile, I would support a "Torah Im Derech Eretz" philosophy, one that 
squarely made individuals responsible for their own destinies without being 
"mitztareih labrios!"

Rich Wolpoe

> I read that R. Nachman of Breslov used the taavo of food to channel his
libido;
> and then overcame that taavo too> (Otherwise - according to the story - we
would
> not be zoche to see the Avos in Gan Eden)

It might also be of interest to point out that Rebbe Nachman was extremely
ascetic in his youth- (swallowing food without chewing in order not to enjoy
the flavour etc). Later in life he said that if only he had understood the
power and goodness of hisbodedus he would not have afflicted his body.

A glance at a recent journal article (Lerman Y et al, "Occupations at Increased Risk of Hepatitis A: A 2-Year Nationwide Historical Prospective Study", Am J Epidemiology 1999;150:312-20) turned up the surprising information that the rate of hepatitis A is higher among yeshiva students than any other occupational category in Israel, including food handlers, 
day care workers, and health-care technicians, and about 15 times higher than that in the population at large. 

The authors characterize the excess as "expected" ("Yeshivas are characterized by crowding, large communal dining rooms and bathrooms, and toilets that are used by many students. Even students who are aware of being infected often do not seek
medical care. In addition, most of them were very young, and many of them were parents
of very young children -- known risk factors of hepatitis A."). However, one would hope that roshei yeshiva and communal leaders would understand the importance of encouraging disease prevention. Sure, hep A is "minor" compared with the other hepatitides, but it's (at least) sofek pikuekh nefesh. 

A vaccine for hep A has recently been approved and licensed, and I wonder whether the yeshivas will play any part in its distribution.  A search of the literature does not yield much about health care in Israeli yeshivas. Not having been to one, can I ask interested members of the list (they can mail me off-list if this bores the pants off the rest of you) what the situation is in yeshivas with regard to preventive health care?  

Sholem Berger

In message , harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com> writes
>- --- Chana/Heather Luntz
><Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> Just a reality check here, does anybody know (even
>> anonomously) that
>> tephillin dates really exist.  
> 
>Seriously, I believe it is just an expression to
>describe a type of sociological phenomenon (as some on
>the list have pointed out)  that exists in certain
>orthodox environments, and existed as far back as when
>I was in college (the sixties).
>

But does it really, that is my question. Is it really going on, or are
we just assuming that it must be going on, giving the secular
environment.

Somebody wrote to me privately and said that somebody he knew admitted
to this course of action when that person was becoming frum.  OK, that I
can accept. But I don't think that is the typical person that people are
imagining when they use the term.


>HM
>

Regards

Chana

-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

In message , Carl and Adina Sherer <sherer@actcom.co.il> writes
>I would only add that while a college degree is required for nearly 
>all types of parnassa in the US, that is not true in EY (and I 
>understand that it is not true in England either). We don't have 
>many sanitation engineers with BA's in Philosophy here :-) 

Actually, that is increasingly no longer true in England (orAustralia).
One of the major socialogical changes in the last 10-15 years (ie I
remember it!) is the increase in qualifications of the average person in
the street.

When I started high school in Australia (ie aged 11-12), one would not
have expected more than about 40% of those who started with me to
complete high school.  In fact about 50 percent did, but the trend has
accelerated since then, and I believe we are now talking about 90% plus
who finish high school, and really large numbers of those are then
seeking University places.  A similar phenomenon has occurred in England
(although I don't have a feel for the figures).

What used to happen in Australia is that a lot of boys used to drop out
at 16 to take apprenticeships etc, and a lot of girls would get a
temporary job before getting married.

But the recessions of the early 1980s and 1990s wiped out a lot of
apprenticeship positions, and those lucky few who got them had to
demonstrate their ability over and above their peers.  Thus people who
finished high school were getting them, then people who had a college
degree of some discription, pushing those without any form of
qualification onto the job scrapheap (remember, unemployment hit 10% or
so during these periods, and something like 30%+ among the young).

Meanwhile, male unemployment, not to mention family breakdown, pushed
many women who had always assumed that they would be financially
supported out to take whatever work there was (numbers going back to
finish high school and university in the process). And their daughters,
looking at what was happening, no longer could count on marriage as
ensuring financial stability.

The numbers going into higher education went up, I don't know, ten times
I would guess (my own university numbers swelled in a relatively short
space of time from in the vicinity of 10,000 to in the vicinity of
30.000 and I am sure it has multiplied even more since I left), the
government scrambled to convert whatever it could into new Universities,
which opened left, right and centre.  Part of this was government self
interest.  Australia traditionally paid more in unemployment benefits
than in student benefits, and paid unemployment benefits earlier,
without parental means testing. Not to mention that, if a young person
is studying, they do not "count" as unemployed, and while increases in
student numbers were seen as positive, as investing in the future of the
country, unemployment numbers were just seen as a waste, and the
government throwing its youth onto the scrapheap.

But when there were still not enough jobs at the end of all that study,
what happens?  Well, an employer still has to decide between X, Y and
who knows how many others.  And if X has a degree, and Y doesn't, the
choice is obvious and easy to justify (while the converse is true, if
you take Y, X might sue claiming discrimination on the grounds that they
were clearly more qualified).  This is true even the job in question is
sweeping the floors. 

Of course, it is not all grade inflation.  the reality is that the jobs
have disappeared from the unskilled sector, and increasingly do require
more advanced skills such as ability to work a computer and to process,
evalute and sort complicated information (although not ones that
necessarily require a graduate degree).  And while a person who does not
have such a degree may well be perfectly capable, it is certainly easier
to use the degree as the sorting mechanism to ensure that you have
somebody appropriate.  When jobs are scarce, you can have hundreds or
thousands of applications for a job. One cuts one's workload by not even
bothering to look at people without higher qualifications (just as my
law firm, which gets thousands of applications from people with law
degrees or degrees plus law conversion courses won't look at anybody who
doesn't have a minimum 2:1 - ie an upper second degree).

But it then becomes self perpetuating - ie the university degree becomes
the prerequisite for a job, and anybody who doesn't have it is regarded
as some form of social failure, not having jumped through the necessary
hoops, and hence as unemployable, even once jobs become less scarce.

So, while many of the older bank managers, heading towards retirement
now, started with the bank at 16 and never finished high school.  Today,
no bank in either Australia or England will look at you for anything
above a cashier position without a university degree (and even the
former, you increasingly need it).

There are still a very limited number of environments where that is not
the case.  The diamond industry is one of them.  However, in the diamond
industry you need an even rarer commodity, contacts.  If you don't have
daddy or an uncle or some such in the business, it is extremely
difficult to get your foot in the door - To be honest, it is easier to
go to university!

>- -- Carl
regards

Chana
-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

 
> Doesn't a "tefillin date" imply that the person, despite his laxity in
> sexual areas, is rather makpid in other mitzvot (i.e., thinking in advance
> to make sure that he is able to put on tefillin)?  In other words, people
> can bifurcate two areas of their lives.
> Certainly we find people are makpid in bein adam lamakom but not in bein
> adam lachaveiro (e.g., cheating in business).
 
There are lots of divisions --- the kinds of divisions I'm thinking
about are between observance people know about and that they don't.

As I said, I don't know anyone who has had a tefillin date --- I'm only
thinking of those who have said they would have sexual activity before
marriage and those who actually have.  (And it's really only a few people.)  
The instances of the latter I know about are in communities where no one 
could spend the night anywhere other than at home, so tefillin dates were 
out of the question.  

> Also, what did you mean by saying 
> <<I don't personally know of any
> instances, but my guess is that someone who would do this would avoid the 
> kareit, and probably not with tevila>>
> If not through tevila, how?

No bi'ah.  (Even in the secular world, there are many who believe that 
pre-marital sex is wrong and succeed in having years-long relationships
without ever crossing that particular line.)

Sorry for the circumlocution.  

Janet

In V4#98, Moshe wrote:

<<I don't understand why you view asceticism as a negative attribute. I don't
(in fact, I went through an ascetic stage when I was 19 or
so).  Asceticism is an extremely valid derech towards Avodat Hashem. Thus,
there is no comparison to be made with a "charge" of hedonism.>>

You misunderstand me. I have nothing against asceticism or ascetics, but
a positive label can be as dismissive as a negative label. I have heard the
views of certain people brushed-off because they are labeled as tzadikim,
the assumption being that since they are tzadikim their ideas can't possibly
be valid for ordinary people. Its not an issue of positive vs. negative, but of
labeling vs. giving an idea a fair hearing on its own merits without regard to
who said it.

<<For that matter, I too wrote attacking certain luxurious practices
....  So you cannot accuse me of raising the asceticism
issue in order to avoid discussion of the core issue of the fixation
on luxury in the US.>>

Sorry, I didn't mean to be accusatory, but I do feel there's some issue-
skirting going on. You're still addressing the possible ascetic tendencies
of the sources instead of  what they say and what conclusions can be
drawn from them. I'd much rather be discussing the premises stated in
my last post regarding the proper disposition of wealth and the exercise
of restraint in material matters, and what they require of us in practical
terms.

<<However, as I said in a previous post: I remember that Rabbi Yaakov
Neuberger, in his Choson class, suggested that the ascetic
recommendations of the Shulchan Arukh regarding lessening the
pleasure one has during marital relations are not appropriate in
today's times.  So, an ascetic tendency can influence halakhic
statements.>>

With all due respect to Rabbi Neuberger, the suggestion you quote
him on is debatable. In addition, I wonder whether his statement, which
relates specifically to sexual pleasure, was ever meant to be to be
expanded in this manner into a principle of general application.

<<You stated in the name of the Shal"ah that the pursuit of pleasure
<. . . constitute a hesech hada'as in the anticipation of the g'ula
(Shal"a, end of M'seches Suka).> It is my gut feeling (which I would
appreciate someone bearing out) that this statement might derive from
an ascetic mentality.  "Hesech hada'as in the anticipation of the g'ula"
which would seem to me to preclude any pleasure which is very enjoyable.>>

The Shal"a doesn't say that any pleasurable experience is a hesech
hada'as in the anticipation of the g'ula, but that material over-indulgence
(specifically building mansion-like houses in galus) is a hesech hada'as in
the anticipation of the g'ula. If you were to read the statement of the Shal"a
in context I think you would agree that, even if the author had ascetic
tendencies,
this particular statement isn't derived from them.

<<As I pointed out in a previous post, our generation has not embraced
ascetism.  Therefore statements made from an ascetic perspective will
resonate less with members of our generation.  To the extent that a
known non-ascetic rishon/achron makes a pleasure-curbing statement,
that statement will have greater impact than if made by a known
ascetic.>>

This is only the case if we are judging ideas by their pedigrees
rather than by their inherent merits. A true proposition is no less
or more true and worthy of our acceptance if stated by Rambam
than if stated by R' Y'huda Hachasid.

Kol tuv,
David

micha wrote in v4#91:

<<Another example of how extemes tend to balance: nevu'ah and avodah zarah both
ended in the same generation. The last of the nevi'im are described in the
gemara as the ones who killed the yeitzer hara for avodah zarah. R' Aryeh
Kaplan writes that their demise is causally connected -- by killing the
challenge of one, you kill the ability to reach the other.>>

Rav Dessler also develops this theme very beautifully in Michtav MiEliyahu 3:277
based on ideas from R' Tzadok HaKohen.

Kol tuv,
David 

--- Claude Schochet <claude@math.wayne.edu> wrote:
> The attitude of Lub. towards secular education is
> much more complex and 
> less monolithic than what has been suggested here by
> some corresondents. 
> Some specific points:
> 
> 1. On an individual basis, the Rebbe when he was
> alive did sometimes 
> advise people to go to college. His advice was
> one-to-one, fitting advice 
> to an individual, recognizing their personal
> situations. 


I'm sorry. I don't buy it. The early establishment in
Detroit of an ELEMENTARY school sans even a modicum of
secular studies speaks volumes about the true attitude
of Lubavitch toward secular studies. This was at the
Rebbe's directive.  

A very close friend of mine, who married into
Lubavitch was very pained that all of her children
would not be receiving a standard (or even substandard
elementary school education.  She did the best she
could with home schooling, but her kids have
definately been short changed. Many have become
shiluchim but for those who have not, the jobs have
not been all that forthcoming. Oh, She did have one
exception.  One of her sons married the daughter of a
wealthy pharmacist, who, I believe, owned many drug
stores.  The young man asked the Rebbe if he could go
to college to study Pharmacy and got permission.  He
did not have any formal secular education at all but
as I said his mother home schooled him and, he is very
bright and probably was able to get a GED. 

The point is What does Lubavitch consider the Ideal? I
believe they would say No Secular education at all,
ever.

How many FFB Lubavitchers have become MDs.  I'll bet
you not one.  The only MDs in Lubavitch are either
Baale Teshuva or, if FFB, those who became
Lubavitchers at the point of no return in there
Medical training.



> There 
> are very very few Lubavitchers who are in kollel
> after marriage (perhaps 
> less than a hundred world-wide).  The shluchim are
> the opposite of the 
> stereotype isolated/insulated kollelnik (you would
> be too if you were 
> suddenly sent, say, to Fargo ND).

Perhaps this explains why there are no Gedolim in
Lubavitch today and why the Rebbe has no successors. 

> Finally, may I suggest that the tone of some of the
> discussion re these 
> matters has been such that the darchei noam police
> have been paying 
> attention... 

I appoplogize if I seem a little harsh.  This a
subject that always gets me heated up.  If I offended
anyone I sincerely apologize.  Please understand that
my zeal is meant only to be hisoreir those who can
effect change and to be mesakain what I perceive to be
a harmful situation.  

Please note, if you've read my posts on other
subjects: you will clearly see that I am an equal
opportunity basher. I don't only pick on Lubavitch.

HM


=====

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Hello,

I haven't been reading for a while, but my wife and I have been debating an 
interesting question which I thought might provide food for interesting 
Avodah discussion.

The term "women's roles" is popular to the point of cliche. After all of the 
explanations are worked out, it seems that the Torah has some sort of 
function which women are meant to serve.

The question: what about men? Is there some role which we can define as a 
"man's role?" This goes beyond the details (Aliyot, Yotzei laTzava); is there 
some role which men from which men are not permitted to diverge, just as 
women are not supposed to leave their role?

One possible thought - "beZeias Apecha Tochal Lechem," and working for a 
living. This is problematic, though, for many obvious reasons - men who don't 
need to work, for example.

Thoughts?
Mordechai Torczyner
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf
Congregation Ohave Shalom, Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave

--- david.nadoff@bfkpn.com wrote:
> The Shal"a doesn't say that any pleasurable experience is a hesech
> hada'as in the anticipation of the g'ula, but that material
> over-indulgence
> (specifically building mansion-like houses in galus) is a hesech
> hada'as in
> the anticipation of the g'ula. If you were to read the statement of
> the Shal"a
> in context I think you would agree that, even if the author had
> ascetic
> tendencies,
> this particular statement isn't derived from them.

There are two ways to understand the Shal"a (as you quote him; I
don't have the Shal"a): (1) material over-indulgence is hesech
hada'at; (2) building mansion-like houses (a point not present in
your original posting) in galut is hesech hada'at.  

Certainly #2 is not related to the issue of asceticism, since it can
simply mean that if a person truly had emunah that ol galut could be
lifted at any time, he wouldn't build a mansion in chu"l (personally,
I rent :-)  ).

However #1 would seem related to an ascetic perspective.  If I go to
the amusement park for the day, am I not having hesech hada'at
(assuming there are no long lines!)?  What about watching a two hour
movie?  How about a double feature?  Hesech ha'daat can apply not
only to material *overindulgence*, but to any pleasure which is
all-encompassing while it is experienced.  It is true that there is
no complete contradiction between an issur of hesech hada'at and
enjoying pleasure (one may enjoy a limited amount of pleasure which
is not all-encompassing and therefore leaves one to ruminate a little
about the galut).  But I would think that one who is concerned about
not being me'seiach da'at from galut is more likely to be an ascetic
personality, certainly in today's context.

> This is only the case if we are judging ideas by their pedigrees
> rather than by their inherent merits. A true proposition is no less
> or more true and worthy of our acceptance if stated by Rambam
> than if stated by R' Y'huda Hachasid.

I have no problem in assessing hesech hada'at on its merits.  As I
understand it in the paragraph I just wrote, it doesn't speak to me.

I would assume that you consider the concept to have greater strength
because it was formulated by the Shal"a.  To that extent, it would
make sense to investigate his general orientation towards asceticism.
 BTW, after reading Dr. Chaim Soloveitchik's article regarding R'
Yehuda Hachasid, I tend to be very cautious before accepting any
recommendation/halacha from R' Yehuda Hachasid (since Dr. S wrote
that RYH had certain philosophical motivations which permeated his
entire work and are not hashkafically accepted today).

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

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--- TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:


> Most Frum Jews couldn't conceive of what its like
> knowing the words to 
> Christmas Carols better than Shma. Welcome to the
> ugly world.

Is there anyone raised in the US who doesn't know the
words to Jingle Bells, no matter how right wing a
Yeshiva he went to? 
What does that prove?  I couldn't care less if public
schools have Christmas trees anymore than I care if
there is a national Christmas tree on the White house
lawn.

HM


=====

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--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:

> He ain't totally American no more...

That's not my fault.  but he's more American than you
think.

> 
> BTW, where was that American college degree from
> :-)...?
> 
Some Famous University in the Midwest
North...something.  I Forget.

> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago,
> IL 60659
> http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 2:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Catch up learning
> 
> 
> > I think my totally American kid has a pretty good
> shot
> > at it.  And he's got an American HS diploma as
> well as
> > an American college degree.
> > 
> 
> 
> 


=====

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********************


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