Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 095

Tuesday, November 2 1999

• Re: Limudei Chol
• Re: Catch up learning
• Re: Catch up learning
• Re: Tephillin Dates
• Re: Brich shmey, limudei chol
• Re:Beryl Wien's critique
• Rav Shach
• RE: Poverty and secular studies
• Re: luxuries
• Re: Tephillin Dates
• Re:Brich Sh'mei
• Brich Sh'mei - Some Machshovo
• tzedaka examples
• Charedi University
• Reshus harabim
• limudei chol
• Yom Hatzmaut (was Rav Shach)
• Paroh identity
• beged ivri
• Re: Extremes
• Re: Tephillin Dates
• Re: Re: Catch up learning

--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:

> Someone wrote
> here that HS is 80% wate and 20% important, but no
> one knows at the time
> what is and what is not important. Don't you think,
> however, that some
> people who know what interests them and what does
> not, might be better off
> learning?

I'm doubt that every high school student is qualified
to know whether his present interests will be enough
for him/her to serve him/her in life. The 80/20 theory
sounds about right but so does the rest of the theory
that says: no one knows at the time what is and what
is not important. In my own case, I hated history in
high school and in college, but now I love history.  I
wish I would have been more serious about it then.
Also, within the 80/20 theory it is likely that pieces
of information (a Euclidean geometric theorem here, or
an algebraic equation there) and knowledge that one
attains throughout an entire curriculum, whether one
has intersest in it or not, does end up being useful
in life.

HM

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In a message dated 11/2/99 12:58:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
sherer@actcom.co.il writes:

<< 
 I should clarify (as RYGB alludes to in his post) that while the 
 American bochur can catch up to the average serious Israeli 
 bochur, he is unlikely to catch up to the true iluyim here (because 
 of the level of bekius).
 
 -- Carl
  >>
Which assumes that lmudei chol have no value in lmudei kodesh, a position 
which is not universally held. Does a knowledge of history, sociology or of 
how markets work have any value for a talmid chacham? We've been over this 
before but I thought it worth noting.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

On 2 Nov 99, at 5:39, Joelirich@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/2/99 12:58:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
> sherer@actcom.co.il writes:
> 
> << 
>  I should clarify (as RYGB alludes to in his post) that while the 
>  American bochur can catch up to the average serious Israeli 
>  bochur, he is unlikely to catch up to the true iluyim here (because 
>  of the level of bekius).
>  
>  -- Carl
>   >>
> Which assumes that lmudei chol have no value in lmudei kodesh, a position 
> which is not universally held. Does a knowledge of history, sociology or of 
> how markets work have any value for a talmid chacham? We've been over this 
> before but I thought it worth noting.

I don't see how the above says that it has no value. In fact, I wrote 
in a different post this morning that I sent my son to a school that 
has limudei chol because I think that knowledge (or at least some 
of it) will have value to him in his learning. 

What I was trying to point out in the snippet you posted is that an 
Israeli who is serious about learning at a young (and I mean really 
young) age can gain a level of bekius that (because of girsa 
d'yankusa) cannot really be replicated no matter how much one 
may try. I am not assuming that a "true iluy" has no secular 
studies, although obviously in Israel today many of them do not.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

--- Chana/Heather Luntz
<Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Just a reality check here, does anybody know (even
> anonomously) that
> tephillin dates really exist.  
 

I doubt it. The expression "Teffilin dates" originaly
reffered to the types of fruit that one may eat while
still wearing teffilin... (bad joke!)

Seriously, I believe it is just an expression to
describe a type of sociological phenomenon (as some on
the list have pointed out)  that exists in certain
orthodox environments, and existed as far back as when
I was in college (the sixties).

HM



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On 1 Nov 99, at 22:12, Elazar M Teitz wrote:

> With reference to limudei chol: in the years I learned in Ponevez
> (1953-56), it was official policy of the Ponevezer Rav to reserve 25%
> of the places in the Yeshiva for the graduates of three yeshivot
> tichoniyot: Chorev, in Yerushalayim; Yishuv Hechadash, in Tel Aviv;
> and Midr'shiyat Noam, in Pardes Chana.  At that time, Harav Shach was
> a rosh yeshiva, but was not known to have expressed any opinion
> against their presence.

I think the politics of the 1950's were very different from the politics 
of today. My mother in law's parents z"l lived at the foot of 
Ponevich Yeshiva for many years begining in 1958, and I have 
eyewitness accounts of their being an Israeli flag on the roof on 
Yom HaAtzmaut. 

But that gets back to the isolationism that has developed over the 
last 20-25 years that we were discussing last week....

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

--- Hershel Ginsburg <ginzy@netvision.net.il> wrote:

> 
> In a recent talk in J'lem, Rabbi Beryl Wein compared
> the grinding poverty
> of Frum Jews in Eastern Europe during the 19th
> Century (which he feels
> produced the Jewish socialists, secular zionists,
> reform, and the roots of
> the present day religious-secular schism) and that
> of the present day
> Hareidi community in Israel, and noted that it will
> sooner or later blow up
> as well under the economic pressure.


Does anyone know if his talk made it into print
anywhere? I would love to see more of what this former
esteemed RH, author, alumnus of HTC and brother in law
to R. A.C. Levin (RH of Telshe and Member of the
Moetzes) has to say on the matter.

HM

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--- Elazar M Teitz <remt@juno.com> wrote:

> 
> With reference to limudei chol: in the years I
> learned in Ponevez
> (1953-56), it was official policy of the Ponevezer
> Rav to reserve 25% of
> the places in the Yeshiva for the graduates of three
> yeshivot tichoniyot:
> Chorev, in Yerushalayim; Yishuv Hechadash, in Tel
> Aviv; and Midr'shiyat
> Noam, in Pardes Chana.  At that time, Harav Shach
> was a rosh yeshiva, but
> was not known to have expressed any opinion against
> their presence.

An interesting anecdote about the Ponovzher Rav and R.
Shach.

It is a somewhat well known story that when someone
asked R. Kahaneman whether he said hallel on Yom
HaAtzmaut... he replied that he had Ben Gurions
minhag:  No Hallel... No Tachanun.

The minhag in Ponevevezh was not to say Tachanun on
Yom HaAtzmaut.  Except for R. Shach, who did. (I
believe all by himself).

R. Teitz, can you corroborate this story?

HM



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>  We don't have
> many sanitation engineers with BA's in Philosophy here :-)
>

But we *do* have sanitation engineers who are astrophysicists and brain
surgeons...
(Olim from Russia who can't find work)

:-)

Akiva




===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

--- Steve Katz <katzco@sprintmail.com> wrote:
> harry maryles wrote:
> 
> I must have missed something somewhere. Who proposed
> anything like
> socialist sharing of wealth? Throwing such extremes
> into the discussion
> is not productive. I have not read any post that
> proposed such
> outlandish solution. Seem most disagreement centered
> on spending obscene
> amounts of money to outdo the "Joneses.
> steve


It's a slippery slope, my friend.

HM 


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In a message dated 11/2/99 6:07:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< 
 --- Chana/Heather Luntz
 <Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk> wrote:
 > 
 > Just a reality check here, does anybody know (even
 > anonomously) that
 > tephillin dates really exist.  
  
 
 I doubt it. The expression "Teffilin dates" originaly
 reffered to the types of fruit that one may eat while
 still wearing teffilin... (bad joke!) >>
Just a curiosity check - assuming that one was nichshol in this area, would 
we advise him(or her) not to daven the next morning (or for him not to put on 
tfillin).  I'd suggest that many of us are nichshol in some area (yes even 
with forthought - ie naaseh kheter)....

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

I haven't been following this thread but I saw the following, and I don't
know if this will answer any questions, but it gives a picture of the issue:

From:  Siddur "Od Avinu Chai" Minhag Sephardim -- Livorno
based on the Pesakim of Rabbi Ya'akov Rakach

Brich Shmei: (my trx.  any errors are mine)

"According to the Ar"I Z"L it would appear that saying Brich Shmei is Davka
in Shaharit on Shabbat.  Indeed in Pri Etz Chaim it is written that it is
not forbidden to say it on Yemot HaChol, and the Mahari"tz agrees in Lehem
Min HaShamayim, and so he wrote in the Siddur with Kavanot HaAr"i Z"L, and
also the Ba'eir Heiteiv in the name of the AR"I to say it both on Chol and
on Shabbat, and so they also wrote in Mahatzit HaShekel and in Seder HaYom
and in Eliyah Rabba, and this is the opinion of HaRav Chemed Moshe and HaRav
Netiv Hayim and the Rabbi who wrote the Hagahot in Shalmei Tzibbur and Beit
Menuha and an additional long list of Poskim, as brought by MO"R Rabbi
Yaakov Rakach ZT"L in "Shulchan Lechem HaPanim" and also HaRav "HaShomer
Emet" wrote there that the Minhag of Ir HaKodesh Tzfat T"V, to say it on
Chol on every day that they take out the Torah, and so is written in Petach
HaDvir and in Kaf HaChaim.  And so what rabbis of our time and rabbis of
Bavel wanted LeChadesh that there is no place to say Brich Shmei on Chol
except on a day that there is Mussaf and we say "Keter", BeMehila MeKevodam
their words are not MeHuvarim (little basis/clear) in this, rather as it is
concluded in "Shulchan Lechem HaPanim" that many of Gedolei Yisrael Paskened
to say it also on Yemot HaChol.  And he ended there that in any case, in a
place that Lo Nohagu LeOmro (and he also doens't want LiNhog K'MinHag
Avoteinu HaKedoshim) it is better that he say it Beyno LeVein Atzmo."

(the siddur was published by Rabbi Levi NaHum).

Shoshana Boublil
Israel

In the German Minhog NOT to say Brich Shmei we have perhaps an interesting 
paradox.  It is NOT an objection to the intrinisc tefillo itself, rather it is 
due to a fear of abusing Kabbolo as was done by SZ, v'sayosso.

EG, we were taught at Ner Yisrol that we said Shir Hakovod and Shir hayichud 
Davka on YK because of its extreme beauty.  This is similar to not saying hallel
bechol yom because it would denigrate

nad in this lies our paradox.  The limiting or omission of a given piece of 
litrugy might actually be out of a sense of awe, and not out of a sense of 
denigration!

Or it might be out of sense of avoiding abuse.  Weren't the Asseres hadibros 
part of the daily Tefillos  until nishrabu haminim?  In deed, many still say it 
PRIVATELY every day.  I think the German Kehilos that excluded kabbolistic 
passages out of the liturgy did so in order to avoid its abuse, not out of a 
sense of any disrepsect.  Aderabbo, they probably felt it was SO sublime that it
wsa worhty of only yechidim!  Just as Shir Hakavod is so subline it is ro'uy 
only for YK!

Rich Wolpoe



  

Carl wrote:

> When we lived in the States, I was often invited to chasunas of
> Lakewood boys (we did not live in Lakewood, but we lived in a
> community where there is a Yeshiva from which many of the boys went on
> to Lakewood, and since many of them were our Shabbos guests, we were
> often invited to the chasunas). One of the things that always
> impressed me was how the boys always went around collecting for
> "Lakewood Tattie" during the meals (raising money for boys whose
> families could not afford to make them proper chasunas). I think it
> showed a sense of social responsibility from which many gvirim could
> learn.

It highlights for me the importance of offering examples of how to
accomplish these goals.  I think lots of people would be happy to follow
some practical suggestions.

Carls also said:

> I should clarify (as RYGB alludes to in his post) that while the
> American bochur can catch up to the average serious Israeli bochur, he
> is unlikely to catch up to the true iluyim here (because of the level
> of bekius).

But is ANYONE likely to ever catch up to the true iluyim?

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu

I'm the *volunteered* (tm) executive secretary of the Jewish Bible
Association, an affiliate of the Dept. of Education of the Jewish Agency.
Members of our Association have been appointed as official Faculty
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State College in CT. Charter Oak does all the portfolio evaluation
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for 30 general education credits), they can get their regionally
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Those without AP credit in high school can also avail themselves of
other faculty (e.g. we have a Rav with a PhD in physics who will
coach and tutor the students to pass the CLEP (College Level Examination
Program of the College Boards) exams in college math and physical science;
other faculty, including a former YU English professor will coach and
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Josh

From: "Noah Witty" <nwitty@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Kidra chaysa

<The +ACI-practically perfect+ACI- (that's borrowed from +ACI-Mary
Poppins+ACI-) Gershon
Dubin wrote>:

Ad Kahn.  This discussion has seriously deteriorated and I refuse to take
further part in it.  If anyone (including R' Noah) wishes to discuss with
me the  substantive  issues which he raises,  feel free to write me off
list.   

Gershon

From: Elazar M Teitz <remt@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Brich shmey, limudei chol


<With reference to limudei chol: in the years I learned in Ponevez
(1953-56), it was official policy of the Ponevezer Rav to reserve 25% of
the places in the Yeshiva for the graduates of three yeshivot tichoniyot:
Chorev, in Yerushalayim; Yishuv Hechadash, in Tel Aviv; and Midr'shiyat
Noam, in Pardes Chana.  At that time, Harav Shach was a rosh yeshiva, but
was not known to have expressed any opinion against their presence.>

	I question the equation.  The fact that he did not protest the presence
of bachurim from those yeshivos does not necessarily imply that he
approved of the respective curricula.  As a  matter of fact,  I would be
disappointed to hear (and yes, I know that it happens often)  that he
held the chinuch they had against them in keeping them out of Ponevez. 
Unless he was afraid of their adverse influence on their chaverim??

Gershon

FWIW that is the minhog of my shul (at least in the days we had a daily minyan) 
for Yom hoatmaut and Yom Yerusholayim, no Hallel no Tachanun

By way of analogy these 2 days during Sefiro have about the same status as Lag 
Bo'omer...

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

<snip>
The minhag in Ponevevezh was not to say Tachanun on 
Yom HaAtzmaut.  Except for R. Shach, who did. (I 
believe all by himself).





HM

The discussion regarding the identity of Paroh at or about the time of the
churban reminded me of one of my queries-
Anyone have any idea who was the Paroh at the time of yetziat Mitzrayim? Any
basis to the idea it was Ramses son of Ceti I?

Mrs. G. Atwood

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood
We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Joelirich@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: Anonymity and list demographics


> In a message dated 11/1/99 9:22:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> gatwood@netvision.net.il writes:
>
> <<
>  Akiva would wear Reuven Prager's "Beged Ivri" but the neighbourhood isn't
>  ready for it yet >>
> What is the source for beged ivri ? Did  Avraham Avinu wear different
> clothing styles than his neighbors?

> Kol Tuv,
> Joel Rich

Beged Ivri includes arba kanfot which is really a garment in the full sense
of the word-  A four cornered woven garment providing warmth. It can be used
in place of a sweater or shirt depending on the thickness of the weave.
In many cases the styles and patterns are traditional, using natural fibres,
(wool or  linen-  not both!) and traditional dyes where possible.
As you seem to suggest, apart from the arba kanfot, Avraham probably wore
styles common or similar to many nomads of those times. However, when we
were in Mitzrayim we kept those styles and did not adopt the more scantily
clad dress of the Egyptians on the Nile.  Here "beged ivri" took real and
distinct meaning (though probably similar to the Tuareg)
In some respects Beged Ivri resembles the old style Yerushalmi beged still
worn by many members of Toldos Aharon and visible in photos of Rav Yosef
Chaim Sonnenfeld Zatzal- also similar to that of Yemen and to some of the
Arab population.  Striped bekesher,  brown mantle,  pillbox cap rather than
streimel of course. Long flowing garments appropriate for desert wear,
allowing air flow and minimizing exposure to sun.
(tznius intrinsic)
Not appropriate to NY CEO life, I understand.  Question here- how exactly to
 we follow the ruling not to follow the clothing styles of the goyim?

Mrs. G. Atwood.

>

     Micha Berger wrote:
     
     >>Another example of how extemes tend to balance: nevu'ah and avodah 
     zarah both ended in the same generation. The last of the nevi'im are 
     described in the gemara as the ones who killed the yeitzer hara for 
     avodah zarah. R' Aryeh Kaplan writes that their demise is causally 
     connected -- by killing the challenge of one, you kill the ability to 
     reach the other. Note also the y"h is portrayed there as a firey lion 
     that emerges from the kodesh hakdashim, implying that the y"h exists 
     because of the vast potential available.>>
     
     R. Ya'akov Kaminetsky in his peirush al haTorah (on chartumei 
     Mitzrayim) explains this in the reverse.  Yetzer haras, avodah zaras, 
     kishuf, etc. are there two give us true bechira chofshis.  For that, 
     we need equal levels of tum'ah and taharah.  When the level of taharah 
     declines, such as at the end of nevu'ah, the level of tum'ah also has 
     to decline to keep it zeh le'umas zeh.

--- Joelirich@aol.com wrote:


> Just a curiosity check - assuming that one was
> nichshol in this area (Teffilin dates), would 
> we advise him(or her) not to daven the next morning
> (or for him not to put on 
> tfillin).  I'd suggest that many of us are nichshol
> in some area 

I don't get it.  Just because you do one aveira
doesn't mean you are prevented from doing other
mitzvos.  The only time you should not be doing
mitzvos is when doing them in the context of an Aveira
would constitute a Chilul HaShem, (e.g. wearing a
yamulke while robbing a bank)

HM

=====

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     Carl Sherer wrote:
     
     >>I should clarify (as RYGB alludes to in his post) that while the 
     American bochur can catch up to the average serious Israeli bochur, he 
     is unlikely to catch up to the true iluyim here (because of the level 
     of bekius).>>
     
     Are you saying that the American iluy can't keep up with the Israeli 
     iluy because the American went to high school and college?  Are you 
     willing to say that to R. Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg's face?  What about 
     R. Hershel Schachter?  When I was in YU there were a few iluyim who 
     gained tremendous bekius despite their secular studies.

********************


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