Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 094

Tuesday, November 2 1999

• Re: Brich shmey, limudei chol
• tefillin dates; cholent raids
• re: B'rich Sh'meh
• Chareidi University in Israel
• Re: luxuries
• Mincha Gedola?
• Catch up learning
• survey
• Oh no....
• Re: Poverty and secular studies
• Re: luxuries
• Re: Limudei Chol
• Re: Catch up learning
• Re: Mincha Gedola?
• Kidra chaysa
• limudei chol
• BDD
• RE: Anonymity and list demographics

Mention was made that the Gra did not say Brich Shmey.  On the contrary,
Maaseh Rav #164 states that he did. 

Mention was also made about some minhagim which do not say the Aramaic
parts of Slichos. Can the writer be more specific? (Some Yeshivos omit
Machnisey Rachamim to avoid intermediaries, but all the Yeshivos I
attended said Rachamana.)  

Incidentally, vis-a-vis the question of Aramaic b'tzibur, the Aramaic
parts of Slichos are to be said *only* b'tzibur, not b'yachid.

What is fascinating is that the Bais Yosef (Orach Chaim 59) quotes the
Zohar about not saying the Aramaic of k'dusha d'sidra by more than one
person, in which the Zohar states,"Any *kedusha* that is in loshon
kodesh, an individual may not say it, while its Targum is only said by
one, v'simanach l'raza da: shnayim mikra v'echad targum," referring quite
explicitly to kedusha, yet the Bais Yosef concludes, "From this you will
understand that the reason we say the targum of Uva l'tziyon silently is
because something in Targum should not be said publicly," which is far
more than what the Zohar seems to be saying.

With reference to limudei chol: in the years I learned in Ponevez
(1953-56), it was official policy of the Ponevezer Rav to reserve 25% of
the places in the Yeshiva for the graduates of three yeshivot tichoniyot:
Chorev, in Yerushalayim; Yishuv Hechadash, in Tel Aviv; and Midr'shiyat
Noam, in Pardes Chana.  At that time, Harav Shach was a rosh yeshiva, but
was not known to have expressed any opinion against their presence.

Elazar M. Teitz

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Chana Luntz asked:

> Just a reality check here, does anybody know (even anonomously) that
> tephillin dates really exist.  Somebody once suggested to me that they
> were an Orthodox Jewish form of urban myth (ie like crocodiles in the
> sewer system) - everybody knows the story, but nobody actually knows
> anybody who can reputably verify their existance.
> 
> Of course, if they don't exist, it is an interesting socialogical
> study in and of itself to determine why people are convinced they do
> exist.

For what it's worth, I recall hearing in the late 1970's that Rabbi Riskin
had delivered a real "fire and brimstone" sermon against tefillin dates.
(When I asked what that was, my informant said, "you know, in our day it
was a toothbrush").  Impressionistically, I suspect that there is some of
this occurring, especially as the single population ages.

> Funny story (in a way).  Having dated in New York in the summer,
> shabbas goes out pretty late. That means, if the guy is coming from
> somewhere like Brooklyn to Manhatten, it can be midnight or so by the
> time the couple actually go out (which is not the problem it would be
> in other places finding somewhere to go as we are talking about the
> city that never sleeps).  And if you stay out talking for several
> hours, by the time the guy has made sure the girl has gotten home and
> then gotten back to Brooklyn himself, what with dawn coming up so
> early, really the most sensible thing for him to do is catch an early
> minyan on his way home and sleep afterwards.  But certainly one date
> of mine did not feel able to do that.  Why? - because that meant he
> would have had to take his tephillin to the date, and the connotations
> of that were too dire for him to contemplate, despite the complete
> innocence of the whole event.

CLASSIC maris ayin, I guess!
(That's AWFULLY late to be on the subway to Brooklyn... perhaps being on
the way to do a mitzva might not be such a bad idea!)

And.... not having grown up with this, clearly I have missed something...
what is the offense committed in a midnight raid on the cholent pot?
(Someone pointed out that housewives are often glad that there isn't too
much left over...)

Freda Birnbaum
(who rides the subway later than most folks)

R' Micha Berger wrote <<< B'rich sh'mei qualifies as a b'rachah. The
sheim is "Marei alma", which is as much a sheim as "Rachmana", the case
given in the gemara. >>>

The Mishna Brurah 214:4 writes that saying *either* Ad-noi or Elo-einu
will satisfy the "Shem" requirement for the bracha, at least b'dieved. He
explains in Shaar Hatziun 214:3 that <<< it seems pashut that the same
applies if he said any of the Seven Nonerasable Names, that he'd be
yotzay b'dieved, because all these are no worse than the word
"Rachamana". >>>

The Igros Moshe, Orach Chaim 4:40:27, disagrees, and says that only the
Shem HaMeforash may be used in a bracha, and not the other six Names. He
qualifies this as saying that outside the Beis Hamikdash, Ad-noi counts
as the Name for Lashon Hakodesh, and that other names have specific words
which are used as His proper names, such as Gott in German, Bog in
Polish/Russian, and Rachamana in Aramaic. Whatever language one uses, he
must say His personal Name; Rav Moshe writes explicitly that "Baruch Atah
Rachum, Elokeinu..." or "Baruch Atah Chanun, Elokeinu..." will NOT work.

I'm no expert. There might be another posek who says that "Marei alma" is
a Shem, but Rav Moshe clearly does not, and I believe that the Mishna
Brurah also does not.

Although it could be argued that *grammatically*, "Rachamana" means "The
Merciful One", and there is a temptation to translate it into Hebrew as
"HaRachaman", the way it is *used* in Aramaic shows that it is His proper
name, and the proper translation would be "God" in English, or "YKVK" in
Lashon Hakodesh. I don't remember where I heard this explanation, but it
seems to fit with Rav Moshe's examples above.

Akiva Miller

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

> 
> >Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 14:12:14 -0800 (PST)
> >From: harry maryles<hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> >Subject: RE: Limudei Chol
> >
> >
> >HM
> >
> 
> To attend University in Israel you need at least a minimal Te'udat Bagrut
> (matriculation certificate) which means math, sciences, English, history,
> Tannach etc. through High School.With a few exceptions, most **MALE**
> hareidi secular education does not go beyond the equivalent of a 6-7th
> grade level.
> 
Students over the age of 30 do not need bagrut (high school exams) to
enter University in Israel.

Efforts are underway to develop a college program for chareidi men in
Israel

A program in Social Work already exists


reuven

harry maryles wrote:

I must have missed something somewhere. Who proposed anything like
socialist sharing of wealth? Throwing such extremes into the discussion
is not productive. I have not read any post that proposed such
outlandish solution. Seem most disagreement centered on spending obscene
amounts of money to outdo the "Joneses.
steve

> --- "Carl M. Sherer" <csherer@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> > On 31 Oct 99, at 16:02, Alan Davidson wrote:
>
> >  So the next time you
> > go to a $400
> > a plate wedding, think that could be food for two
> > Shabbosim for a
> > family of ten whose kids all sleep on the floor. And
> > then think of
> > something better to do with the money.
>
> Who could disagree with the above statement? But,
> isn't that the Socialist/Kibbutz Ideal?  Are we going
> to let Socialist ideals define our lifestyle"? Are we
> to create a society where all people live exactly the
> same way. Should our attitude be  "Let's just share
> the wealth. It doesn't matter who earns it.  After all
> it isn't fair that Mr. Ploni makes more than I do and
> gets to spend it. Let us just pool all of our earnings
> into one fund and then divide it by all people in the
> pool."
>
> But I have been guilty of the same kind of thinking.
> Many years ago, I attended a board meeting of the
> HSBY. We had a budget deficit of about $40,000.  The
> President at the time, who was, and still is, a very
> generous individual, came "crying" to us how terrible
> it was that we were in this situation. We dicussed
> various ways that we could "squeeze" more money out of
> the parents, and other posible ways of new
> fundraising.  I remember thinking if the President of
> the school would only sell his Lexus, and by a Hyundai
> in it's place, it would almost solve our problem.
>
> HM
>
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

< Why are there more Mincha Gdola minyanim 
> in the business districts of Manhattan than there are in the 
> business districts of Tel Aviv or Yerushalayim? (Note, I said Mincha 
> Gdola and business districts).>
	Is there a correlation between Mincha Gedola and learning that I missed?
  Be that as it may,  It is true that many of the minyanim have short
shiurim associated with them,  and many even have a daily daf yomi or
other kavua type shiur.   I am disappointed to hear that this is not the
case in Yerushalayim;  perhaps it is a small enough city that the
business people looking for a minyan/shiur just jump into what is
available to the general public rather than form a businessman's special.

Gershon

>  From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
> Subject: Re: Limudei Chol

> NOTE - this applies one of my basic theories of differences in 
> learning between EY and chu"l. If you put together a 16-year old 
> Yeshiva Ktana kid from EY and a 16-year old from the best Yeshiva 
> high school in chu"l, the Israeli will learn circles around the 
> chutznik. He has a bkius that the chutznik can only dream about, 
> that is the product of not having a language barrier. He will read a 
> Gemara and Rishonim more fluidly, he knows a good part of 
> Tanach by heart, he may well have been through major portions of 
> Shulchan Aruch. Send both kids to Yeshiva Gdola and get them 
> back together at 21. The odds are that the chutznik has caught up. 
	I am familiar with the first part.  Is the second conclusion empirical? 
It would be mighty encouraging,  at least to those in the chu"l side of
the equation.

Gershon

> >       Please indicate your usual Shabbos/Shabbat head covering:
> None of the above!
	OK my apologies to the ladies of the list for not considering them.

> >       Please indicate your Internet access:
> None of the above!
	You don't have email?

> >       Please indicate your television access:
> >
> >1.  No TV, radio or newspapers
> >2.  No TV
> >3.  Only for the news
> >4.  We censor what the kids watch
> >5.  DVD projection set
> 
> None of the above!
	You lost me here.

> >       Please indicate your preference of newspaper:
> >
> >1.  Der Yid
> >2.  Yoseid (sorry!)
> >3.  Yated
> >4.  New York Times
> >5.  Village Voice
> 
> None of the above!
	OK;  add to all questions,  6.  Other, specify__________

> So, how do I score?
	Micha scores,  but I think you didn't give him enough to go on!

Gershon

I can't believe he forwarded the whole digest..............
Gershon
 
> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 12:50:17 +1100
> From: SBA <sba@blaze.net.au>
> Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #88
> 
> Avodah wrote:
> 
> > Avodah            Monday, November 1 1999            Volume 04 : 
> Number 088
> >
> > Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
> >
> > They don't want to convert us: halevay
> > Orthodox acitivists
> > Lower Salaries for Women and Ono'oh
> > equal time
> > Yoatzos,  once again
> > cc
> > Lubavitcher Rebbe ztvkll"h and college
> > limudei chol
> > learning secular studies
> > Re: Limudei Chol
> > Re: Avodah V4 #85
> > Re: Conspicuous consumption
> > Re: Avodah V4 #85
> > Re: DO vs DON"T
> > Re: luxuries
> > Women Going to Shul on Shabbos (was Re: Shul centred Judaism)
> > It can happen here
> > Re: Avodah V4 #76-  geshem
> > Re: Limudei Chol

On 2 Nov 99, at 0:22, Shlomo Godick wrote:

> Thus the conclusion is that RW poverty in Bnei Brak as well as Lakewood, and
> the associated pain and suffering as reflected in Carl Sherer's post, is a
> direct result of the Gedolei Torah.  >
> 
> I don't follow the above logic, although, having been born and raised in the
> U.S., I can understand its appeal to the American Jewish mentality.  SInce
> when does one have to be a professional or have a strong background in
> secular studies to be financially self-supporting?   Ever hear of
> successful businessmen?  Successful people in the diamond business
> (all phases)? In Israel, at least, even melamdim command fairly good
> salaries these days.   Quite a number of young charedi men are very
> successful as programmers or hardware technicians (after having
> undergone only non-academic, technical  training).  Other posters have
> mentioned sofrim, shochtim, etc.

I would only add that while a college degree is required for nearly 
all types of parnassa in the US, that is not true in EY (and I 
understand that it is not true in England either). We don't have 
many sanitation engineers with BA's in Philosophy here :-) 

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 1 Nov 99, at 16:55, harry maryles wrote:

> 
> 
> --- "Carl M. Sherer" <csherer@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> > On 31 Oct 99, at 16:02, Alan Davidson wrote:
> 
> >  So the next time you
> > go to a $400 
> > a plate wedding, think that could be food for two
> > Shabbosim for a 
> > family of ten whose kids all sleep on the floor. And
> > then think of 
> > something better to do with the money.
> 
> 
> Who could disagree with the above statement? But,
> isn't that the Socialist/Kibbutz Ideal?  Are we going
> to let Socialist ideals define our lifestyle"? Are we
> to create a society where all people live exactly the
> same way. Should our attitude be  "Let's just share
> the wealth. It doesn't matter who earns it.  

No, and I was not suggesting that. Personally, I thrive on the 
capitalist system (I'm a lawyer who works in the capital markets). 

But I think there's a line that can be drawn between conspicuous 
consumption that is a means of flaunting what one has, and 
making an affair at which guests will feel comfortable and will come 
to be mesameyach and not just for the fancy food. There's a happy 
mean somewhere between serving Yerushalmi Kugel and cheap 
soft drinks on the one hand, and having a shmorgasboard with 
twenty types of meats, a meal that includes four or five choices for 
main dishes and a fifteen piece band on the other. There's a mean 
between having an affair with barely a minyan and having an affair 
that requires a stadium to accomadate. My argument is that those 
who tend towards the larger, more generous affairs should 
*voluntarily* do something to help out those who can barely afford 
(or who cannot afford) the smaller, less elaborate affairs.

When we lived in the States, I was often invited to chasunas of 
Lakewood boys (we did not live in Lakewood, but we lived in a 
community where there is a Yeshiva from which many of the boys 
went on to Lakewood, and since many of them were our Shabbos 
guests, we were often invited to the chasunas). One of the things 
that always impressed me was how the boys always went around 
collecting for "Lakewood Tattie" during the meals (raising money for 
boys whose families could not afford to make them proper 
chasunas). I think it showed a sense of social responsibility from 
which many gvirim could learn.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 1 Nov 99, at 17:21, Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer wrote:

> But, this is the critical point. The chosen few that do not burn out (an
> admittedly small amount) never burn out. And, to them, the Americans do
> not catch up. They are the ones who will become gedolim. So, from the
> perspective of an educational system based on the tenets laid out by R'
> Dessler al pi the CI in MME III p. 353, the secular studies must be
> severely curtailed. That is the position that is taken by the YK system.
> Whether one agrees or not, for their goals, it is understandable.

I understand the position. 

OTOH, if the odds of becoming a gadol are about 0.01% and the 
odds of becoming a dropout by the end of Yeshiva Ktana are 20-
30% (which is the figure I have gotten from people who are a lot 
closer to the situation than I am), then which do I choose? 

If I am convinced that the three hours a day "wasted" on limudei 
chol will not make my son's learning any less than that of his 
Yeshiva Ktana counterparts (since a kid here generally does not 
have the language barriers that a kid coming from the States would 
have), which do I choose? For the record, nearly all the graduates 
of my son's Yeshiva go on to RW Yeshiva Gdolas, and they are 
consistently the top guys in those Yeshivas. 

I don't expect my son to have to play catch-up as an American 
bochur would, but I do hope that by spending three hours a day 
doing limudei chol, he will IY"H feel that a distraction has been 
removed when he gets to Yeshiva Gdola, while at the same time 
deriving some side benefits that will pay off IY"H if he ever has to 
work outside the Yeshiva velt.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 1 Nov 99, at 23:38, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> >  From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
> > Subject: Re: Limudei Chol
> 
> > NOTE - this applies one of my basic theories of differences in 
> > learning between EY and chu"l. If you put together a 16-year old 
> > Yeshiva Ktana kid from EY and a 16-year old from the best Yeshiva 
> > high school in chu"l, the Israeli will learn circles around the 
> > chutznik. He has a bkius that the chutznik can only dream about, 
> > that is the product of not having a language barrier. He will read a 
> > Gemara and Rishonim more fluidly, he knows a good part of 
> > Tanach by heart, he may well have been through major portions of 
> > Shulchan Aruch. Send both kids to Yeshiva Gdola and get them 
> > back together at 21. The odds are that the chutznik has caught up. 
> 	I am familiar with the first part.  Is the second conclusion empirical? 
> It would be mighty encouraging,  at least to those in the chu"l side of
> the equation.

I don't know how one could empirically verify it, but I have heard it 
from many sources. 

I should clarify (as RYGB alludes to in his post) that while the 
American bochur can catch up to the average serious Israeli 
bochur, he is unlikely to catch up to the true iluyim here (because 
of the level of bekius).

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 1 Nov 99, at 23:45, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> < Why are there more Mincha Gdola minyanim 
> > in the business districts of Manhattan than there are in the 
> > business districts of Tel Aviv or Yerushalayim? (Note, I said Mincha
> > Gdola and business districts).>
>  Is there a correlation between Mincha Gedola and learning that I
>  missed?

I'm not sure that there is. But as someone in the business world for 
many years, I can tell you that it is generally a lot easier to get out 
of the office for Mincha at lunch time than it is to get out b'zman. Is 
it the case that a larger percentage of fruhm American 
businessmen daven Mincha with a minyan than fruhm Israeli 
businessmen? Maybe. Suffice it to say that I had a much easier 
time catching Mincha with a minyan in Manhattan than I did in Tel 
Aviv, and than I do in the winter in Yerushalayim.

perhaps it is a small enough city that the
> business people looking for a minyan/shiur just jump into what is
> available to the general public rather than form a businessman's
> special.

Could be, at least in Yerushalayim. Or maybe people just get 
home earlier here. But I do miss the ease of finding a minyan in the 
office building across the street that I had in Manhattan.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

The +ACI-practically perfect+ACI- (that's borrowed from +ACI-Mary Poppins+ACI-) Gershon
Dubin wrote:

+ACI- . . .
I am up to date on Daf Yomi,
Shnaim Mikra,  the kriah for the next day and many meforshei haparsha.  I
have also washed all the dishes from the seudah.+ACI-

Please apprise the list of your choice of vitamin or controlled substance,
whichever it is that makes this self-effacing perfection possible.


If I have fallen
asleep,  the boys do their own raiding with my and my wife's blessing and
yes, they are coming to the raid following several hours of limud Torah
after the seudah.

.. . . .

We have the type of crock pot which does not have an insert but a pot
which sits on top of a heating element,  which is covered for Shabbos.
Since the cholent is completely mevushal,  chazara is,  as far as I
recall,  mutar under those circumstances.  One does not need a heter to
remove it.+ACI-

If I used the word +ACI-heter,+ACI- I did not intend it as a pejorative synonym for
+ACI-kula.+ACI-

Again, not everyone's cholent is arranged as perfectly as yours and
for some--as by now has become apparent from subsequent posts--there may
remain issues of bones, mitztamek,  etc. BTW, that your cholent +ACo-is+ACo-
mevushal by midnight is precisely what started an aspect of this thread in
the first instance, to wit (long sentence alert): does kidra chaysa apply if
your cholent though
not ready before Shabbos becomes ready well before your second, i.e. daytime
meal, and therefore eviscerate the heter (I think that's a fair description)
of kidra chaysa which is based on the uselessness of stirring a pot that can
not possibly be ready before tomorrow i.e.Shabbos morning?

By contrast, any concoction that is not ready before Shabbos yet which may
be ready anytime later in the evening does apparently not benefit from this
heter.  While in the perfect Dubin world this may, for a variety of reasons
not present a problem, and in any event apparently interests you even less
than nuclear proliferation, for others this may present a practical problem
or at least one of theoretical interest.

Besides Rav Henkin's position (don't do it) and that of Jordan (who am I to
judge), you did not address that issue.

+ACI-Now that we have all that out of the way,  can we discuss something
lighter like nuclear proliferation?  Give me a break+ACEAIg-

Your dismissive and belittling exasperation is unbecoming.  If you think
that the enhancement of one's oneg shabbos at the unconsented to expense of
another (not in your household, however) is acceptable conduct, that's fine.
Surprise+ACE- Your opinion does not per se invalidate that of others.  No less
to give encouragement and succor, by implication or otherwise,  to
thoughtlessness on a list dedicated to thinking.

Noach Witty

>> 
>> Does anyone know the Lubavich position on college
>> studies?
> 
> College is Assur!
> 
> Secular studies are a wstye of time and whenever
> possible should be avoided.
> To that extent,  The Lubavitch Mesivta (HS) does not
> have a secular program and in Detroit, The Lubavitch
> elemetry school does not have a secular program.
> The only time Lubavitch allows a secular program is if
> it the only way they can establish a school.
> 
I though all states in the US require secular studies through the 10th grade.

Eli Turkel

I have again be asked about BDD
It is a semi-annual journal from Bar Ilan
Bekhol Derakhekha Daehu.
I belive 8 volumes have appeare do far. Dr. Shlomo Sternberg's article
appeared in vol 4. There were later several responses to his article and his
answer to them.
The journal is in Hebrew/English and deals mainly with scientific &
philosophic issues in Judaism. I personally recommend it.

Eli Turkel

> think).  Can you point to where this particular medrash is
> found?  Was the
> dress that they didn't change uniquely ivri or was it simply
> foreign to Egypt?
>

My index lists the medrash as Shmot Rabba 1, 33 and Tanna D'Vei Eliyahu
Rabba.

(My Bar Ilan CD is loaned out at the moment, so I can't check it.)

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]