Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 091

Monday, November 1 1999

• Re: Limudei Chol
• Re: DO vs DON"T
• Re: Women Going to Shul on Shabbos (was Re: Shul centred Judaism)
• Re: Lost Medrash
• Learning - Special Interests
• Re: Learning - Special Interests
• Re: Gender Roles in Halachah and Aggadah
• Re: Extremes
• Channeling tayvos
• Re: Bnei Torah and Tolerance
• Re: Bnei Torah and Tolerance
• re: B'rich Sh'meh
• Re: This again would justifying only rolling back mistaken heteirim. Mistaken
• Re: Shorshei minhag ashkenaz
• Re: B'rich Sh'meh
• (no subject)
• Re: B'rich Sh'meh
• Re: Avodah V4 #85
• Re[2]: B'rich Sh'meh

----- Original Message -----

> > > (BTW, I sincerely regret every single moment I spent
> > > studying trig in HS.
> > > B"H I was never required to take physics. A major
> > > waste of time. Tolstoy
> > > would have been a lot more useful!)
> >
> > Emplyment is not the only reason to study Mada.
>
> It may not be, but it sure makes the time spent on learning
> something other than Torah a lot more easy to justify.
>

Look, I wasn't an extraordinary masmid in HS, but I did put in extra hours.
I understand perfectly well that they had to meet state requirements, but,
beyond trig, my time spent for a whole year in Spanish class (65 was my
final grade), of which I remember little more than "hasta manana" (which I
might remember, in fact, because a kid in the class used to say it every
day) was an utter waste of time even greater than the trig. Someone wrote
here that HS is 80% wate and 20% important, but no one knows at the time
what is and what is not important. Don't you think, however, that some
people who know what interests them and what does not, might be better off
learning?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

Carl M. Sherer wrote:

> The Gemara in Moed Katan 17 says that if one wishes to do an
> aveira he should go to a city where no one knows him and dress in
> black so that at least he is not mechalel Hashem. The rishonim
> there comment that by having to go to another city and dress in
> black, the person will be prevented from doing the aveira, because
> he will be ashamed of himself. That shame comes from social
> pressure.
> -- Carl
> Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
> Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
> Thank you very much.

  Is that why you see so many Jews wearing black suits and hats?
sk

Carl M. Sherer wrote:

> On 31 Oct 99, at 22:57, Chana/Heather Luntz wrote:
>
> If it makes you feel any better, I was the same way when we first
> got married with dragging Adina to shul (until she had our first child
> and there was no eruv in the neighborhood at the time), and I'll bet
> if you poll the guys on this list, you'll find that many others were (or
> are - depending on their stage of life) too.
>
> And I can't even tell you why. I had this inexplicable need (which I
> never had when I was single) to have someone else go to shul with
> me. Who knows, maybe it will happen again when the kids are all
> grown up and out of the house, and then I will be able to explain
> it....
> -- Carl
> When our children were young my wife rarely went to shul. Now that we are
> old and gray and our children are gone, she is a regular. On Shabbat she
> comes with me and you know at what time a yekki get there.sk



> Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
> Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
> Thank you very much.

     Joel Rich wrote:
     
     <<Mitzraim, yes -- the midrash brings down that the Jews merited 
     redemption from Egypt on account of three things: They didn't change 
     their names, language, and dress.>>
     
     >>We've discussed this on the list before (prior to your participation 
     I think).  Can you point to where this particular medrash is found?  
     Was the dress that they didn't change uniquely ivri or was it simply 
     foreign to Egypt?
     
     
     Rishonim quote it - look particularly at meforshim on the haggadah 
     about "metzuyanim."  Rav MM Kasher found it in a manuscript and 
     brought it down in an essay in the back of one of the volumes of Torah 
     Sheleimah (Bo?).

btw, would this fly re: Yeshivishe learning too?

I once requested concntrating my learing on TUR/SA to the exclusion of Gemoro.  
Would any yeshiva accomodate a speical request like this?

(FWIW Mechnias Ner Yisroel let me do if for the last few weeks of the zman)

This was a bit of a hot topic at YU where some Talmidim wanted to split time off
from Gemor and spend more on Tanach w/o abandoning the RIETS track entirely..

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

 Don't you think, however, that some people who know what interests them 
and what does not, might be better off learning?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:


> I once requested concntrating my learing on TUR/SA to the exclusion of Gemoro.  
> Would any yeshiva accomodate a speical request like this?


Porat Yosef let me do something similar.


---sam

In v4n76, Janet E Rosenbaum <jerosenb@hcs.harvard.edu> writes:
:> Men, OTOH, are not only expected to be fathers and husbands, but are also the
:> only ones able to recieve true semichah (bimheirah biyameinu we should have
:> such a thing), be dayanim, serve as kohanim and levi'im, shoftim, shot'rim,
:> milachim, or wield serarah (whatever that is exactly). There's clear halachic
:> indication that aside from his role in the Jewish home, men have to assume
:> a role running Jewish society. There's also the same implication in the fact
:> that "vinikdashti bisoch adas b'nei yisrael" boils down to defining an "eidah",
:> a community, as 10 males.

: I think that this dichotomy falls into the same reductionist trap you
: criticise above:  that men have some religious mandate should not imply
: that they should define themselves less by their family roles.  further,
: that they have religious responsibilities should, if anything, imply that 
: they should spend less time than women in secular professions, not more.  
: (the kollel example, that is.)

I was trying to establish that halachah requires men to be in two places: the
home as well as the eidah. As no one can be in both places at once, this does
require the man spending less time at the home. Also implied by the "gever"
side of RSRH's explanation of Yirmiyahu.

More relevently, the discussion isn't whether a woman should take a job. It's
whether a woman who takes a job or career is any less expected to define her
Avodas Hashem in terms of the home.

Which is why I prefaced my comment by saying that we take working too centrally
to our self-image. The fact that the woman is in the workplace "virochok
miPENINIM michrah" doesn't change the fact that her kavod is still penimah --
not out there as well.

: since i answered your scj post, i suppose i will do it again:

Sorry, I missed it. However, this is a better venue for this discussion. In
scj, saying "X is what is supported by mesorah" doesn't serve as a proof of
anything. (see below)

: judaism is all-encompassing, as is halacha.  recognising that halachic
: decisions can stem from the experience in the home is a huge step towards 
: underlining the home's importance, erasing the notion that the public
: sector is the only important one.

However, the giving of decisions itself isn't a home-centric position. You're
assuming a communal leadership position. The notion you're asking to be erased
isn't going to be raised either way, since decisions about the home are made all
the time as-is.

: if you would cite "inherent differences" as a further justification for
: this sharp role distinction, i'm not sure why you wouldn't see that halacha 
: would benefit from the different perspective.  women and men are, after
: all, two distinct halves of the divine image.  

I would argue that halachah is the product of da'as, not binah. See
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol01/v01n001.html#74> and
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol01/v01n001.html#81>. For R' Winston's
interpretation, see <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol01/v01n001.html#76>.

My thesis was that da'atan kalos vs. binah yeseirah indicates a cognitive
difference, one that renders women more prone to creativity, to mesiras nefesh
and to yir'as shamayim, but less connected to da'as Torah. A different-but-
equal situation.

However, I need not invoke inherent differences as I'm trying to make an
argument not specific to women poskim. I'm questioning the whole concept of
placing women in roles of communal religious leadership, as women are supposed
to be our key people in the position of familial religion (again, see below).
I'm afraid we'll reform ourselves into Adas Yisrael to the exclusion of B'nei
Yisrael.

As for reason: same as kohein vs. levi vs. yisrael -- different people have
different roles. I'm perfectly content considering it a chok.

:>: Solomon writes that "the honor of the king's daughter in inside". This is
:>: taken by Maimonides (to an extreme we would never find acceptable today) as
:>: well as many many others as a halachic priority.  

: the rambam said a lot of things about women, fortunately none of them binding
: or else i would have used up my quota for leaving the house for the rest
: of my life.

Fine, so you agree that the Rambam's ruling isn't normative halachah today.
However, it doesn't change the fact that KBM"P is considered a halachic goal by
everyone else -- from Shas (Talmud Bavli, not the party) to R' Moshe. This is
the "argument from mesorah" I was referring to above. Something has to be done
with this concept, you can't just ignore it because it doesn't fit contemporary
value systems.

I quoted RSRH because his application is very limited. It doesn't limit a
woman's role to the home -- it centers her Avodas Hashem there.

:>: religious homes. IOW, it's not about where women shouldn't be, it's about
:>: where we need them to be -- at the forefront of the center of Judaism.

: assuming that's their inclination, that's super, but performing any
: mitzvot without kevanna is really not something we should encourage,
: much less force.  

I both disagree and think it's irrelevant to our conversation. Mitoch shelo
lishmah ba lishmah implies that we should encourage doing mitzvos without
kavannah since the kavanah will come later on. I think it's irrelevent though
because we're discussing ideals. What should we be encouraging women to
aspire to? You shifted the question to how to deal with a possibly non-ideal
situation -- the woman doesn't want her avodas Hashem to be centered at the
home, now what do we do.

As a community, if we enshrine the non-ideal we encourage further and further
divergance from the ideal. (The proverbial slippery slope.)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  1-Nov-99: Levi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 62a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Another example of how extemes tend to balance: nevu'ah and avodah zarah both
ended in the same generation. The last of the nevi'im are described in the
gemara as the ones who killed the yeitzer hara for avodah zarah. R' Aryeh
Kaplan writes that their demise is causally connected -- by killing the
challenge of one, you kill the ability to reach the other. Note also the y"h
is portrayed there as a firey lion that emerges from the kodesh hakdashim,
implying that the y"h exists because of the vast potential available.

To put it in very rationalistic terms: The presence of a challenge gives people
a tool of growth, so that the greater challenge should yeild opportunities
for greater growth. OTOH, any tool for growth can be abused, and therefore
a greater tool is also a greater challenge to avoid that abuse.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  1-Nov-99: Levi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 62a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

>To be melamed zechus (in a reflection of R. Levi Yitzchok of Berdichev) frumme 
>yidn have channeled a lot of their taavos into food.  How superior is this than 
>being into alcohol, drugs, licentious behaviour etc. Another case of a lesser evil perhaps?

>Rich Wolpoe 

One would like to believe that frume yidn are not as "into" alcohol, drugs, and licentious
behavior, but I'm not sure. Are there reliable statistics on the matter? (I imagine incomplete
ascertainment -- i.e., not telling -- would be a formidable difficulty to overcome. And socioeconomic differences, etc., would also have to be controlled for.)

NB: I mean "frum" in its sociological, not its ideal sense.  Clearly, true erlekhe yidn should and do avoid these behaviors.

Sholem Berger

RRW <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com> writes:
: My theory is that certain halochos remain "optional" or debatble and in flux
: and then a consensus builds.

Moshel Koppel, in Metahalachah, argues that halachah remains intuitive until
we lose that bit of intuition and need to codify and formalize the halachah.
"Intuitive halachah" he compares to our intuitive knowledge of our first
language: you don't operate using rules of grammar, you just know proper
grammar (or at least usable grammar) when you see it. Fomalized grammatic rules
are far less flexible. Therefore, he feels that more variety can exist in
earlier generations, where people are more like "native speakers" and can
intuitively know when they're breaking the boundries.

: And this is why I disgaree with you Micha that we can reverse the
: evolutoin of halocho that has taken place via Shut and Botei Dinim by
: dint of archaeological evidence to the contrary. Indeed, it can be shown
: aracheologically that in year X RT's tefillin were ok, that would not
: make them the preferred model now.

The question is whether practice can evolve in ways that are contrahalachic.
Yes, halachah should never be rolled back. However, if it turns out that the
practice followed by K'lal Yisrael is outside of halachah, I would say that
it should. Which is why I keep on comparing the notion to minhag ta'us. If we
could show that current practice is only justifiable via a ta'us (and not just
that it happened to be justified that way) why shouldn't we consider the
possibility that the practice is outside of halachah?

This again would justifying only rolling back mistaken heteirim. Mistaken
chumros (in the few cases where no kulah is involved as well) could never
be outside of halachah -- at worst, shava alei chaticha di'isura or lifnim
mishuras hadin.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  1-Nov-99: Levi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 62a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 11/1/99 3:20:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< 
 This again would justifying only rolling back mistaken heteirim. Mistaken
 chumros (in the few cases where no kulah is involved as well) could never
 be outside of halachah -- at worst, shava alei chaticha di'isura or lifnim
 mishuras hadin.
 
 -mi >>
and the reason for the lack of symmetry is?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

Many people have submitted posts which state WHETHER B'rich Sh'meh is
included in one minhag or another. I have not seen any post which
adequately explains ***WHY*** it would be deliberately excluded.

Someone pointed out that the Bracha L'vatala objection doesn't make sense
because it's not a bracha. Another poster wrote that the Aramaic
objection only applies when a minyan is not present (as I always
understood), and whatever one might say about Uva L'tzion, there's
*always* a minyan present for B'rich Sh'meh.

I am led to conclude that there are communities which never took on the
minhag of saying it, but there is no reason to explicitly ban it. Did I
miss something?

Akiva Miller

___________________________________________________________________
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I wrote:
> This again would justifying only rolling back mistaken heteirim. Mistaken
> chumros (in the few cases where no kulah is involved as well) could never
> be outside of halachah -- at worst, shava alei chaticha di'isura or lifnim
> mishuras hadin.

To which Joel Rich <Joelirich@aol.com> asks:
: and the reason for the lack of symmetry is?

I'll try again, as the paragraph you quote tries to address this very question.

There's nothing assur with following minhag avos that was based on a false
premise. Perhaps it runs counter to the aggadita in which we're asked if we
took full hana'ah from Hashem's world. But from a halachic perspecive, again
in the few cases where no kulah is involved, there's no issur.

However, to be matir something that later knowledge of the physical reality
would indicate an issur does run the risk of violating that issur.

IOW, in both cases I would say that we have an element of doubt as to whether
we fully understand the entire motivation for a p'sak or din. However, "playing
safe" is often possible -- to go back to the issue of batzei kinim, just
consider them treif. Perhaps safeik diRabbanan likulah should apply in piskei
halachah based on ta'us in dinim diRabbanan.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  1-Nov-99: Levi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 62a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

>Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz
>Does anyone know if a secons volume of the SMA was ever published?
>Thanks,
>YGB


I asked again about two weeks ago. The answer is still: NO

I could see two reasons to actually have a minhag no to say it (as opposed to
no minhag to say it), both of which were already mentioned on the list:

1- As part of a general rule not to use the Zohar in tephillah, made in
   reaction to Shabbatai Zvi.

2- B'rich sh'mei qualifies as a b'rachah. The sheim is "Marei alma", which is
   as much a sheim as "Rachmana", the case given in the gemara. Malchus is
   "kisrach" -- isn't a keser a symbol of malchus?

#1, though, was the only reason I heard before we had this discussion.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  1-Nov-99: Levi, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 62a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

               Monday, November 1, 1999



                         Ex-UK chief rabbi Jakobovits dies


                  By Sharon Sadeh, Ha'aretz Correspondent and AP

                  Britain's former chief rabbi, Lord Immanuel
                  Jakobovits, died yesterday at the age of 78 from an
                  apparent brain hemorrhage. He will be laid to rest
                  later today on the Mount of Olives in an official
                  ceremony attended by representatives of Britain's
                  Jewish community and Israeli religious leaders.

                  Lord Jakobovits's successor, Dr. Jonathan Sacks,
                  issued a statement saying, "Lord Jakobovits was the
                  outstanding rabbinic figure of his generation. He led
                  the Jewish community with great dignity, wisdom
                  and courage. His influence was immense. He was a
                  giant of the spirit, and we mourn him deeply."

                  The Board of Deputies, the umbrella organization of
                  Britain's Jewish community, said, "Lord Jakobovits
                  had a deep moral conviction which displayed itself
                  in the manner in which he led the Jewish community
                  during his time as chief rabbi, and in his later years
                  as a peer in the House of Lords. He will be sorely
                  missed, not only by the Jewish community but by
                  British society as a whole."

                  Lord Jakobovits was chief rabbi of Britain from
                  1967 to 1991. He attended religious services as
                  usual on Friday and Saturday and showed no sign of
                  ill health. A memorial service was held yesterday at
                  the Hendon Synagogue in North London, after which
                  the rabbi's body was flown to Israel.

                  Britain will be represented at the funeral by Lord
                  Michael Levy, who brings with him a letter signed
                  by British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Blair said
                  Jakobovits "was a man deeply respected and widely
                  admired throughout the whole of this country for his
                  faith, his ability and his courage. He will be sorely
                  missed."

                  William Hague, leader of the Conservative Party,
                  said, "I am profoundly sad to hear of his death. He
                  will be long remembered as both a leader and a
                  teacher, unwavering in his commitment to moral
                  responsibility, education and tradition."

                  Jakobovits was born in Konigsberg, Germany on
                  February 8, 1921. He came to Britain in 1936, and
                  the rest of his family fled Berlin and joined him two
                  years later, following Hitler's rise to power. He was
                  educated at Jews' College, London and at the
                  University of London. He was chief rabbi of Ireland
                  at the age of 28 and in 1958 became first rabbi at
                  New York's Fifth Avenue Synagogue, a post he held
                  for nine years. He was a respected authority on
                  Jewish medical ethics.

                  Jakobovits served as governor of several Israeli
                  universities and as the president of the Conference of
                  European Rabbis. He believed the destiny of Israel
                  was to become "a beacon of light to other nations."

                  He received a knighthood in 1981 and was given a
                  peerage by the Thatcher government in 1988 - the
                  first Jewish religious leader to ever be made a lord.

                  He is survived by his wife, the former Amelie Munk,
                  their two sons, four daughters and 30 grandchildren.

                        ) copyright 1999 Ha'aretz. All Rights Reserved

In a message dated 11/1/99 3:58:11 PM EST, micha@aishdas.org writes:

> 2- B'rich sh'mei qualifies as a b'rachah. The sheim is "Marei alma", which 
is
>     as much a sheim as "Rachmana", the case given in the gemara. Malchus is
>     "kisrach" -- isn't a keser a symbol of malchus?

Shmei "D"morei Almoh, means the name OF the master of the universe, it's 
equivalent to saying in Hebrew Boruch Shem Melech (Adon) H'olom, does anyone 
consider Boruch Sheim Kvoid Malchusoi as a Bracha? Does anyone consider 
saying Riboinoi Shel Olom as saying a Sheim.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 14:12:14 -0800 (PST)
>From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
>Subject: RE: Limudei Chol
>
>> No way, except for the job training programs here in
>> Israel, like
>> programming, computer repair, accounting,
>> bookkeeping, electronics,
>> plumbing, locksmithing, carpentry, and so forth.
>>
>> Not to mention the jobs as Sofrim, Batim Makers,
>> Shoctim, Rebbes, Mashgicim,
>> etc.
>
>
>Too little, Too late, if you ask me. Correct me if I
>am wrong but, even though these new training programs
>exist, they are far too small to include all those who
>are in need. Also, who determines who is eleigible for
>attendance?  Is it only those who "can't make it " in
>learning?  And why can't some of these individuals be
>encouraged to attend a more traditional school or
>University?
>
>HM
>

To attend University in Israel you need at least a minimal Te'udat Bagrut
(matriculation certificate) which means math, sciences, English, history,
Tannach etc. through High School.  With a few exceptions, most **MALE**
hareidi secular education does not go beyond the equivalent of a 6-7th
grade level.

The job training programs have made a dent, but as you say too little, too
late. Also the training may not have the depth so that the trainee can keep
up with the inevitable changes that will occur as jobs/professions evolve
over time.

Also (responding to Akiva Atwood's original post), outside of programming
(assuming one learns the cutting edge stuff) and maybe plumbing, most of
these jobs are not well paying, particularly for large families.  And
"programming, computer repair, accounting, bookkeeping, electronics,
plumbing, locksmithing, carpentry" etc. do not constitute a knowledge of
the physical or natural sciences.

In a recent talk in J'lem, Rabbi Beryl Wein compared the grinding poverty
of Frum Jews in Eastern Europe during the 19th Century (which he feels
produced the Jewish socialists, secular zionists, reform, and the roots of
the present day religious-secular schism) and that of the present day
Hareidi community in Israel, and noted that it will sooner or later blow up
as well under the economic pressure.

hg


.............................................................................
                             Hershel Ginsburg, Ph.D.
              Licensed Patent Attorney and Biotechnology Consultant
                          P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27
                                  Efrat, 90435
                                    Israel
              Phone: 972-2-993-8134        FAX: 972-2-993-8122
                         e-mail: ginzy@netvision.net.il
.............................................................................

I recnetly posted one reason (backed up by a chavruso of mine), but so far not 
proven:

     As a result of the Shabtai Zvi debacle, German Kehillos CONSIOUSLY removed 
     all Kabbalistic Tefillos including Brich Shmei (which is from the Zohar) 
     and possibly also Ono Bechoach (which is omitted in German Kabbolas 
     Shabbos).

If this is so, then there would be a reason to consciously omit Brich Shmei.

One small rayo is that R. Nosson Adler was "evicted" from Frankfort for PUBLICL 
using a kabblistic nusach (I heard specifcially because he used to have 
duchening every day).

Another raya is that the few German kehillos that became Chassidic (eg Vienner 
and the Hungarian Oberlanders) by and large did NOT abandon Nusach ashkenza in 
favor of the Nusach Ari.

The German Minhog in general (not just Frankfort) opposed  Kabbalo in public; it
was relegated to yechidim in private only.

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: re: B'rich Sh'meh 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    11/1/1999 3:31 PM


Many people have submitted posts which state WHETHER B'rich Sh'meh is 
included in one minhag or another. I have not seen any post which 
adequately explains ***WHY*** it would be deliberately excluded.

Someone pointed out that the Bracha L'vatala objection doesn't make sense 
because it's not a bracha. Another poster wrote that the Aramaic objection 
only applies when a minyan is not present (as I always understood), and 
whatever one might say about Uva L'tzion, there's *always* a minyan 
present for B'rich Sh'meh.

I am led to conclude that there are communities which never took on the 
minhag of saying it, but there is no reason to explicitly ban it. Did I 
miss something?

Akiva Miller

___________________________________________________________________ 
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