Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 086

Sunday, October 31 1999

• RE: Raising Children
• DO vs DON"T
• Authorship
• RE: Unity; Tolerance; Bnay torah
• Request not to Crack Jokes about God
• How to Avoid Negiah and Tefillin Dates
• Hey...I did something right for a change
• RE: Discussing Multiple Viewpoints
• Torah fully supports Gender Economic Equality
• RE: Kri and KTIV
• RE: ONAOH on EQUAL PAY
• Re: Answer to HM: Most people do Mitzvoth for Social reasons (Bracoth)
• One More Thought on The Yoatzoth
• RE: ED ECHAD and FEMALE RABBIS

Joel Rich writes
>>>>>>>>>>
Without prejudice as to who, what, when and where the responsibility lies
- I 
have seen too many "frum" children being raised by housekeepers who don't

share our goals or methods.  At the risk of sounding old fashioned -
short 
spurts of "quality time" are no substitute for a mimetic role model - and

this goes for both parents if a child is so blessed. I don't know what
seif 
this is in but I suspect it's an important rule nonetheless.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I agree. When I was growing up my mother (who left the professional
world to raise all of us (and then went back)) always pointed out to
me deficiencies in her friends children who were still at work.

Following my mother's guidelines...if you just look around at those
who do work and those who don't--I am sure you can see "differences"
in the children.

Technically you cannot force a woman to stay home and raise her
children..
but the consequences are there nevertheless

Russell
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Noah Witty replies to my assertion that since RYBZ 
blessed his students >May your fear of heaven be
like your fear of man because when a person sins
he says 'I hope no one sees me'< therefore RYBZ
believed that people do mitzvoth primarily for
social reasons  as follows

>>
Contrary to RRH, the distinction twixt asseh and sin is very much in the
story. Doesn't RYBZ say in response to "Is that all?" that "Tayda, when a
person sins sins he hopes no one will see him." . . . .
>>>>>>>

OK..We are getting somewhere. The Controversy between
Me on the one hand vs Carl, Noah and the others is that
you believe that
	>people fear social reprisal when they sin
while I believe that both
	>people fear social reprisal when they sin
and
	>people do mitzvoth for social reward

But now I ask..."Why do we differ"---that is, what have
you seenin positive commandments that people should
do it for their own sake while in negative commandmens
you agree that they avoid sin for fear of social reprisal?

It is your distinction so kindly explain it? Why should 
such a difference exist? I on the other hand am 
consistent...If people avoid sin because of social
reprisal then they pursue mitzvoth for the same reason

Russell (PS It is DRH or DRJH not RRJ or RRJH)
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Rabbi B posted this anonymous message (which came to me (also)).
I initially thought it was addressed to me. I am just curious how many
people received it

>>>>>>>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:14:14 -0500
From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject: Fw: Mashiach must be coming...

Mashiach must be coming...From an anonymous correspondent...

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

- ----- Original Message ----- 
To: sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu 
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 2:02 PM
Subject: Mashiach must be coming...


Dear Rabbi Bechhofer, 
I'm a lurker to Avodah. 
Feel free to bring up this Gemara on "specialization": 
I believe Sotah 49b, on the 15 signs of Mashiach's coming, 
under the item: "Truth will Fail", has an opinion (or concludes) 
that this means that there will be specialization in Halacha. 
I don't believe anyone else brought it up, but I might be mistaken. 
(I apologize that if I'm sending this email to the wrong address.) 
Keep up the interesting discussions! 
Shavua tov, 

------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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One poster writes
>>while we would all agree with r broyde's point, i think when a
community

Actually I don't agree with Rabbi Broydes point. To achieve achdus we
need
2 things:
---Watching Leshon Hara (which includes, Tone, Dan Lecaf zecuth,
listneing 
etc (this is Rabbi broyde's point) AND ALSO
---Talmud Torah


Unless you are trained in how to make distinctions, how to resolve
conflicting opiinions, how to see exceptions to iron clad rules (part
of the process of Talmud Torah) I don't see how any one can watch
their tone or be respectful. 

So I would insist that to Rabbi Broyde's point of TONE be added 
Talmud. I believe these two together can help us 
achieve achdus. On the other hand AN AM HAARETZ CAN"T BE
A CHASID certainly applies to someone who is trying to listen and
respect some other point of view--he doesn't have the tools to do it.

Let me give a silly trivial but insightful example. I recently brought
many
sources to show that Rashi treats Malay and Chaser like a grammar rule

Now here is an example where I have brought a point of view that seems
to go against the trend that it is above us. Not everyone on this list
was sympathetic. To me this is more than a matter of tone. It is a matter
that some people have not been trained in halachic and midrashic process
sufficiently to recognize something new and true. It is this training we 
need if we are to learn to be tolerant to each other and maintain a good
tone

Russell
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Richard Wolpoe writes
>>>>>>>>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:30:46 -0400
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: b'rich sh'meh - (really) Bad Joke

Question: What is G-d's first name?
Answer:   Murray.
Question: how do you know?
Answer:   Because it says Brich Shmei de Murray Almo
Blessed be the name of Murray Almo 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
since an Issur DOraitha is involved in cracking Jokes
about God I would apprciate if we could have an offical
policy statement (by esteemed listowner) that such
behavior is unacceptable. 

As a member of this list I feel obligated to protest and point
out that the above posting violates halachah

Russell Hendel; http://www.shamash.org/rashi/
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Akiva Atwood writes
>>>>>>>>
> The Halochos of Negia are very complex and vary from
> one constituancy to another.

Actually, the halachos are fairly simple -- it's the outright ignoring of
halacha that's the major problem here, and that can lead to pre-maritial
sexual relations ("tefillin dates").

Akiva
>>>>>>>>>

this is the same point I made Rabbi Broyde. You don't just tell a person
DO NOT. You have to give them the skills to avoid things.

Again Talmud Torah can save us. A person who has a regular seder of
 learning (and is really learning instead of mouthing what his rebbe
says)
does not have as much time as others to sin. I am not saying he can't sin
if he doesn't want to. I am saying he has the tools to be occupied with 
other things and not sin.

There is too little emphasis on Talmud Torah today. If yeshivas teach 
Talmud Torah in such a way that everyone gets driven up a wall it is 
not doing any good

Russell
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Jerry Schachter writes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:00:00 +0200 (IST)
From: Jerry Schachter <schachte@netvision.net.il>
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #56

Response to Russell J Hendel in Avodah V4 #56, who wrote:

>the Rambam (Theft and Loss 11?) points out that unless
>you verbally explicitly stated to the non jew "Look I am
>relying on your count" you MUST return any losses.
>
>The reason the Rambam gives is because non jews sometimes
>deliberately make errors to see who is honest and that would
>lead to chillul hashem. 
>
>So it is not just that such errors are improbable...they are
>also possible from a deliberate audit.
>
>if however you think such a concern is rediculous in shop
>rite (because of technology and many customers you
>MAY have a point)


I might have thought that this concern is ridiculous, until an incident
at
Heathrow airport where, until recently, El Al passengers were easily
identifyable at the security check point since they had to wheel their
luggage all the way to the departure gate. (Religous Jewish passengers
can,
of course, be identified no matter where they're going.)

When emptying my pockets of metal objects before going through the
metal-detector arch, a five-pound note floated down to my feet; the
official
picked it up and asked, "Did you drop this, sir?"

Since I thought I had just relieved myself of all Brittish currency, I
told
him that I didn't think so.

The official then turned to another official on the side and said,
"Another
one declines", and the second official made a note on a list.

I shudder to think what kind of statistic may have been compiled, what it
may have shown, and what kind of publicity it may have gotten.


yaakov Schachter

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Actually it was the Rambam who did something right

Russell
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Michah asks
>>>>>>>>>>>>
We're discussing the organs of particularly movements: Agudah and the
(U),
respectively. Isn't the function of an organization's publication to
promote
the views of that organization? Yes, we need a forum for contrasting
multiple
viewpoints. However, why should we demand this of every periodical.
Doesn't
Agudah (or the (U)) have the right to spend money promoting and teaching
their
own range of views?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No. Orginazations do NOT have the right to spend money promoting only
their viewpoint. ACHDUS is not a prerogative of Avodah but of every
God fearing Jew. The only way an orignazation can teach adherence to its
views is by explaining why they differ from others.

There are Halachoth on this. The Rambam points out that Rabaynu Hakadosh
deliberately placed other viewpoints in the mishnah PRECISELY so that
the majority opinion should be accepted. As Rambam notes

>>
Had he (Rebbe) only put in majority views then people would not listen
thinking they discovered a new minority view. Precisely by putting in
minority views Rebbe in effect said: "Oh you have heard this view...
well it is known and was discussed and we hold the majority view"
>>

So...if Agudah wants to promote its view...then it is obligated to
explain clearly and lucidly all the other views and then state why
its view is preferred.

In fact Part of Hilcoth leshon hara is the concept of DN LECAF ZECUTH
and this requires us to understand the good in every view and 
orginazation.

To what can the matter be compared. To an orthodox shule that 
preaches orthodoxy. Nevertheless if one of its members gets 
involved with a non Jewish woman and refuses to convert her
or to leave her or to stop flouting her in public then 
it may be advisable for the Rabbi to 'push' this member out to
the local reform shule rather than just throw him out on the street
(I don't know if this analogy helps my point or hurts it but it
at least shows the richness of the issue)

Russell

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After reading Janet's lengthy post on women entering
professions & after reading some of the initial posts
I see that people are ignoring a halachic perspective (which
should be ONE component of the discussion).

As far as the Torah is concerned Women=Men with regard
to a) economic rights, b) moral responsibilities and c) spiritual
needs (This is a famous Gmarrah in BK which many people
seem to overlook because women do not equal men in the 
social sphere). In my Rashi Is Simple I cite the Gmarrah Rashi
and Tosafoth and show how the Posookim cleverly make it
explicit (by saying A MAN OR A WOMAN) that women =
men in these areas (which then creates a Binyan Av for all
matters (except the social sphere).

Furthermore as I have written on Torah Forum frequently 
halachah supports reverse discrimination for women
appearances in court.

The gist of the above is that any method by which men make 
money MUST be allowed (according to halachah) at the
same EARNING levels for women. 

Russell
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I thank people for bringing Mordechai Kornfeld's into the discussion
I was a member of his list for several years.

While he brings down some sources he does not bring down all.

Allow me to reopen the discussion with however proper sources
It is understood that this is not just something that can be settled
by Teshuvoth but rather something that must be accompanied by
many lists of such midrashim to see if there is a real problem. Such
lists are brought down by the Minchat Shai at the following 

1) Zec 2:12
2) Mal 2:15

The minchat shai goes out of his way to show that there is no
differences in texts and Chazal did not change anything. In my
own Rashi website (http://www.shamash.org/rashi/ I have 
frequently tried to show that their is a grammatical basis to
these midrashim).


3) Re the RDK which Mordechai quotes. This was actually brought
to my attention by Rabbi Bechoeffer when he ran the list BaisTefillah.

I showed in that list that RDK says "There are those who say" and he
didn't really hold the opinion. I then explained Rashis view which I
reproduce here.

--KI means IF
--KI IM means EXCEPT
--There are 4 KI IM in TNACH which are read KI IM and
written KI (without the IM). I show that Rashi (on Ruth)
holds these to mean PERHAPS EXCEPT.

So we have

KI = IF
KI IM = EXCEPT
KI IM (Ktiv KI) = PERHAPS  EXCEPT

OVer and above the remarkable capacity of Rashi to know such
minutae I therefore conclude that Rashi regarded KRI and KTIV
as a VEHICLE to describe NUANCES.

I have similarly treated Rashi on chumash. For example EPHRON
spelled deficiently in last weeks parshah means 
>he was a deficient person

In other words the spelling deficiency indicates a content
deficiency.

As already commented RDK does not disagree (or agree with
this)--but he cites an opinion. The MINCHAT SHAI brings 
a good list.

The conclusion of all this is that the proper attitude is that
we should work until we find the rules governing these

I hope this clarifies this difficult topic. For those who want
more examples see my Rashi website at the URL above.

Any questions on KRI and KTIV will be answered on my
Rashi website

Russell Hendel; Phd ASA
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The following sources and ideas may help on the 
equal pay vs Onooah issue (I am surprised that basic
halacoth have not been cited and complement Avrahm
for bringing up the issue)
 
---Sales 13:8--ONOOAH doesn't apply to Land, WOrkers, Documents
--Sales 13:15---EXPLICIT: No onaah on workers (but cp 13:18)
--Sales 14:1--Market prices are fixed but only for food essentials
--Sales 13:4--If you mention market value there is no ONAOOH
in selling for less
--Sales 14:-9:10 right of professional societies to fix market values
--Hire 9:3---A long halachah on hiring workers AGAINST market
value and how to assess the market value.

Some people might suffice with the above halacoth. Let me
bring some citations from postings.

Rabbi B writes

>>>>>>
I think it is Ono'oh. Yes. If the work is worth XYZ, v'ho'ra'aya, that is
what men get paid, then paying another substantially less may well be
Ono'oh.
>>>>>>>

A few points are worth noting

1) ONOOH applies to fixed market value---so Rabbi B's point is only
valid if EVERYONE gets paid xyz

2) You can stipulate against onooh in non essential food items (though
the exact language is tricky). In other words ONOOH can be perceived
as a DIN in non communication (You have every right to say the market
value is such and such but I will only pay such and such----no onooh
has been violated)

3) Hilcoth ONOOH explicitly recognize PERSONAL VALUE (for
example there is no onooah on selling your household items because
there is an intangible extra of PERSONAL VALUE). So too certain
professions have a right to charge extra if you belong to some recognized
society  See Sales 14:9-10 for an explicit statement of this


4) Finally as Avraham points out ONOONO only applies to movables
and currency. There is however a concept of Market value in Hilcoth
Sechiruth---it applies under certain circumstances when your agent
hired help without stipulating market value (or when stipulating
pay contrary to current market value). There are rules however
about assessing market value of labor.

5) The idea of having a fixed market occurs in the Rambam (in the
chapters after those on Onaooh in laws of sales) But only
for fixed essentials


Russell
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Carl

On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:43:40 +0200 "Carl M. Sherer"
<csherer@netvision.net.il> writes:
> On 18 Oct 99, at 20:58, Russell J Hendel wrote:
 
> 
> I think that gemara means that people refrain from doing aveiros for 
> 
> social reasons. Otherwise, why the reference to yira?
> 
> -- Carl

But Carl, what is the difference between 
>>Doing mitzvoth for social reasons
>>refraining from doing avairoth for social reasons

Russell
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All the postings so far (including my own) have focused on WHETHER
the Yoatzoth SHOULD exist and/or WHAT TYPES of questions they
can answer.

I would like to change the focus to HOW WE CAN BEST USE THE
YOATZOTH. Towards this end I bring 4 stories. This posting 
should be regarded as HOW I THINK THE YOATZOTH SHOULD
BE USED

1) YOATZOTH ADVISE ON MARRIAGE STABILITY
=========================================
A few years (decades ago) a prominent Rav in Boro Park said that
the reason we had so many divorces is because there was too much
television and not enough Torah. This Rav was severely criticized.

It seems to me that women who in general are more at home with their
emotions would be more able to IDENTIFY communal marital needs.
A knowledge of halachah could help them focus on what the community
needs. I will not elaborate more but I think this is a real possibility.


2) YOATZOTH HELP WITH CHANA PROBLEMS
======================================
On Shabbath Chana the Rabbi of my shule mentioned the following
dialogue he had
>>(Rav)You know wife abuse/beating is really assur 
and you should stop it
>>>>>Where does it say it is assur
>>For one thing on your Ketuvah you agree to treat your wife 
properly ...

I think the Rabbis point here was that even though we are a typical
"nice" orthodox congregation there are those of us with problems 
and perhaps we should speak to a Rabbi before things get out of
hand. Notice how the Ravs response was HALACHIK in nature.
I think YOATZOTH could help.

In a similar vein a few years ago I met a woman who went to Rav
Moshe and requested a divorce after 6 weeks of marriage (to one
of his talmidim). When Rav Moshe told her to "try it out a bit more"
she fainted on the spot. 

Again I think YOATZOTH could vastly help in situations like this
My point is you need not only SOCIAL skills you need HALACHIC
skills also


3) REBETTZIN JUNGREIS' HALACHIK ADVISE
======================================
Most people do not think of Rebettzin Jungreis as a YOETZETH.
She probably hasn't studied TM for 2000 hours. Yet when she founded
HINENI she introduced all types of ideas about how people should
be able to meet in a bale batesh atmosphere without "looking everyone
over".

My point is that the problem of NEGIAH (premarital or in marital) which
has been acknowleged on this group can also be attacked by takanoth
and advise of halachically knowledgeable women who will provide the
community with structures on what and how to provide meetings of
the opposite gender.

4) CLOTHS
=========
Finally a word about the "embarassment" of showing cloths to Rabbis
I still remember one Shabbath after Shiur a couple who normally did not
attend the Ravs shiur came to it. After shiur they asked a question 
about stains. Far from being embarassing, everyone gathered around
to hear the Ravs views on these matters. So Idon't think it is
embarassing
as people make it.

I hope this reopens the discussion with a focus on HOW CAN WE 
PREVENT NEGIAH, TRAPPED MARRIAGES, and LOWER OUR
DIVORCE RATE

Russell Hendle; http://www.shamash.org/rashi/

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Several people (eg Sender Baruch) have written to me about this
>>>>>>>>>>>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 14:46:34 +0000
From: sadya n targum <targum1@juno.com>
Subject: Ed Echad and female rabbis

In  #58, Russell Hendel writes, "We learn that one witness is believed in
issur-heter from women not from men.

So....the institution of a female Rabbi was NOT CREATED by Rabbanit
Henkin. It was created by Moshe Rabaynu. 
	
Also it is logical...you can't have issuray careth involving women's
status unless you trust them."

Am I missing something here? What does eligibility to attest have to do
with being a rabbi? If an am-haaretz gamur testifies that he saw a piece
of meat salted and soaked, he is believed.  Does this make him a rabbi,
or a posek in matters of kashrus?  
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Sadya here is my point--The following two cases are the same

Case 1: A women is cooking chicken soup. A cold dairy spoon 
(that has not been used in 24 hours) falls in and is immediately 
taken out(I am assuming the whole soup remains kosher). The
women is trusted to serve this soup as Kosher WITHOUT
telling her husband what had happened. Furthermore I think
most Poskim would agree that if she had been already advised
that the soup is Kosher the last time the spoon feel in she should
not feel obligated to ASK A SHEEILAH. In other words she is
trusted.

Case 2: Same soup. Same spoon. Same falling in. Except that
this women asks her neighbor if it is Kosher and her neighbor
tells her "that has happened to me several times and it is
 Kosher".

My point is simple. Torah Law (ala Moshe Rabaynu) trusts
the woman in Case 1. My point then is that the same criteria
apply to case 2--in other words the woman is equally trusted
to pasken for herself or her friend (what is the difference).

I could create similar pairs of cases for TM and then we would
have a justification FOR SOME USES OF FEMALE YOATZOTH.

Sadya also writes
>>>>>
If an am-haaretz gamur testifies that he saw a piece
of meat salted and soaked, he is believed.  Does this make him a rabbi,
or a posek in matters of kashrus?  
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Actually this too is my point. I would not believe an AM AHARETZ
GAMUR (your language) who told me something was Kosher. But
I would believe a Knowledgeable women and I don't see the difference
in paskening for others. In other words I am not looking at the Yoatzoth
as females but as people who studied 2000 hours.

Finally Sadya writes
>>>>>>>>>>

In the same issue,  a posuk is transliterated as "vayotzei oisoi."  What
manner of word is oisoi? Bad enough that the cholam is mispronounced.
Does it also have to be mistransliterated?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

This is infantile, false and slanderous. The "vayotzei oisoi" was made
in a posting by Yitzchok Zirkind responding to Chaim Brown. 

Why am I being blamed for this misspelling? (If I am not being
blamed why did you put it in the posting about my one witness)
Even if I had made it why mention it...this is Avodah you should be
concentrating on concepts not spelling?
Finally it may be slanderous since by placing this in the same posting
with your question to me you make me appear as incompetent.

I would respectfully suggest in the future that you separate complaints
into separate postings.

I also would suggest you concentrate on concepts

Russell Hendel;http://www.shamash.org/rashi

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