Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 082

Sunday, October 31 1999

• Re:Berikh Shemei
• Unecessary posting
• RE: monoliths and tefilin
• Re: Avraham Berliner
• Re: Nuclear Proliferation -- The Torah view
• Re: Pepsi Generation?
• RE: Ki Ner Mitzvah vTora Or
• A Rashi question
• Re: Avodah V4 #81
• Re: Anonymity and list demographics
• Re: Ortho activist
• Re: Pepsi Generation?
• Re: Berikh Shemei
• Re: Berikh Shemei/Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz
• Toward Tradition
• Re: Tzni'us in Material Acquisutions
• Rav Schach on Americans
• Re: A Rashi question

R' Steve Katz wrote
> It is my recollection that in Germany we said Brich Shemei (except for
> Yiskor) only on the Shabbos before Sh'vuos and on the Shabbos before >Tisha 
B'Av.

I think you switched Berikh Shemei with the Av Harahamim said by Ashkenazim 
before mussaf on Shabbat.

Berikh Shemei was not said at all in most Yekke shuls.  Av Harahamim was said 
before Shavuot because it was composed in memory of those killed by the crusaders 
of the first crusade as they passed through Germany in the weeks before Shavuot 
(1096?). Others began to say it during Sefirat Ha-omer and then all year (when there 
was no excuse to skip it) but the German Jews kept their original minhag.

And before someone posts that Berikh Shemei appears in Seligman Baer's Siddur 
Avodat Yisrael, I'll point out in advance that he notes that some people say it but that 
it doesn't appear in any old siddurim.  He also makes no  comments on it in his 
perush.  Even Reb Moshe Feinstein who was certainly not a yekke comments in Igrot 
Moshe that it does not appear in any rishonim and so is optional (I'll find it if asked)

A good source for Yekke custom is Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz by a Rav Hamburger.  
Interestingly, he manages to prove that every Yekki nusach and minhag is the correct 
one with the strongest basis and very much preferable to what the rest of us do or 
say. After that sentence, I suppose I needn't mention that I am not a Yekke.

biv'rakha,

David

Sorry to waste time and space. My posting on berikh Shemei was sent before I 
noticed that many others had already covered the subject long before I saw the 
original posting.

> 	I am not sure why not being able to make tefilin is
> equivalent to
> forgetting how they're supposed to look.  Even if virtually nobody now
> can make their own tefilin,  do they therefore think that tefilin are
> parshios tied directly onto your arm i.e. no batim?  I think I may be
> missing the point here.
>

Didn't the Karaites do just that?

Imagine that *all* batim machers vanished. All Sofrim vanished. Now, what do
you do when you need new tefillin? And what about the old ones? Who checks
them. If there's a doubt as to their kashrus, do you put them on? Do you say
a bracha?

Extrapolate a generation or two forwards now...

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

Re: Avraham Berliner:
>What is the name of his study on Tefillah? Also, do you know when he >lived?

If you don't read German, I think you want "Ketavim Nivcharim" published by Mosad 
Harav Kook. There are two volumes.  The first contains a section of He'arot 'al 
ha-siddur.

I don't remember when he was born but he was active in the second half of the 19th 
century with RD"Z Hoffman, R' Azriel Hildesheimer etc. and lived until  about 1910 or 
1915.  Try the Encycl. Judaica for more.

What is the tora's view on resource allocation etc....  My point was
> that even if we don't spend a lot of time on these issues because of
> constraints mentioned by other posters, we run the danger of klal
> yisroel(RW,Lw et al. thinking that the tora doesn't speak to these issues.
>
> Kol Tuv,
> Joel Rich
>
Suggested reading:  "Ecology and the Jewish Spirit"
"Where nature and the sacred meet"  - editted and introductions by Ellen
Bernstein -  (Jewish Lights Publishing)
There are other similar books I don't have at hand right now.  Too much
material to introduce on one leg- but certainly we have abundant sources in
our Torah for these pressing concerns.

Good Shabbos-  Mrs. Gila Atwood

>
> On the Chasidic side, touching a member of the
> opposite sex is virtually a Yehoreg VeAl Yavor in any
> and all circumstances.
>
> This attitude is lessened somewhat in the Yeshivishe
> world.  There, all physical contact, platonic or
> certainly otherwise is forbidden but incidental
> contact is usually ignored and there isn't this
> overwhelming effort to avoid contact as there is in
> the Chasidic community.

Having lived for a couple of years in a Chasidic community (Geula/Meah
Shearim), and about ten years in a mostly English speaking Litvish
communities (also in Jerusalem) I'd like to make a few points and
observations.

It's my understanding that the avoidance of incidental contact - (almost to
the level of the harchakot ) is not fear of yehoreg veal yaavor but an
extreme effort in the direction of kedusha and tzniut.  I don't think
incidental contact- say, in passing a drink,  would be considered avizerei
gilui arayos by anyone unless there was a conscious attempt at hana'ah.

Chabad chassidic circles - at least the people I know here, are considerably
more relaxed about the possibility of incidental contact and about
conversation in general between men and women - than the Meah Shearim crowd
and even some of the Litvish crowd. This is  probably because they are often
extroverted types and greatly involved in keruv.

There are also many subtle differences between charedi communities -  take
those in Har Nof and Ezrat Torah for example.  I'm not coming to nitpick but
to clarify to some extent the diversity and complexity of the situation.

Shavua tov.   Mrs. Gila Atwood

See the hakdomo of the Maharal to his sefer Derech Chaim, which starts:
"Ki ner mitzvah vtora or vderech chaim tochacoth mussar".
It is illuminating (pun semi-intended).

Eli Leichtag

Now that the cholent's digested...

Rashi comments on 'VaYashkem Avraham baboker' for the akeidah that this 
demonstrated zerizus. Rashi's kashe seems to be the unusual need to record 
Avraham rising in the morning. The identical phrase 'vayashkem' appears twice 
earlier in the parsha(20:8, 21:14) and Rashi offers no comment - why?  (esp. 
difficult as the second occurance in in conjunction with the girush of 
Yishmael and Rashi could have said there that there is zerizus in being 
mekayem the divrei Navi of Sarah).

Rashi's comment (18:8) that Avraham did not serve the bread Sarah baked 
because she became a niddah is fascinating - b'shlama Avraham perhaps he only 
ate chullin b'taharah, but he wouldn't even feed the bread to who he 
perceived to be idol worshipping nomads!  

-Good week,

-Chaim

(2) Rashi writes 

From RHM:

<< One man's ceiling is another man's floor. There is  nothing wrong with 
enjoying one's wealth. Why  shouldn't I be able to have more if I "make" 
more. Do  I tell my neighbor who just bought a Lexus that his  new car is to 
oppulent?  Is he really violating  Tznius?  Or am I just envious and wish I 
had one too!  What right has anyone to judge what someone's  lifestyle 
requirements should be. We have to allow in this world for differences in 
lifestyle ability.  That's is why the level of Tzedakah differs when one  is 
giving money to a poor man vs. giving money to a poor man who was once rich.  
We are required to restore the formerly rich man to his original status.  The 
Torah is not a socialst manifesto. >>

For those who do not know me, I am not in the parsha of buying a Lexus, and 
therefore I could be subject to the accusation of 'sour grapes' that RHM puts 
much more eloquently.  However, I am going to disagree with R' Harry, for the 
most part.  I do not advocate telling one's neighbor which car he or she 
should be driving, but that seems like a different point than discussing what 
halachic or hashkafic ideals actually are.

It is my opinion that there is felt, within various communities, some degree 
of need to 'keep up with the Joneses' and their level of material 
consumption.  Even if the Joneses acquired their wealth in an absolutely 
ideal manner, and the Joneses are tremendous ba'alei tzedakah, it does not 
appear unreasonable to me that some of their neighbors would want to enjoy 
similar material luxuries.  It also does not appear impossible to me that 
among these neighbors there would be some who would curtail various aspects 
of Avodas Hashem, or perhaps cut a few legal or halachic corners in the 
pursuit of their own wealth.  These are bad things.

Given that we are responsible for the reactions of others to our own actions 
(e.g. the issur of hitting one's adult child because he may hit back), it 
seems clear to me that even the wealthy should limit their patterns of 
consumption, to try to help mitigate the negative ramifications that 
accompany this lifestyle.  (I'm farther from giving psak than I am from a 
Lexus - this is just my opinion.)

Where the lines are to be drawn remains unresolved, but the need for lines 
seems apparent.

Meyer

(As a footnote complying with R' Shaul Weinreb's request, I am an actuary in 
Baltimore, and I should be studying for Monday's exam right now.  Lehitraot.)

In a message dated 10/28/99 9:59:48 PM US Central Standard Time, 
gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

<< Subj:     Anonymity and list demographics
 Date:  10/28/99 9:59:48 PM US Central Standard Time
 From:  gershon.dubin@juno.com (Gershon Dubin)
 Sender:    owner-avodah@aishdas.org
 Reply-to:  avodah@aishdas.org
 To:    avodah@aishdas.org
 
 From: Saul Weinreb <sweinr1@uic.edu>
 Subject: anonimity
 
 I can see both sides of the anonimity issue, however I want to once again
 suggest something that I've already suggested several weeks ago.  In a
 sense, we are all "anonymous" on this list.  Even if we type our names,
 it
 remains unknown to the listmembers, almost any other piece of identifying
 information about us.  I would like to get to know our listmembers a
 little
 better.  How about access on aishdas.org to short bio's on every list
 member?  I would love to get to know the variety of people that
 contribute
 to our group's discussions.
 Shaul Weinreb
    OK,  here goes :    
 
    Please indicate your usual Shabbos/Shabbat head covering:
 
 1. Shtreimel (any color)
 2. Beaver hat (black)
 3. Upturned felt hat (black)
 4. Downturned felt hat (black)
 5. Kipa Sruga (any color)
 
    Please indicate your Internet access:
 
 1.  Email only but not if anyone is looking
 2.  Email only no matter who is looking
 3.  WWW for work only
 4.  WWW and chat rooms
 5.  T-1 line at home
 
    Please indicate your television access:
 
 1.  No TV, radio or newspapers
 2.  No TV
 3.  Only for the news
 4.  We censor what the kids watch
 5.  DVD projection set
 
    Please indicate your preference of newspaper:
 
 1.  Der Yid
 2.  Yoseid (sorry!)
 3.  Yated
 4.  New York Times
 5.  Village Voice
 
    Please indicate your level of secular education:
 
 1.  Fors gred
 2.  High School
 3.  COPE or equivalent
 4.  Bachelor's degree
 5.  Professional (MD/JD/DDS/PhD)
 
    My email client does not allow it,  but these are to be arranged in a
 grid from right to left.  Scores are totaled and graded according to the
 type of criteria immortalized by the Reader's Digest  (x-y Rabid Right
 Wing, a-b Right Wing,  etc.)
 
    I invite all list members to submit their own contributions to the
 questionnaire.  I nominate Micha to score the results;  whereupon anyone
 posting to the list will add their score to their email signature so we
 all kno their bias at the outset.
 
 My apologies to any whom I have unintentionally offended   
 And, seriously,  I think Shaul's suggestion is an excellent one.
 
 Gershon
 
 
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 To: avodah@aishdas.org
 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 00:02:39 -0400
 Subject: Anonymity and list demographics
 Message-ID: <19991029.001251.-1980187.8.gershon.dubin@juno.com>
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 Sender: owner-avodah@aishdas.org
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 Reply-To: avodah@aishdas.org
 
  >>
Since you ask, I supply the following information:

Shabbos Head Covering:  No streimel, beaver hat, or upturned felt hat. I have 
some vintage Cavanaughs and Borsalinos (wide satin band, untapered crown) 
that look good if worn slightly crushed and lopsided, brim way down, a la 
Bogart or Sinatra. They are excellent with bow ties and trench coats. I like 
big worsted kippas that stay on my head without clips or velcro.

Internet and E-Mail:  All the time, for any reason. No one around here cares 
much about what I get or send out.

TV access:  Sports, news, salacious programs about fallen drug-addled 
Hollywood celebrities (see, e.g., E Channel, MTV), fashion shows for 
teenagers. There are deep halachic messages in such shows, if you look very 
carefully for them. Be patient, alert, and enjoy yourself.

Newspaper preference:  Jewish Action, Der Forvarts, The Hockey News, 
Motorcyclist magazine.

Level of secular education:  This classification is vastly overrated. I have 
a J.D. degree. I learned much more about life becoming an Eagle Scout. 

Wing Preference:  I like studying among the RW, almost all of the time. Their 
warmth and sincerity is very appealing to me. I would like to try to become a 
part of their community, Hashem willing. They really don't have to know about 
my TV or my Kawasaki.

David Finch

--- TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 10/29/99 11:30:29 AM Eastern
> Daylight Time, 
> hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:
> 
> << t absolutely nauseates me to refference him but,
> the
>  Anti-Semite pandering, Pat Buchannan, Yimach Shemo,
> is
>  right about one thing. There is a cultural war in
> this
>  country between Hollywood type Humanists who are 
>  moral relativists, basicly agnostic, who have an
>  "anything goes" attitude,  and the Religious Right
> who
>  believe in the absolute morality of the bible. 
>  
>  We need to participate in it. >>
> 
> Why? Hollywood may have values we can't live with,
> but thats nodifferent than 
> those on the religious right in this country.
> 
> Jordan 
> 

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by your response
but if you mean there are certain things about the
Religious Right that we can't live with it depends
what you mean and who in the religeous right you are
reffering to.  They are not a monolithic bunch
regarding their attitude towards the Am HaTorah.

In areas where we have common values and goals, such
as cleaning up the airwaves,it behoves us to join
forces say... in the arena of testifying before
congress. 

In many cases these Evangelicals are not the anti
semite missionaries they used to be.  We just hve to
be careful who we ally ourselves with.

HM


=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

In the rather brief summary of differing attitudes
about physical contact between the sexes I did not
mean for it a definitive or ehaustive description. 
Obviously incidental contact is not considered Yhrog
VeAl Yavor by anyone.  I was just trying to give a
brief description of various attitudes within
different communties.

HM

--- "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
wrote:
> >
> > On the Chasidic side, touching a member of the
> > opposite sex is virtually a Yehoreg VeAl Yavor in
> any
> > and all circumstances.
> >
> > This attitude is lessened somewhat in the
> Yeshivishe
> > world.  There, all physical contact, platonic or
> > certainly otherwise is forbidden but incidental
> > contact is usually ignored and there isn't this
> > overwhelming effort to avoid contact as there is
> in
> > the Chasidic community.
> 
> Having lived for a couple of years in a Chasidic
> community (Geula/Meah
> Shearim), and about ten years in a mostly English
> speaking Litvish
> communities (also in Jerusalem) I'd like to make a
> few points and
> observations.
> 
> It's my understanding that the avoidance of
> incidental contact - (almost to
> the level of the harchakot ) is not fear of yehoreg
> veal yaavor but an
> extreme effort in the direction of kedusha and
> tzniut.  I don't think
> incidental contact- say, in passing a drink,  would
> be considered avizerei
> gilui arayos by anyone unless there was a conscious
> attempt at hana'ah.
> 
> Chabad chassidic circles - at least the people I
> know here, are considerably
> more relaxed about the possibility of incidental
> contact and about
> conversation in general between men and women - than
> the Meah Shearim crowd
> and even some of the Litvish crowd. This is 
> probably because they are often
> extroverted types and greatly involved in keruv.
> 
> There are also many subtle differences between
> charedi communities -  take
> those in Har Nof and Ezrat Torah for example.  I'm
> not coming to nitpick but
> to clarify to some extent the diversity and
> complexity of the situation.
> 
> Shavua tov.   Mrs. Gila Atwood
> 
> 


=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Of course, you are correct. I was confuseld. I have never said b'rikh sh'mei.
I am a yekki and agree with Rav Hamburger.
shavua tov
steve

D & E-H Bannett wrote:

>
> I think you switched Berikh Shemei with the Av Harahamim said by Ashkenazim
> before mussaf on Shabbat.
>
> Berikh Shemei was not said at all in most Yekke shuls.  Av Harahamim was said
> before Shavuot because it was composed in memory of those killed by the crusaders
> of the first crusade as they passed through Germany in the weeks before Shavuot
> (1096?). Others began to say it during Sefirat Ha-omer and then all year (when there
> was no excuse to skip it) but the German Jews kept their original minhag.
>
> And before someone posts that Berikh Shemei appears in Seligman Baer's Siddur
> Avodat Yisrael, I'll point out in advance that he notes that some people say it but that
> it doesn't appear in any old siddurim.  He also makes no  comments on it in his
> perush.  Even Reb Moshe Feinstein who was certainly not a yekke comments in Igrot
> Moshe that it does not appear in any rishonim and so is optional (I'll find it if asked)
>
> A good source for Yekke custom is Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz by a Rav Hamburger.
> Interestingly, he manages to prove that every Yekki nusach and minhag is the correct
> one with the strongest basis and very much preferable to what the rest of us do or
> say. After that sentence, I suppose I needn't mention that I am not a Yekke.
>
> biv'rakha,
>
> David

Does anyone know if a secons volume of the SMA was ever published?

Thanks,
YGB

Much of what Rabbi Lapin considers relgious Judaism seems to be very 
opposed to how I was brought up.  I recently a read a review of his book 
(It was on the American Spectator web site and written by the son of 
friends).  He seems to be pusing for making America and Xtian country and 
how Xtianity has been good for the Jews.   In the last Republican 
Convention he gave a nominating speech for Pat Buchanan.

While some of the views of the Xtian right are in line with Jewish views, 
there are many that are not.


Harry J. Weiss
hjweiss@netcom.com

On 29 Oct 99, at 11:31, harry maryles wrote:

> Obviously there have to ultimately be some limits as
> to how one enjoys his wealth.  I suppose we can all
> point to cases of conspicuos consumption. ( I recently
> attended an Orthodox wedding that I assure everyone
> cost in excess of a half million dollars - I am not
> exaggerating.) But, who is going to draw the line. 
> There was a time when indoor plumbing was considered a
> luxury.  Do we need to bring outhouses back so we can
> be more Tznius about material goods?

The previous Gerrer Rebbe had a very simple line. Whatever money 
you spent on a Simcha, you had to donate an equivalent amount to 
Tzedaka. 

I'm not necessarily advocating that approach, but it does give food 
for thought.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 30 Oct 99, at 20:27, Akiva Atwood wrote:

> > As I pointed out several times Rav Schach in his published letters
> > and derashot attacks American charedim for not being "extremist"
> > enough (that is not his terminology) He complains that they are
> > too influenced by American society and not truly Jewish.
> >
> 
> Keep n mind that Rav Schach was speaking/writing *to his talmidim*. These
> talks/letters were not meant for general consumption, but to strengthen his
> talmidim in the face of the inflow of "Americanisms" here in Israel, and the
> attraction that America holds for so many people here (in a gashmius
> manner).

That's all fine and well, except that Rav Schach's talmidim seem to 
have interpreted the message as "regard all AMERICANS, 
regardless of appearances, with suspicion." 

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

In a message dated 10/30/99 9:08:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
C1A1Brown@aol.com writes:

>  Now that the cholent's digested...

When the Shinover Rov was a child he was once served Kashe for a meal, his 
father the Divrei Chayim asked him "whats the Teirutz?" he responded that 
"Ein Masichin Bs'udah" after he finished his father asked again "nu what's 
the answer?" to which he responded "Yetzt Iz Kein Kashe Nishta"...

>  
>  Rashi comments on 'VaYashkem Avraham baboker' for the akeidah that this 
>  demonstrated zerizus. Rashi's kashe seems to be the unusual need to record 
>  Avraham rising in the morning. The identical phrase 'vayashkem' appears 
> twice 
>  earlier in the parsha(20:8, 21:14) and Rashi offers no comment - why?  
(esp. 
> 
>  difficult as the second occurance in in conjunction with the girush of 
>  Yishmael and Rashi could have said there that there is zerizus in being 
>  mekayem the divrei Navi of Sarah).

With regard to 20:8 there Bpashtus Avimelech had a dream in which he was 
threatened with death, he got up right away. However another point of 
question is 19:27 (see Tos. Psochim 4a), but there Bpashtus there was no 
Breiroh since "Kmoi Hashachr Oloh... (19:15).

With regards to 21:14, there he had a Tzeevui of "Goreish" so obviously he 
had to fulfill it at the earliest possibility, however by the Akeidoh that 
the Donkey still needed to be prepared the wood still had to be split, he 
could have rested a bit longer while his slaves will do that, since he got up 
himself and prepared the donkey himself it is understood that this was a 
Ziruz Bmitzvah (not only the actual going but the preparing), this is another 
explanation to Tos. question (Psochim 4a and other places) how do we know 
only Mitzafroh and not earlier since he didn't get up earlier to prepare the 
donkey and split the wood.

>  
>  Rashi's comment (18:8) that Avraham did not serve the bread Sarah baked 
>  because she became a niddah is fascinating - b'shlama Avraham perhaps he 
> only 
>  ate chullin b'taharah, but he wouldn't even feed the bread to who he 
>  perceived to be idol worshipping nomads!  

See the Eitz Yosef (on the Ein Yaakov) B"M 87a. (his Pshat is further 
reinforced by the Baal Haturim on 18:5), also see Ramban Parshas Tazria how a 
Niddah was considered, this may explain why Rashi doesn't add that Avrohom 
was Oichel Chulin Btaharoh.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

********************


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