Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 073

Wednesday, October 27 1999

• [Fwd: Fwd: Check out The Most Beautiful Flower] (fwd)
• Re: Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis
• kidra chaysa
• Avodah 57 Kri u'Ketiv
• Extradition/Mesirah
• Re: Bereshis 18:4
• Brich Shmmeh... Should we say it?
• Re: Ortho activists?
• Re: Extradition/Mesirah
• Re: Anonymity of RW
• EY vs. America
• Orthodox Activists
• Re: EY vs. America
• Re: Pepsi Generation?
• Re: Anonymity of RW
• Re: Pepsi Generation?
• Nuclear Proliferation -- The Torah view
• Re: Extradition/Mesirah
• position on nuclear arms

 <A HREF="http://www.whoohoo.net/flower/">Click here: The Most Beautiful 
Flower</A> 

> The move, according to Orthodox authorities, is nothing short of
> revolutionary. While Reform and Conservative women rabbis have made
> halachic rulings for many years, “this is the first time in history
> that [Orthodox] women have been authorized [by Orthodox rabbis] to
> answer questions in Jewish law,” according to Rabbanit Emunah Henkin,
> the director of Nishmat and the driving force behind the initiative.
> “This is quite remarkable.”
> 

It certainly makes me doubt the credibility of an article if they can't
even get the name of the person correct. Rabbanit Henkin's name is
Chana, not Emunah.
Elana Schachter
Jerusalem

You are right, I wrote too quickly. Sorry. I wasn't going to continue this
but I believe SAR mentions that one can start cooking just before Barchu,
which is the moment that the community is m'kabel Shabbos according to SAR
[not mizmor shir], it doesn't have to be shkiah.

> From: "Noah Witty" <nwitty@ix.netcom.com>
> 
> No, no!  I believe that JHoexter's comment below is misleading.  It makes no
> difference whether it's Yom Tov Sheni or Rishon.  On yt-erev shabbos it
> *all* has to be cooked, at least to ma-achal ben drusa-ee, before shekiah
> plus time to eat some of it.  See MA(?) on SA in the appropriate siman.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 03:37:41 +0200 (IST)
From: Mordecai Kornfeld <kornfeld@netvision.net.il>
To: millerr@mail.biu.ac.il, daf-discuss@jencom.com, nzion@dafyomi.co.il,
     nzion@galanet.net, avisfeld@netvision.net.il, DPKINZ@aol.com,
     rjhendel@juno.com
Subject: Re: Megilah 025b: Kri u'Ketiv

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Re: Megilah 025b: Kri u'Ketiv

Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@juno.com> via Reuven Miller 
<millerr@mail.biu.ac.il> wrote:

Just a quick answer to [what D.A.F. posted in answer to] Reuven Miller's 
posting on Kri Ktiv

As I already indicated there is an explicit Minchat shai which goes
thru all the alleged verses that Chazal changed and shows this
is not the case.

If someone really wants the reference I will look it up and
post it

Russell
-------------------------------
Reuven and Russell,

Thanks for the note. You are probably referring to the Minchas Shai on the 
Pasuk in Devarim that the Gemara here (Megilah 25b) discusses, 
Yishgalenah/Yishkavenah (Devarim 28:30). There he cites a Teshuvas ha'Rashba 
who asks how can the Shaliach Tzibur read a different word than is written in 
the Pasuk; it is like reading it Ba'al Peh! He answers that the Kri/Ksiv is 
Halachah l'Moshe mi'Sinai. (I think the Minchas Shai also discusses this in 
his Introduction, arguing vehemently with some Teshuvas ha'Geonim, although I 
could not find it offhand.)

The Rashba's source for not reading Ba'al Peh is probably the Gemara in 
Temurah 14b and elsewhere that one may not say over Devarim she'Bichtav by 
heart. If so, the argument ought to apply to Tanach as well; it cannot be 
read (at least b'Tzibur) by heart. (As far as the words of the prophets are 
concerned, as we wrote in the last message, Halachah l'*Moshe* cannot be 
taken literally. Rather, the Kri and Ksiv must have been part of the original 
Nevu'ah of the particular Navi who wrote that Sefer.) However there is one 
opinion in the Rishonim that permits reading Nevi'im and Kesuvim by heart 
(Tosfos ibid. -- we discussed this at length in the Insights to the Daf there 
and in Yoma 68:2, which can be accessed from our archives at 
http://www.dafyomi.co.il or by email request), in which case the Rashba's 
argument will not apply to Nach.

The Radak in II Shmuel 15:21 seems to have a very radical opinion about Kri 
u'Ksiv. He writes there that after the destruction of the first Temple, the 
most reliable manuscripts were lost or forgotten, and we were left with 
numerous conflicting manuscripts. Anshei Kneses ha'Gedolah chose the correct 
Girsa based on Rov etc., and when they were not certain that they were right, 
they left in *both* versions: one as a Kri and the other as a Ksiv (and 
without Nekudos).

However, he seems to be referring only to those instances in which the 
meaning of the Kri and the Ksiv is identical (such as "Hem" and "Hemah" -- 
see more expclicitly in Radak II Shmuel 21:9), and perhaps only to those 
cases which are not mentioned in Nedarim 37b as "Halachah l'Moshe mi'Sinai." 
In addition, he may mean to propose this only for the Kri and Ksiv in Nach, 
but not in the Chumash. (However, it is not at all clear why he had to invent 
this means for explaining the Kri u'Ksiv in Nach, if he knew that the Chumash 
and even the Nach had similar cases of Kri and Ksiv that did *not* come about 
in such a manner but were Halachah l'Moshe mi'Sinai as the Gemara stated in 
Nedarim 37b.)

Take care, Mordecai

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Mordecai Kornfeld        |  kornfeld@dafyomi.co.il |Tel(IL):02-652-2633
P.O.B. 43087             |kornfeld@netvision.net.il|Off(IL):02-651-5004
Har Nof, Jerusalem,ISRAEL|   kornfeld@jencom.com   |Fax(US):603-7375728

--- "Clark, Eli" <clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM> wrote:

> Personally, I have
> spoken -- and am writing
> -- on the issue of extradition, which of course
> raises the issue of Mesirah

Fascinating subject. I would love to hear your input
on it, especially in light of the recent controversy
in Scheinbeim case.

HM

=====

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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
I received the following answer from Rav Avigdor Bonchek the author of
"Whats Bothering Rashi"


 The
simple explanation is that Rashi wants us to know that they were under a
tree and not under some wooden roof. The big question (not usually asked )
is what difference does it make, if they were under  a tree or under a
wooden roof. My thought is that there is a difference. The Torah is telling
us Abraham's chesed. This included not only all the food he gave them but
also his desire not to inconvenience them, by "forcing" them to come to him,
to his tent or his wooden shelter. remember these "people" were just passing
thru, so stopping off would take up less time than stepping in. He went to
them, (and not  they to him)  as the Torah stresses later (18:8) "He stood
by them under the tree."


Question: The Torah says In G-d's name (18:21) "I will go down and see..."
Did G-d go down and see? If he said He would, did He raelly go down? If He
did, where does it say?

Catchy Title but nothing to do with my post.  However
if any one would like to answer and give sources as to
why or why not to include it in the liturgy, please
do. It could lead to a very interesting discussion.
Meanwhile back at the ranch...


--- Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> : You have here an expression of a personal dream of
> my
> : own: The concept of mutual respect by people with
> : differing points of view.
> : 
> : But this just ain't gonna happen! ..."Holier than
> : thou" Rules!
> : 
> : You're right there should be no labels. We should
> all
> : have the right to follow different Hashkafos
> without
> : being labeled negatively. But this is precisely
> what
> : happens all the time.  Perhaps I am somewhat
> biased
> : but I generally find that it's the Right acting
> : "holier than Thou" and dissing their fellow Jew. 
> 
> You do realize the second half of your third
> paragraph (as well as the
> remainder of your post) is an example of the very
> thing you complain about
> in the first two paragraphs.
> 
> It certainly didn't belong on Avodah. I'm not going
> to spend time running a
> "let's bash the opposition" list. Please help me
> reintroduce our more usual
> set of topics to the agenda. Start a new thread.

Perhaps you're right. But I can't help the way I feel
and after a "lifetime" of observing it, I feel very
strongly about it.

As for the Yoetzet thread..  if I hear or see that
word one more time I'm going to scream!

HM


=====

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I am known to use this argument myself :-).

Sometimes, however, it rings false even to me.

We do not seem to be making all thatmuch headway internally that we can be
sure we are not falling victim to complacency, rather than focus.

Besides, l'havdil, the Pope probably has enough to be concerned with re
internal Catholic problems, yet he still finds time to be a moral
(l'shitaso) voice on the world scene.

Tzarich Iyun.

On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Micha Berger wrote:

> I think we haven't been active on subjects like nuclear proliferation or
> the ecology, or even on the non-Jewish homeless because of triage. 
> 
> As O Jews we not only have to deal with issues that face the world at
> large and the Jewish community as a whole, we also have to deal with
> issues that face our O community in particular. 
> 
> We don't have the manpower to fully solve our own problems, never mind
> the more general ones. So, we need to take a triage approach. 
> 
> We're 0.025% of the world population, and 30% of the *affiliated* Jewish
> population. The impact of our neglecting the world's problems is minimal
> -- many other people will pick up the slack. We need to work on Jewish
> problems because we're a large part of the community that will, and
> nearly the entire community that will solve many of these problems in
> the same way we would.  However, if we don't work on O specific issues,
> we're sunk. 
> 
> So yes, that's going to be reflected in what we tend to be active. 
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

There is a tape on the topic by guess who in the Brandman Tape Library...

On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, harry maryles wrote:

> 
> 
> --- "Clark, Eli" <clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM> wrote:
> 
> > Personally, I have
> > spoken -- and am writing
> > -- on the issue of extradition, which of course
> > raises the issue of Mesirah
> 
> Fascinating subject. I would love to hear your input
> on it, especially in light of the recent controversy
> in Scheinbeim case.
> 
> HM
> 
> =====
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, David Herskovic wrote:

> I noticed that all the anonymous postings in the yoatsot debate were
> right wing orientated. This is not a phenomenon exclusive to Avodah; 

Except one.

> open any chareidi newspaper and the letter pages are full of initials
> not to mention the pseudonyms of some of the contributors. 
> 
> Is it a fear to think? to step out of line? or by voicing an opinion do
> you run the risk of being labelled an apikoyres? 
> 

This is a valid point, to be sure.

Indeed, the reason I stopped writing in the Yated, despite the high degree
of editorial freedom they allowed (I wrote two feature essays), is because
I noticed I was one of the only people willing to write not under
pseudonym.

I do not know why the reticence. It may well be that some RWingers are
afraid of being labeled apikorsim or harming their kids' shidduchim. It
may be that so many of the essays are written by relatively few people
that it gives the illusion of a larger number of writers. 

Some Roshei Yeshiva or Rabbonim may feel it is not b'kovodik to write
essays in magazines or newspapers.

It is also a long standing tradition in the Yiddish and Hebrew Eastern
European press, even secular, to write under nom de plumes, perhaps (dan
l'kaf zechus) to draw attention awy from the writer and to the concept.

However, be that as it may, that is the way it is.

Normally, as RDG correctly critiques, I too have an aversion to anonymous
posts. I felt, however, that since the phenomenon is what it is and
RWingers will not identify themselves publicly, that Avodah would not get
the "extreme" RW perspective from its lurkers, in the Yo'atzot issue,
unless I was willing to forward their remarks anonymously. It is for this
reason that on these occasions I forwarded the anonymous material.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

One of Mrs. Atwood's posts this morning reminded me of a phenomenon I wish
to discuss, the incapacity of the average American to make aliya and find
a societal groupng to his liking.

To whit: When I graduated Chorev elementary school in 1975, my classmates
and I, indicative of our varied backgrounds, scattered across the range of
high schools from "Tichon Ironi Dati"'s to "Yeshivos Ketanos" and
everyrthing in between (I myself going on to Netiv Meir).

When I returned after two years in NY to Sha'alvim in 1978, Sha'alvim had
(the Hesder compotent) a student body that also ranged the gamut from Kol
Torah Yeshiva Ketana alumni to Yeshivot Bnei Akiva alumni and everything
in between.

To the best of my understanding, these phenomena no longer occur (it is
not a coincedence, in retrospect, that these institutions were PAI
affiliated).

(BTE, 1978 saw the last influx ofa large number of "Yishuvnikim" to
Sha'alvim - I was in shiur with many of them. The Yeshiva Ketana types had
stopped coming one or two years before. 1978 was also the year that Hesder
went from 12 to 15 mos. I do not know if the two phenomena are related.

B'kitzur, the polarization is horrendous. Whatever the chesronos in
chinuch in the USA, and they are many (I think schools are no longer
educational but sociological training grounds), that intense polarization
which diminishes educational and sociological choice is no way at all
similar here. Indeed, I have heard local Telzers (about as RW as you can
imagine) say they could not make aliya because of the extremist education
thaey would need submit their children to there.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

I just wanted to add an interesting note to this discussion.  Although it
is our general perception that Orthodox Jews are not heavily involved in
causes other than Othodox causes, I have found a surprising statistic in an
article by Jonathan Rosenbloom in the Jerusalem Post, October 25, 1999.  He
quotes a 1999 study of the charitable giving of American Jews, by political
scientist Raymond Legge. According to his study, "Orthodox Jews were even
twice as likely as Reform Jews to contribute over $5,000 to a secular
charity."
In addition, IMHO I agree with R' Eli Clark that not knowing what to do
about the problem is not a good excuse for being shev veal taaseh.  I think
that the triage explanation is a better one.
Shaul Weinreb

--- "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:

> B'kitzur, the polarization is horrendous. Whatever
> the chesronos in
> chinuch in the USA, and they are many (I think
> schools are no longer
> educational but sociological training grounds), that
> intense polarization
> which diminishes educational and sociological choice
> is no way at all
> similar here. Indeed, I have heard local Telzers
> (about as RW as you can
> imagine) say they could not make aliya because of
> the extremist education
> thaey would need submit their children to there.

We've had this discussion before.  My son is an
Avreich in Yeshivas Mir and I am very worried about my
Israeli grandchildren's education. After making Aliya,
my very idealistic  nephew's biggest dissapointment
was the Israeli educational system.  Another nephew
who also made Aliya and is big time Bnei Akiva'nik
couldn't wait to come back to NY for a two year work
project so his kids could attend the Salanter Academy.


The Telsher Hashkafa would be considered LW in EY. 
Why are there such extremes in EY, both in Kedusha
and, leHavdil, in Tumah?

HM


=====

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"Daniel B. Schwartz" wrote:

> A date to which a boy brings his tefilin (to put on the next morning)
> vehameivin yavin

Were we really so innocent?

In a message dated 10/27/99 7:48:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

<< 
 Normally, as RDG correctly critiques, I too have an aversion to anonymous
 posts. I felt, however, that since the phenomenon is what it is and
 RWingers will not identify themselves publicly, that Avodah would not get
 the "extreme" RW perspective from its lurkers, in the Yo'atzot issue,
 unless I was willing to forward their remarks anonymously. It is for this
 reason that on these occasions I forwarded the anonymous material.
 
 YGB
  >>
Perhaps you could ask your lurkers to comment on the anonymity issue 
(anonymously if necessary)
Kol Tuv
Joel Rich

"Daniel B. Schwartz" wrote:

> A date to which a boy brings his tefilin (to put on the next morning)
> vehameivin yavin

Were we really so innocent?

Why aren't we involved in these global issues?  

While some of it has to do with our limited time and the many demands on it, 
I think that there is a more fundamental issue:  I am very sorry to say that 
to a large degree, we don't care about the larger world.  Consider:  We do 
not daven for anyone except for ourselves (fellow Jews)?    Even the Tefillah 
for the Government is only in regard as it effects our own welfare.  Visiting 
the sick?  Only because of darkei shalom or mipnei eivah.  V'ahavtah 
l'reiachah kamocha is le'reiachah b'Torah u-ve'mitzvos.  Consider Orach 
Chayyim 576:3.  Fasting for aku"m and chazeirim during a plague only because 
of the effect it may ultimately have on Jews.   Gezel Aku"m, Hafka'as 
halva'ah, hashavas aveidah...  I am not, chas ve'shalom, questioning the 
Halachos.  I am only considering the impact they may have on our 
sensitivities and attitudes.

Of course, this is not the only attitude, although, I believe, it is the 
predominant one.  In Ashrei, for example, states "God is good to all and His 
compassion is on all His creations."  "He opens His hands and satisfies every 
living thing with favor."  The Mishnah in Avos: chaviv ADAM she-nivra 
be'tzelem-- universal, but then again:  atem k'ruyim adam...

The quietist approach suggested-- "We all believe that human history is 
advancing toward a certain point and that our history is governed by the 
Ribbono shel olam.  That being the case, some may be willing to dismiss as 
unlikely the possibility that Hashem would permit us to accidentally blow 
ourselves up"-- is not the philosophy of bechirah and human responsibility.  
A proper measure of hishtadlus, combined with a proper measure of bitachon-- 
is the order of the day.

What are we doing in our educational institutions, homes and communities that 
breeds the feeling that we are not citizens of the world and not responsible 
to participate in ensuring its welfare and survival?  And if we are concerned 
about eivah, what impact does our non-participation have on our status and 
influence in the general community.  Is part of it related to the 
over-identification of Reform Judaism-- "ProJudaism-- with issues of social 
justice, the environment, etc.?  (Much llike the abandonment of the study of 
Tanakh becuase the maskilim appropriated it...)

Perhaps I've overstated the case, but the point, nevertheless, is valid.

Mark Dratch
 

In a message dated 10/27/99 7:43:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

> There is a tape on the topic by guess who in the Brandman Tape Library...

Maybe Toiv Ayin Hu Yevoiroch, and share it here, this request is also 
directed to REC.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:37:00 -0400
> From: "Clark, Eli" <clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM>
> Subject: Nuclear Proliferation -- The Torah view
> 
> RYGB writes:
> 
> >Were we to profess to really know
> >what should be done about nuclear arms proliferation, I think we 
> would be>mechuyav to be involved. I think we do not, and therefore are
not.
> 
> I think there is more.  Be-makom safek nefashot, is the rational 
> choice to simply be shev ve-al ta`aseh?
> 
> I suspect that, beyond the traditional quietism of the frum 
> community, the reluctance to address the nuclear proliferation may have
a basis in Torah hashkafa.    We all believe that human history is
advancing 

<snip>

> Yet, the halakhic community tends to absent itself from many policy
> debates, especially in America.
	I think it is simply a matter of choosing one's battles.  

	Any Jewish organization such as the Agudah (using the example which was
mentioned)  has limited funds.  Deciding where it should put that money: 
 into a fight for school vouchers,  a fight against discrimination
against Shabbos observers,  kosher kitchens on college campuses,  etc.
etc. or nuclear proliferation or tzaar baalei chaim in veal farming,  or
capital punishment,   etc., the choice, I think, is clear.  

	That is not to say we as a community should not have a position, 
reasoned/discussed/articulated/written about,  on any such topic,  but
that resources need to be allocated where others will not fight our
fights for us.

Gershon  

********************


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