Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 072

Wednesday, October 27 1999

• Nuclear Proliferation -- The Torah view
• Re: Avodah V4 #68
• Administrivia: Public Apology
• Re: Nuclear Proliferation -- The Torah view
• Re: Ortho activists?
• Re: Pepsi Generation?
• kidra chaysa
• Re: Ortho activists?
• Re: Pepsi Generation?
• RE: Pepsi Generation?
• Achdus
• Re: Pepsi Generation?
• Headquarters
• Anonymity of RW
• Re: Bnei Torah and Tolerance
• Eli Turkel's Post on Daat Torah

RYGB writes:

>Were we to profess to really know
>what should be done about nuclear arms proliferation, I think we would be
>mechuyav to be involved. I think we do not, and therefore are not.

I think there is more.  Be-makom safek nefashot, is the rational choice
to simply be shev ve-al ta`aseh?

I suspect that, beyond the traditional quietism of the frum community,
the reluctance to address the nuclear proliferation may have a basis in
Torah hashkafa.    We all believe that human history is advancing toward
a certain point and that our history is governed by the Ribbono shel
olam.  That being the case, some may be willing to dismiss as unlikely
the possibility that Hashem would permit us to accidentally blow
ourselves up.

Yet, the halakhic community tends to absent itself from many policy
debates, especially in America.  For my part, I would be pleased to see
frum people take the lead on the tza'ar ba'alei hayyyim issues related
to the production of veal.  I know that Agudah maintains an office in
Washington DC where it lobbies on various issues, school vouchers,
abortion, right-to-die.  The need for a Torah perspective on government
policy is even greater in Israel, but beyond the major issue of
territorial compromise and the local issue of hillul Shabbat, not too
many policies are given attention.  (Though I recall that Meimad's
platform did mention this.)  Personally, I have spoken -- and am writing
-- on the issue of extradition, which of course raises the issue of
mesirah.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

: You have here an expression of a personal dream of my
: own: The concept of mutual respect by people with
: differing points of view.
: 
: But this just ain't gonna happen! ..."Holier than
: thou" Rules!
: 
: You're right there should be no labels. We should all
: have the right to follow different Hashkafos without
: being labeled negatively. But this is precisely what
: happens all the time.  Perhaps I am somewhat biased
: but I generally find that it's the Right acting
: "holier than Thou" and dissing their fellow Jew. 

You do realize the second half of your third paragraph (as well as the
remainder of your post) is an example of the very thing you complain about
in the first two paragraphs.

It certainly didn't belong on Avodah. I'm not going to spend time running a
"let's bash the opposition" list. Please help me reintroduce our more usual
set of topics to the agenda. Start a new thread.

I also might point out that the yoetzet debate devolved into this comparison.
As though the local MO contingent thinks that attacking the RW defends the
yoetzet program? Why did we grab on this topic? I blame a lack of faith
amongst MO in their own ideals -- the same thing I blame the Yated article on.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 27-Oct-99: Revi'i, Vayera
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 59b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 1

My apologies to Harry for sending that last email to the list.

Since I accidentally broached the subject in public, shoin genuck, no? I miss
our old topic matter, metahalachah, machshavah, hashkafah and halachah. We've
stated our positions on yoatzot, on the various "them"s within our community,
and other such arguments ad nauseum already.

I'd love to hear PRODUCTIVE suggestions for promoting achdus. Great, someone
suggested rotating shuls -- how would you sell people on the idea? Someone else
suggested a cross-subcommunity venue -- a periodical, an organization? Anyone
willing to take up the gauntlet to actually start the ball rolling on it?

I've been enjoying our discussions of the parashah lately. They've been drowning
in the sheer volume of the swamp, though.

In short: Unless someone lets the other guy have the last word, there will
never be a last word.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 27-Oct-99: Revi'i, Vayera
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 59b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 1

>> Yet, the halakhic community tends to absent itself from many policy 
debates, especially in America.  For my part, I would be pleased to see 
frum people take the lead on the tza'ar ba'alei hayyyim issues related to 
the production of veal.  I know that Agudah maintains an office in 
Washington DC where it lobbies on various issues, school vouchers, 
abortion, right-to-die.  The need for a Torah perspective on government 
policy is even greater in Israel, but beyond the major issue of 
territorial compromise and the local issue of hillul Shabbat, not too 
many policies are given attention.  (Though I recall that Meimad's 
platform did mention this.)  Personally, I have spoken -- and am writing 
-- on the issue of extradition, which of course raises the issue of 
mesirah.
Kol tuv,
Eli Clark<<

My guess is the Torah community takes up the cudgels "bemokom sh'ein ish".  IOW,
if the cudgels would be "naaseh al yedei acheirim", then Torah world can sit 
back and say, we can stay passive because there are already outspoken critics of
policy X;

However, when Policy X is harmful and it lacks opposition, the Torah community 
may feel compelled to mobilize on its own behalf.

I'm not so much advocting this position as I am explaining it.

Rich Wolpoe

I think we haven't been active on subjects like nuclear proliferation or
the ecology, or even on the non-Jewish homeless because of triage.

As O Jews we not only have to deal with issues that face the world at large
and the Jewish community as a whole, we also have to deal with issues that
face our O community in particular.

We don't have the manpower to fully solve our own problems, never mind the
more general ones. So, we need to take a triage approach.

We're 0.025% of the world population, and 30% of the *affiliated* Jewish
population. The impact of our neglecting the world's problems is minimal --
many other people will pick up the slack. We need to work on Jewish problems
because we're a large part of the community that will, and nearly the entire
community that will solve many of these problems in the same way we would.
However, if we don't work on O specific issues, we're sunk.

So yes, that's going to be reflected in what we tend to be active.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 27-Oct-99: Revi'i, Vayera
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 59b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 1

In message , harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com> writes
>> and
>> people who proclaim high regard for tznius speak,
>> even on this list, in a
>> fashion that would have made their grandmothers
>> cringe -- yet because of
>> tznius they don't want to speak to a Rov about their
>> questions. What a
>> disgraceful distortion of tznius.
>
>Here the poster is comparing apples and oranges. What
>some of us may be guilty of when speaking in the
>relative anonymity of this list, has absolutely
>nothing to do with how some sincere but delicate and
>sensitive women in the community of Torah Jewery may
>feel about about talking about such private matters
>with a male posek.
>

Thanks R' Harry, but you don't need to defend me.  As the only woman who
has been prepared to put her head above the parapet and be reasonably
explicit on this issue (all the others have been men speaking on behalf
of their wives) it is clearly me he is referring to.  And I didn't do so
lightly.  But men explaining their wives feelings can only go so far,
and knowing that if I didn't it was unlikely that any other woman would,
sometimes one needs to push oneself further than one otherwise might.
Still it is going to be a relief over the next couple of days (my firm
is having some training away days tomorrow and Friday in a hotel out of
town) and while it is a hassle to be arranging my "airline meals" and
constantly being different it is also in many ways a relief to be among
people who are capable of genuinely accepting that people are different
and respecting them for what they are not to mention going out of their
way to ensure that their differing needs are met. 


>HM

Kind Regards

Chana

-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

No, no!  I believe that JHoexter's comment below is misleading.  It makes no
difference whether it's Yom Tov Sheni or Rishon.  On yt-erev shabbos it
*all* has to be cooked, at least to ma-achal ben drusa-ee, before shekiah
plus time to eat some of it.  See MA(?) on SA in the appropriate siman.
Any seconds on the above?
NW

Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:13:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Josh Hoexter <hoexter@wam.umd.edu>
Subject: Re: kidra chaysa

> From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
> Rav Henkin z"l says unequivocally, both in his sefer (sorry no cite) and
> in the ET luach,  not to rely on this bizman hazeh.

Why?

I was taught that it is mutar to put up cholent right before shkiah if
there is a piece of raw meat in the pot, and have seen it done in several
homes. OC 253-4, also SAR and MB. Of course the only catch is when YT
Rishon is on Friday.

Josh

In a message dated 10/27/99 3:59:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< 
 We don't have the manpower to fully solve our own problems, never mind the
 more general ones. So, we need to take a triage approach.
 
 We're 0.025% of the world population, and 30% of the *affiliated* Jewish
 population. The impact of our neglecting the world's problems is minimal --
 many other people will pick up the slack. We need to work on Jewish problems
 because we're a large part of the community that will, and nearly the entire
 community that will solve many of these problems in the same way we would.
 However, if we don't work on O specific issues, we're sunk.
  >>
yet there are 2 purposes in tochacha - one to create change, the other to 
show our inability to morally accept the status quo.  Not at least stating 
our position on these issues has, in my opinion, a negative impact on us.

Kol Tuv
Joel Rich

What is the meaning of "tefillin dates."??

Akiva Atwood wrote:

> > The Halochos of Negia are very complex and vary from
> > one constituancy to another.
>
> Actually, the halachos are fairly simple -- it's the outright ignoring of
> halacha that's the major problem here, and that can lead to pre-maritial
> sexual relations ("tefillin dates").
>
> Akiva

>
> What is the meaning of "tefillin dates."??
>

A date where the guy brings his t'fillin along (so he'll have them in the
morning).

(in other words, he expects to spend the night with his date).

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

Micha: 
>>Great, someone suggested rotating shuls -- how would you sell people on the 
idea? Someone else suggested a cross-subcommunity venue -- a periodical, an 
organization? Anyone willing to take up the gauntlet to actually start the ball 
rolling on it?<<

When I studied for Semicha we had a rabbinic practicum.  We were asked to attend
or witness the following:
Shechita or nikkur
Mikva (there was a tour of the West Side Mikva) 
Get or chalitzo 
Kiddushin
Taharo
etc.

I only wish I had done more.  I wish we had been encouraged to see 
Matzo baking
inspecting for bugs:
how to string an eiruv together
etc.

To me, an hour of 2 in the field was worth hundreds of hours in the Beis 
Medrash.  (not everyone is the same of course!)

When I attended a YU Torah Leadership Seminar when I was just 13 or so in 
Monsey, one of our leaders took us to a side trip to visit New Square.  It was a
reall "eye" opener.  I knew little of chassidishe lifestyle but I did point out 
to my friends - look at the houses and see what's missing?  After a moment I 
told them: There are no TV antennae in this whole town!

Maybe NCSY could start a summer program of sepnding a week or so in each type of
venue.  They used to (or still do) have a month in Yeshiva program.  it might be
worthwhile to add visits to Chassisihe kehillos; out-of-town smaller 
communites,etc.

Certainly, YU could encourage a practicum wherein over the course of a year or 2
talmidim get to experience the flavors of different communities.

Some of the RW Yeshivos had done "seed" programs in out-of-town MO shuls.  
Perhaps they should add visiting day schools in small towns and maybe spending a
shabbos in a chassdishe community.  

Maybe the OU could spark this program, call it an Achdus program...

Rich Wolpoe

A date to which a boy brings his tefilin (to put on the next morning)
vehameivin yavin
DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Katz <katzco@sprintmail.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: Pepsi Generation?


> What is the meaning of "tefillin dates."??
>
> Akiva Atwood wrote:
>
> > > The Halochos of Negia are very complex and vary from
> > > one constituancy to another.
> >
> > Actually, the halachos are fairly simple -- it's the outright ignoring
of
> > halacha that's the major problem here, and that can lead to pre-maritial
> > sexual relations ("tefillin dates").
> >
> > Akiva
>
>
>
>
>

> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:23:27 +0200 (IST)
> From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
> Subject: Rav Schacter

<snip>

> > he would never get the approval of Headquarters (as he
> > pu it) i.e. Lakewood.  He would be in danger of losing
> > the Lakewood charter, so to speak.  The fear was that
> > certain members of Agudah would be very upset.  

<snip>
 
> I thought we agreed not to further the RW-LW debate.
> Specifically, I thought Rav Schachter had good relations with
> most of the Agudah.

<snip>

> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 04:19:54 -0700 (PDT)
> From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Rav Schacter

<snip>

> > It was not my intent to further that debate but to
> move Agudah into a more tolerant attitude. My above
> quoted story is true.  R. Francis (RW) himself
> respects R. Schachter.  It is Agudah specificly that
> doesn't.
	Who is "Headquarters"-  Lakewood or Agudah.  Or have they merged when I
wasn't looking?

Gershon

I noticed that all the anonymous postings in the yoatsot debate were
right wing orientated. This is not a phenomenon exclusive to Avodah;
open any chareidi newspaper and the letter pages are full of initials
not to mention the pseudonyms of some of the contributors.

Is it a fear to think? to step out of line? or by voicing an opinion do
you run the risk of being labelled an apikoyres?

Dovid Herskovic


PS My spell checker when confronted with chareidi suggested charade.
Must've been exposed to Avodah.

--- "Mrs. Gila Atwood" <gatwood@netvision.net.il>
wrote:

> You may laugh, but denim
> is officially off limits
> for girls and women in charedi circles in Jerusalem.
>  Why? Because it's
> "rechovi"- a "street fashion". In other words, denim
> represents street
> culture,  "hanging out" and mixing with guys before
> marriage, etc etc etc.


> At the root there's more fear  than hatred and
> condemnation in the RW,
> fear of
> threat of contamination and compromise of sacred
> values.  fear that leads to knee
> jerk rejection of let's say, dinosaur printed
> pillowcases, 
> Just one little question. If Judaism is not
> monolithic, how would you define
> it? ... "RW" is far from
> monolithic


The above excerpted and abbrevieted post is an
excellent example of how good intentions (of the RW)
can go awry.  It reminds me of the time about 20 or
more years ago when the Lubavitcher Rebbe Assur'd for
children to own toy animals that weren't Behemos
Tahoros.  Stuffed Cow - good. Stuffed dog - no good. 
(Donald Duck - OK. Micky Mouse - No Way)

Be that as it may, my point was that no matter what
one's Hashkafa is all within the Torah community
should be tolerant and respectful of eachother.  I
believe that the LW is often just as intolerant of the
RW.  In many cases the LW motivatiion isn't as L'Shma
as thr RW.  It is in the nature of the LW position
that it is more societaly oriented.  Left Wingers are
inclined to be more Liberal in their thinking and more
prone to  lifestyle considerations than Right Wingers.

 Right Wingers by their nature are "strict
constructionists" if you will and less prone to
lifestyle considerations when determining behavior.
While this may be a good thing it does have built into
it a level of intolerance for the liberal point of
view ;pointing to .

As to your point about the RW not being monolithic,
this is true.  Chasidim are different from misnagdim
and both are different from sfardim who are different
from the Yekkes etc. There are even differences
between all of the chasidic sects and all of the
Litvishe Yeshivos. I guess I was reffering to the
Agudah point of view which is promulgated to Yeshiva
Bochurim all over, as monolithic in the sense that
they are the mainstream and they are intolerant of
non-maistream views.

HM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Kudos to You EliTurkel!  I couldn't agree with you
more. I encourage everyone to read it here if they
missed it the first time.

HM



--- Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il> wrote:
> Subject: Daat Torah
> 
> I recently stated that I was against Daat
> Torah/emunat chachamim. 
> I wish to qualify and clarify that statement.
> 
> I obviously am not against the deah of the Torah nor
> against any seforim
> with the title Daat torah. Similarly I am not
> against the trust of rabbis.
> These words have become catchwords for some
> concepts. I took it
> for granted that people on this list knew these
> words.
> I believe these ideas to be of relatively recent
> origin and to have 
> caused harm.
> The way I understand Daat Torah it consists of the
> following
> 
> 1. There is one "correct" way to view an issue
> especially a hashkafa issue.
> 2. That "correct" way is decided by the "gedolim"
> and they have no need
>    to justify or defend their viewpoint. It belongs
> to the "5th" part
>    of shulchan Arukh that they know simply because
> they are gedolim
>    and only "proper gedolim" can decide.
> 3. The public pronouncements of these "gedolim" are
> binding on everyone
>    whether they asked or not.
> 
> My problem with this are (in short, I wrote an
> extended article on it).
> 
> 1. Historically, it is clear that each community was
> governed by the LOR
>    and not by gedolim. There exist numerous responsa
> of rabbis supporting
> their independence. Actions like cherem Rabbenu
> Gershon, Rabbenu Tam etc.
> were really instituted by meetings of all the local
> communities.
> They are named after famous people because they were
> leaders but they
> were never issued by individual people, no matter
> how great.
> 
> I highly recommend the biography of Rav Breuer. One
> point made in the book
> was that Rav Breuer was the posek for his community
> and he didn't care
> who disagreed with his philosophy. He would argue
> with Rav Chaim miBrisk
> or anyone else. On the other hand he was not
> interested in pushing
> other communities to follow his way.
> 
>    It is irrelevant whether the term daat Torah
> first appeared 50 years ago
> or 150 years ago, its importance is recent. It is
> clear that within the
> chassidic world the idea existed for each sect.
> However, it has spread
> and expanded in the yeshiva world since world war
> II.
> 
> 2. The concept of daat Torah leads to the debate
> over who is a gadol.
>    In the old days this was not an important
> concept. However, since now
> gedolim have this new power it is crucial to define
> who is a gadol.
> Hence, if one has different views than the "correct"
> one there are 2 choices.
> Either the person is not a gadol or else it is a
> "horaat shaah".
> Hence, Rav Kook, Rav Soloveitchik etc. are not
> gedolim because of their
> zionist stances and attitude to secular studies.
> In Rav Shurkin's (excellent) sefer of Rav
> Soloveitchik's shiurim, the
> Rav is listed as the av bet of Boston ! no mention
> of YU presumably since 
> a gadol would not have such an association (I have
> no idea if this is what
> R. Shurkin personally feels or if that is what is
> necessary to spread
> the Torah). Similary, Rav Hirsh did not "really"
> beleive in Torah with
> Derech Eretz, roshei yeshiva from Telshe would not
> particpate in a yom
> haatazmaut celebration etc.
> There is no possibility to be a gadol and yet
> disagree with the "correct"
> position.
> 
> 3. Because they are right ipso facto there is no
> need to justify a position.
> As an example, consider saying Hallel on Yom
> Haatzamaut. Rav Ovadiah
> Yosef has a long responsa showing why one should not
> say a beracha and
> concludes that it is best to say some perek of
> tehillim as praise.
> Rav Schach says that Chazon Ish did not say Hallel
> and so anyone who
> disagrees thinks he is better than CI and so a baal
> gaavah.
> 
> 4. The last point relates tangentially to other
> issues. If some gadol
> issues a decree that it is prohibited to learn
> secular studies in Israel
> does that automatically bind everyone? No one can
> disagree since there
> has already been a horaah?
> With that attitude we don't need poskim. The first
> rabbi out to prohibit
> something automatically wins (does that work
> le-kulah?).
> 
> As a simple less controversial example, I have
> always used cottenseed oil
> on pesach. One well known rabbi told me that this
> allowed in the US
> where Rav Moshe is the posek. However, since I moved
> to Israel I must
> stop since Rav Eliyashiv does not allow it (for
> asheknazim of course).
> I am dumbfounded by this attitude. With the greatest
> of respect for
> Rav Eliyashiv who declared him the posek of Israel?
> Was there a vote I
> didn't hear about? Does Rav Shapira or Rav
> Lichtenstein or all chasidim
> go to Rav Eliyashiv with questions?
> Those that accept Rav Eliyashiv's opinions certainly
> rely on a great posek.
> How that binds others who didn't ask a question I
> haven't the vaguest idea.
> Another posek told me that Chazon Ish is THE posek
> of Bnei Brak and
> probably Israel. Rav Moshe didn't agree with that
> approach.
> Does that mean that all sefardim in Israel should
> follow CI rather
> than Rav Yosef or the sefardi posek of their choice?
> How about chassidim?
> I strongly suspect that way less than 50% of Bnei
> Brak consider CI as
> their posek. Again, this in no way reduces the
> greatness of CI or 
> the need to disagree with respect (and of course
> sources).
> 
> 5. Even many of those who believe in daat Torah
> limit its application.
> Rav Schach has several times attacked the charedim
> of America as not
> being sufficiently charedi. Many charedim in the US
> have a secular
> education at least through high school if not
> through college and
> advance degrees. Almost all poskim in Israel
> denounce such an approach.
> 
> I have seen several responsa where the questioneer
> asks a straight
> halakhic question asking for Daat Torah. When the
> posek answers is
> this a more correct answer than those that don't
> claim to have Daat Torah?
> 
> Bottom line I view daat Torah as an attempt by some
> groups to say
> we are right and you are wrong and it is not up for
> discussion.
> Anyone who disagrees is simply defined as not being
> important, by definition.
> More problematic is the need to deny the valildity
> of any gadol who
> disagrees with the daat torah approach.
> 
> 
> 
> Kol Tuv,
> Eli Turkel
> 


=====

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