Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 071

Wednesday, October 27 1999

• RE: Bnei Torah and Tolerance
• RE: Bnei Torah and Tolerance
• Re: scholars in residence
• Re:
• Milk bottle
• Ortho activists?
• Re: Bnei Torah and Tolerance
• Re[2]: scholars in residence
• what else
• Re: Avodah V4 #70
• kidra chaysa
• Tone and mutual derekh eretz
• daas torah/tolerance
• Gender Roles in Halachah and Aggadah
• Re: daas torah/tolerance
• Re: Elizabeth Dole and the Gender Gap
• Re: Bnei Torah and Tolerance

> and whose tfillin did they wear - Rashi or Rabbenu Tam? If
> Rashi's, then

Probably Rashi's -- the important thing is that *everyone* wore the *same*
t'fillin.

> where did rabbenu tam get his idea from (and v.v.)

From the inevitable breakdown of transmission -- you can't teach
*everything* you know to your students.


> I'm not sure which section you are referring to, certainly
> not those that
> study the dinim of Yichud and understand that it is not as
> clear cut as
> saying that unless you're in times square (which might have its own
> problems:-)), then its Yichud.

But how many people *have* studied the halachos? And for most people the
halachos *are* clear cut.

You have the halacha, and you have heterim for acts that are normally
prohibited by halacha. The heterim *are not* the halacha. Too many people
(and communities/movements) forget this distinction.

> plane trip where he met a young "frei" activist who wanted to
> know why
> orthodox Jews weren't involved in nuclear weapons issues. R'
> Reisman's
> response was (as I understood it) along the lines of - I only
> deal with those
> things I can impact. I wonder if this is a hashkafic or
> halakhic viewpoint or
> the result of other extrinsic factors.
> Any comments?


This is one area where Jewish Renewal is very critical of Orthodoxy. It *is*
a problem -- but we *can't* be involved with *every* issue and solve *every*
problem.

Akiva

> I am not happy with R' Reisman's response. Were we to profess
> to really know
> what should be done about nuclear arms proliferation, I think
> we would be
> mechuyav to be involved. I think we do not, and therefore are not.

And where do we draw the limit on causes to get involved with? Maybe, like
Tzedaka, our actions have to start within *our* communities?

Akiva

I did not imply all young Israels or all Agudah communities are exclusionary 
-- there seems to be a certain trend in yeshiva
education and/or residential patterns in larger frum communities
over the last couple of decades that leads to folks learning about and even 
knowing about the Rebbeim of one and only one derech (the Rabbi Goldwassers 
and Rav Brevdas of the world aside) which did not exist 50 years ago.  One 
of the non-Chabad chassidishe shuls around the block from me in Brooklyn 
has, in addition to Artscroll and the like, the complete set of writings of 
the Bobover Rebbe, Likkutei Sichos, and Shiurim BeSefer HaTanya but such a 
shul is probably an exception to the general rule.


>From: "Sacks, Avram" <Avram_Sacks@cch.com>
>To: Alan Davidson <perzvi@hotmail.com>
>CC: avodah@aishdas.org
>Subject: Re: scholars in residence
>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:09:23 -0500
>
>	As a member and former long-time board member of the neighborhood
>Young Israel to which you refer, here in West Rogers Park, I can assure you
>that we (and I, personally) have invited not just YU and Ner Yisrael types
>to speak and teach.   Speakers and teachers with smichot from other
>yeshivot, including Lakewood and Telshe, have also spoken and taught at our
>shul.  The ONLY qualification that I ever recall ever being discussed vis a
>vis ANY speaker concerned their ability to speak and teach and how
>interesting a speaker might be.   No one has ever been censored because of
>the source of their smicha or where they happen to be now.   And that, is 
>as
>it should be.  The only pertinent questions are "can we learn from him?",
>"is this person interesting?", "will people come", and "is this person
>available?"
>
>	//Avram Sacks
>	Chicago, IL
>
>
>	From:	Alan Davidson <perzvi@hotmail.com> on 10/27/99 12:44 PM
>	To:	hmaryles@yahoo.com@SMTP@cchntmsd
>	cc:	avodah@aishdas.org@SMTP@cchntmsd
>
>	Subject:	scholars in residence
>
>	But that's where the sociology of how folks are trained comes in
>(and, at
>	least judging from what elder yidden tell me it is a relatively
>recent
>	trend), never mind it is a similar insularity that other groups
>often accuse
>	Chabad of.  If folks are raised in a world where Rav Pam, Rav
>Solomon, Rav
>	Berenbaum, Rav Gifter, and perhaps Rav Schach are the only
>candidates for
>	gadol hador (or maybe the only living folks worth learning from) one
>is in
>	an environment that is just as insular as a member of this or that
>chassidic
>	movement who only learns the writings of the Rebbeim of that
>movement.
>	While it might be unfortunate that the Chicago Community Kollel is
>only
>	inviting agudah types, your neighborhood Young Israel probably only
>invites
>	YU or Ner Israel types, and so forth.
>
>	______________________________________________________
>	Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>

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Can you identify any "Gadol" who has come out and unabashedly championed DT
by your definition?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 10:10 AM


> The way I understand Daat Torah it consists of the following
>
> 1. There is one "correct" way to view an issue especially a hashkafa
issue.
> 2. That "correct" way is decided by the "gedolim" and they have no need
>    to justify or defend their viewpoint. It belongs to the "5th" part
>    of shulchan Arukh that they know simply because they are gedolim
>    and only "proper gedolim" can decide.
> 3. The public pronouncements of these "gedolim" are binding on everyone
>    whether they asked or not.
>
> My problem with this are (in short, I wrote an extended article on it).
>
> 1. Historically, it is clear that each community was governed by the LOR
>    and not by gedolim. There exist numerous responsa of rabbis supporting
> their independence. Actions like cherem Rabbenu Gershon, Rabbenu Tam etc.
> were really instituted by meetings of all the local communities.
> They are named after famous people because they were leaders but they
> were never issued by individual people, no matter how great.
>
> I highly recommend the biography of Rav Breuer. One point made in the book
> was that Rav Breuer was the posek for his community and he didn't care
> who disagreed with his philosophy. He would argue with Rav Chaim miBrisk
> or anyone else. On the other hand he was not interested in pushing
> other communities to follow his way.
>
>    It is irrelevant whether the term daat Torah first appeared 50 years
ago
> or 150 years ago, its importance is recent. It is clear that within the
> chassidic world the idea existed for each sect. However, it has spread
> and expanded in the yeshiva world since world war II.
>
> 2. The concept of daat Torah leads to the debate over who is a gadol.
>    In the old days this was not an important concept. However, since now
> gedolim have this new power it is crucial to define who is a gadol.
> Hence, if one has different views than the "correct" one there are 2
choices.
> Either the person is not a gadol or else it is a "horaat shaah".
> Hence, Rav Kook, Rav Soloveitchik etc. are not gedolim because of their
> zionist stances and attitude to secular studies.
> In Rav Shurkin's (excellent) sefer of Rav Soloveitchik's shiurim, the
> Rav is listed as the av bet of Boston ! no mention of YU presumably since
> a gadol would not have such an association (I have no idea if this is what
> R. Shurkin personally feels or if that is what is necessary to spread
> the Torah). Similary, Rav Hirsh did not "really" beleive in Torah with
> Derech Eretz, roshei yeshiva from Telshe would not particpate in a yom
> haatazmaut celebration etc.
> There is no possibility to be a gadol and yet disagree with the "correct"
> position.
>
> 3. Because they are right ipso facto there is no need to justify a
position.
> As an example, consider saying Hallel on Yom Haatzamaut. Rav Ovadiah
> Yosef has a long responsa showing why one should not say a beracha and
> concludes that it is best to say some perek of tehillim as praise.
> Rav Schach says that Chazon Ish did not say Hallel and so anyone who
> disagrees thinks he is better than CI and so a baal gaavah.
>
> 4. The last point relates tangentially to other issues. If some gadol
> issues a decree that it is prohibited to learn secular studies in Israel
> does that automatically bind everyone? No one can disagree since there
> has already been a horaah?
> With that attitude we don't need poskim. The first rabbi out to prohibit
> something automatically wins (does that work le-kulah?).
>
> As a simple less controversial example, I have always used cottenseed oil
> on pesach. One well known rabbi told me that this allowed in the US
> where Rav Moshe is the posek. However, since I moved to Israel I must
> stop since Rav Eliyashiv does not allow it (for asheknazim of course).
> I am dumbfounded by this attitude. With the greatest of respect for
> Rav Eliyashiv who declared him the posek of Israel? Was there a vote I
> didn't hear about? Does Rav Shapira or Rav Lichtenstein or all chasidim
> go to Rav Eliyashiv with questions?
> Those that accept Rav Eliyashiv's opinions certainly rely on a great
posek.
> How that binds others who didn't ask a question I haven't the vaguest
idea.
> Another posek told me that Chazon Ish is THE posek of Bnei Brak and
> probably Israel. Rav Moshe didn't agree with that approach.
> Does that mean that all sefardim in Israel should follow CI rather
> than Rav Yosef or the sefardi posek of their choice? How about chassidim?
> I strongly suspect that way less than 50% of Bnei Brak consider CI as
> their posek. Again, this in no way reduces the greatness of CI or
> the need to disagree with respect (and of course sources).
>
> 5. Even many of those who believe in daat Torah limit its application.
> Rav Schach has several times attacked the charedim of America as not
> being sufficiently charedi. Many charedim in the US have a secular
> education at least through high school if not through college and
> advance degrees. Almost all poskim in Israel denounce such an approach.
>
> I have seen several responsa where the questioneer asks a straight
> halakhic question asking for Daat Torah. When the posek answers is
> this a more correct answer than those that don't claim to have Daat Torah?
>
> Bottom line I view daat Torah as an attempt by some groups to say
> we are right and you are wrong and it is not up for discussion.
> Anyone who disagrees is simply defined as not being important, by
definition.
> More problematic is the need to deny the valildity of any gadol who
> disagrees with the daat torah approach.
>
>
>
> Kol Tuv,
> Eli Turkel
>

A second version of the story has the person getting a used cholov stam 
container, washing it out and pouring cholov Isroel milk into it with the 
same result -- the milk isn't stolen.

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I am literally (OK, 5 minutes) on the way to Dulles and will be in various
countries for a week, and so can't really respond to a couple of things just
at the moment- BTW,for RYGB that's mechy-with-a-y, but coudn't resist a
quick comment on RJRich's remark: < I was listening to R. Reisman's Nach
tape this morning and he commented on a plane trip where he met a young
"frei" activist who wanted to know why orthodox Jews weren't involved in
nuclear weapons issues. R' Reisman's response was (as I understood it) along
the lines of - I only deal with those things I can impact. I wonder if this
is a hashkafic or halakhic viewpoint or the result of other extrinsic
factors. Any comments?Kol Tuv,Joel Rich>
since this did tickle my funny bone for reasons those few of you i actually
know will appreciate i'll note that R. reisman's "young activist" might have
been even less gruntled with orthos if he had had a any real clue, and
"involvement" may lead one to different actions than he ,or perhaps even r.
reisman, might expect. 

Mech"Y" Frankel
michael.frankel@dtra.mil				

In a message dated 10/27/99 2:22:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
atwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< 
 > and whose tfillin did they wear - Rashi or Rabbenu Tam? If
 > Rashi's, then
 
 Probably Rashi's -- the important thing is that *everyone* wore the *same*
 t'fillin.
 
 > where did rabbenu tam get his idea from (and v.v.)
 
 From the inevitable breakdown of transmission -- you can't teach
 *everything* you know to your students.
  >>
Not everyone agrees with you on this - there are opinions that there were 
different practices from time immemorial which only later were conformed.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

>>
I did not imply all young Israels or all Agudah communities are exclusionary 
-- there seems to be a certain trend in yeshiva
education and/or residential patterns in larger frum communities
over the last couple of decades that leads to folks learning about and even 
knowing about the Rebbeim of one and only one derech (the Rabbi Goldwassers 
and Rav Brevdas of the world aside) which did not exist 50 years ago.  One 
of the non-Chabad chassidishe shuls around the block from me in Brooklyn 
has, in addition to Artscroll and the like, the complete set of writings of 
the Bobover Rebbe, Likkutei Sichos, and Shiurim BeSefer HaTanya but such a 
shul is probably an exception to the general rule.<<

It would be a very healthy exercise in our collective "Shalom Bayis" if 
people from differing drochim spent some time with people from alternate 
drochim. 

Maybe we can encourage people to try at least a shabbos or 2 in several of the 
following types of instituions:

1) A Chassishe Shtibl
2) A Litvishe Yeshiva
3) A Young Israel
4) A Sephardic Minyan
5) etc.

Perhaps Chassidim from group A could visit group B just to see "How the Other 
Half Lives".   Perhaps a Telsher Alumnus could visit with a "Brisker" Alumnus, 
etc.

Perhaps NYC Metro people could visit a small out-of-town community; and vice 
versa.

I think this will help us to understand the common denominators that unite us 
and to appreciate our uniqueness in a new way.

Rich Wolpoe

A number of listmembers have already posted rebuttals to our anonymous
arbiter of tzeni'ut.  I will restrict myself to one or two points that
have not been addressed.

>Hemlines and sleeves have climbed way up, necklines have come down, and
>people who proclaim high regard for tznius speak, even on this list, in a
>fashion that would have made their grandmothers cringe

This may depend on when -- and where -- their grandmothers lived.  More
than 20 years ago, the fashion of short skirts took America by storm.
In the mid-1960's, it was common for frum women to wear high hemlines,
often with a sheitel.  You may wonder: How do I define "frum" in the
previous sentence?  My family lived in Cleveland at the time, so I refer
specifically to wives of Telshe yeshiva yungeleit, some of whom are now
roshei yeshiva.  Of course, anyone who has looked at wedding photos or
wedding films from the 1950's and 1960's knows that, even in yeshiva
circles, the standards of tzeni'ut were different from those that are
prescribed today (even by those who have not implemented the standards
of Dayyan Falk.)  And some have had these photos retouched.  What went
on in hasidisher circles I do not know.  (As a side point, most of the
husbands of these miniskirted women in Telshe were clean shaven or had a
goatee.  I believe this was true in most other American yeshivos as
well.)

Moreover, the hemlines and necklines are not the whole story either.
Unacceptably tight clothes are sometimes a problem, even today, though
the sleeves reach the wrist and the skirts touch the floor.

But my sense is that, looking at the Orthodox community in America over
the last 40 years, the standards of tzeni'ut in dress have increased
across the board.  Both in yeshiva and modern circles, there is far less
social acceptance of halakhically immodest dress, though obviously to
different degrees.  And though there is still a great deal of progress
which can be made in this area, there are encouraging signs.  For
example, many children whose mothers wear shorts and miniskirts attend
schools with a strict halakhic dress code.   Moreover, the ueshiva world
has increasingly adopted vertain hasidisher standards of tzeni'ut, none
of which, to my knowledge are mandated by halakhah.

But for all our advances in tzeni'ut in dress, I find that our standards
of tzeni'ut have declined far more in other areas.  As the community as
a whole has become more affluent economically, especially in the US,
many of us have lost the sense of proportion and modesty that our
grandparents had about material possessions.  This can be seen in
individual families, in many frum neighborhoods, as well as in
sub-groups within many yeshivos.  No doubt some will say that having a
pool in your backyard is simply motivated by a desire to avoid mixed
swimming; but I am not convinced.  One can see yeshiva bahurim parading
around in Armani suits and $100 ties.  The exorbitantly priced
human-hair sheitlach mock the laws of tzeni'ut AND the laws of kisui
rosh.  The sportscars, fancy vacations, mansion-like homes -- all of
these signify to me a lack of tzeni'ut that concerns more than hemlines.
 And, as I say, I find these problems to affect the entire spectrum of
American Orthodoxy.

Regarding "R" rated movies: from what I have read, there are many movies
with a lesser rating that may be just as objectionable as "R" rated
films.  On the other hand, I can list a number of "R" rated films that I
have seen that were not problematic halakhically (unless one thinks it
forbidden to hear nivul peh on a soundtrack) and were intellectually
engaging and, in some cases, spritiually edifying.  Titles available
upon request.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark 

> Any takes on the English "HaModiah"?  More chassidic input than 
> Yated. 
	It appears to be better than the Yated at what they do,  but it is a
different type of publication than JO.

Gershon

From: Josh Hoexter <		>
> Subject: Re: kidra chaysa
> 
> > From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
> > 	Rav Henkin z"l says unequivocally, both in his sefer 
> (sorry no cite) and
> > in the ET luach,  not to rely on this bizman hazeh.
> 
> Why?
	My recollection,  from the last time I saw it (check the luach!) is that
we are not sure when Shabbos starts.  If you put up a pot of raw food at
what we call shkia,  and Shabbos truly starts, say 15 to 30 minutes
later,  you have in effect started Shabbos with a pot which is partly
cooked but not kemaachal ben drusai,  which is osur.  In order to use the
heter,  you'd need to be certain of the moment Shabbos starts.

Gershon

Regarding the tone of discussion between different segments of the
Orthodox community:  Those of a historical or halakhic orientation will
attest that the current phenomenon of vituperation is not a recent
development.  Gedolim  -- both Rishonim and Aharonim -- called each
other names, hasidic groups feuded, etc.

One factor that I feel contributes to this lack of derekh eretz is the
increasing physical separation of communities.  This is most pronounced
in Eretz Yisrael, where one rarely finds haredim and dati'im sharing the
same neighborhoods (except in certain urban centers), but also in the
US.  I believe the lack of interpersonal contact contributes greatly to
the hardening of stereotypes and mutual disdain.  Those of us who are
fortunate enough to bridge such gaps can attest to the inestimable value
of simply sharing common experiences together.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

The issue isn't so much the lack of discrete communities -- was East 
Flatbush or Brownsville 35 years ago solidly Orthodox, heck no.  I think the 
issue has more to do with the fact that especially among  Baal Teshuvahs 
lots of folks who are drawn to Orthodoxy have lukewarm feelings about the 
broader society and the non-orthodox movements they were raised in.  If 
anything folks who grew up there tell me that Crown Heights was much more 
mainstream (with respect to messianism, etc.) when it was more heterogeneous 
Orthodox-wise.

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In v4n68, Chana Luntz <Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk> writes:
: Rather, this isn't a question of women learning, it is a question of
: should women be limited to being housewives, and no doubt the debate
: goes back to the time of Shlomo Hamelech, as I am sure there were those
: who tut-tutted that the eishes chayil had (gasp) maidservants and didn't
: do it all herself.

I think you're presenting a false dichotomy. It's not home only vs being
a professional first. Or, as your comments about the S"A maids suggests,
that it's assur to allow someone else to keep your house. Even someone who
chooses a career outside the home can find her calling to be within the
home, and see the career as a tafeil. It's pretty clear to me, at least,
that this is Sh'lomo's description of the Eishes Chayil.

I have a similar reaction to R Yosef Blau's comment:
: Assuming that this change in role in society will have no impact on how
: women view their role in religious life is unrealistic.  If they can
: combine a partnership in a law firm with their role as mother and wife then
: the argument that studying to become yoatzot will destroy their family life
: makes little sense.

Staying away from the "Y-word" for the moment, I'd like to apply the same
distinction I did before. There's a difference between a woman who is a
partner in a law firm and a woman who defines herself as a partner in a law
firm.

Regardless of gender, it's dreadful that in English idiom "What are you?" is
answered by a job description.

The impact of changing roles in the workplace on religion is only to the
extent that the workplace enters our self-definition.

So to me the question isn't "Should a woman take a job?", or even "Should a
woman pursue a career?" The question is one of "Is a woman supposed to see
herself as a mom and wife who works, or as a professional who has a family?"
And I don't see how you can argue the latter side of the question.

Men, OTOH, are not only expected to be fathers and husbands, but are also the
only ones able to recieve true semichah (bimheirah biyameinu we should have
such a thing), be dayanim, serve as kohanim and levi'im, shoftim, shot'rim,
milachim, or wield serarah (whatever that is exactly). There's clear halachic
indication that aside from his role in the Jewish home, men have to assume
a role running Jewish society. There's also the same implication in the fact
that "vinikdashti bisoch adas b'nei yisrael" boils down to defining an "eidah",
a community, as 10 males.

When the Y-word came up on soc.culture.jewish I had to frame my concerns in
a way that would be understandable to a non-Orthodox Jew with a Sunday School
"education". Here's a slightly corrected version of that part that deals with
the larger issue.

:     ... it reinforces the idea that O Judaism is structured like other
: religions, primarily in the synagogue and centered around clergy. If we
: were properly propogating the idea that Judaism is centered on the home,
: perhaps more people would be trying to seek spirituality there, instead
: of striving ...

: Solomon writes that "the honor of the king's daughter in inside". This is
: taken by Maimonides (to an extreme we would never find acceptable today) as
: well as many many others as a halachic priority. While it sounds like it's
: saying "barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen", if you really look at how
: the expression is used, it's about the notion that we need people to build
: religious homes. IOW, it's not about where women shouldn't be, it's about
: where we need them to be -- at the forefront of the center of Judaism.

: Jeremiah (31:22) uses a metaphor we'd expect to see in Song of Songs to
: describe the messianic era, "female shall encircle the male". According to
: Hirsch (note the age of this idea, it's at least a century before the
: feminist movement, apologetics is not involved) this means that Judaism,
: with its center on the home and family will give structure to the west (sons
: of Japeth), who focus on honor and state. (The word for male in this context
: is "gever", from the same root as "gibor", hero.)

: This notion of gender roles: woman building the clan, man building
: the state, goes far to explain a number of gender differences. For example,
: why men are counted toward a minyan but not women. Becuase a minyan is
: (as the exegesis implies) an "eidah" a miniture of the Jewish People as
: a whole. Similarly, the legal system is male territory. And, Hirsch notes
: that the only laws that conform to the rule of "women are exempt from time
: restricted mitzvos" are those time-restricted mitzvos that also reflect on
: man's relationship to the outside world.

: Women too have to deal with the outside world; c.f. Solomon's woman of valor
: (Eishes Chayil) who is at the gates selling her wares. However, the religious
: role Jewish tradition gives her isn't about it relating to the outside, it's
: about building a solid inside. "The honor of the king's daughter is inside."

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 27-Oct-99: Revi'i, Vayera
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 59b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 1

Dear Alan,

See Eli Clark's comments...

I'm NOT talking about Crown Heights prior to 1970; I'm talknig about it now that
all the MO's and Bovevers etc. have left a vacuum filled in by Lubavich only. 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: daas torah/tolerance 
Author:  "Alan Davidson" <perzvi@hotmail.com> at tcpgate
Date:    10/27/1999 3:20 PM


The issue isn't so much the lack of discrete communities -- was East 
Flatbush or Brownsville 35 years ago solidly Orthodox, heck no.  I think the 
issue has more to do with the fact that especially among  Baal Teshuvahs 
lots of folks who are drawn to Orthodoxy have lukewarm feelings about the 
broader society and the non-orthodox movements they were raised in.  If 
anything folks who grew up there tell me that Crown Heights was much more 
mainstream (with respect to messianism, etc.) when it was more heterogeneous 
Orthodox-wise.

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Micha Berger wrote:


> 
> I'd love to hear a cause for believing in a more optimistic future. OTOH, if
> it pushes more Jews to move to Israel, perhaps it's not so bad... <half-grin>
> 


<full-grin>

It's pushing my wife. A very happy thing in my opinion. She's known since
before we married that I wanted to go back, but hasn't been 'ready'. 

Now that our daughter's almost 4, my wife is actually talking about it.

There's no choice of schools here, at least for girls, Even for boys,
there're maybe three choices, two of which are virtually identical at this
point.


---sam

Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com> writes:
: You have here an expression of a personal dream of my
: own: The concept of mutual respect by people with
: differing points of view.

: But this just ain't gonna happen! ..."Holier than
: thou" Rules!

I'm reminded of R' Aharon Twersky on the difference between having a strong
self image and ga'avah. Ga'avah is the product of low self-worth. If people
realized their own worth, they wouldn't need to seek validation by trying
to impress others.

Communally speaking, attacking "them", particularly when the context is a
supposed defense of "but 'they' are no better", is the sign of a community
that is unsure of its own ideology and value. If we realized our own strengths
we'd be building on those, and repairing our own faults. Instead, we take
the easier route of standing taller than others by tearing the others down.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 27-Oct-99: Revi'i, Vayera
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 59b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 1

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