Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 069

Wednesday, October 27 1999

• Pepsi Generation?
• kidra chaysa
• Jewish Observer
• Chacham She'asar
• Tone
• RE: Yated/ Rabbi Yehuda Henkin speaks for himself
• earning power
• Rav Schacter
• The milk bottle
• Re: Rav Schacter
• RE: Bnei Torah and Tolerance
• RE: Pepsi Generation?
• the Yenemsvelt Eruv
• Re: Bnei Torah and Tolerance
• Re: Bnei Torah and Tolerance
• The milk bottle - humor alert
• Re: Orthodox Caucus
• Avodah, PAI and Giyus Banos
• Re: Chacham She'asar
• Re: to ask a shaila or to take advice?
• Re: what else (fwd)
• Re: The milk bottle

--- "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:

> The vast proportion of American Orthodox youth have
> had at the very least
> niddah negiah contact before marriage.  A large
> percentage continue that
> practice with their husbands and men other their
> husbands after marriage.

How does the poster know this? Is he, perhaps, using
the classic Psychological defense mechanism called
"Projection"?

> (Witness the hugs and kisses by non-family members
> at the average wedding
> to see what I mean.)

The Halochos of Negia are very complex and vary from
one constituancy to another. 

On the Chasidic side, touching a member of the
opposite sex is virtually a Yehoreg VeAl Yavor in any
and all circumstances.  

This attitude is lessened somewhat in the Yeshivishe
world.  There, all physical contact, platonic or
certainly otherwise is forbidden but incidental
contact is usually ignored and there isn't this
overwhelming effort to avoid contact as there is in
the Chasidic community.  Also, the attitude is, for
the most part, that if a non-Jew or unlearned Jew
extends some form of socially accepted contact with a
member of the opposite sex such as a hand shake, it is
prefferable to just let it happen then to create a
chilul Hashem. So instructed R. Dovid Zucker, Rosh
Kollel of The CCK to his wife when she had a speaking
engagement.  I believe that R. Yaakov Kaminetsky had
this shitah as well.  

My understanding is that in the Yekkisha (did I spell
that right?) community virtually all forms of platonic
physical contact, i.e. not BeDerech Chiba is
permissable, including the very common peck on the
cheek, or social hug.


> The most insidious aspect of this is not necessarily
> relevant to whether
> there should or shouldn't be yoatzot. It is the lie
> that the need and the
> reluctance to ask stem from tznius.

Such Hyperbole! What gives this poster precience to
know who is lying anyway.
> 
> Hemlines and sleeves have climbed way up, necklines
> have come down, 

How interesting of this "holier than thou" poster to
notice.

> and
> people who proclaim high regard for tznius speak,
> even on this list, in a
> fashion that would have made their grandmothers
> cringe -- yet because of
> tznius they don't want to speak to a Rov about their
> questions. What a
> disgraceful distortion of tznius.

Here the poster is comparing apples and oranges. What
some of us may be guilty of when speaking in the
relative anonymity of this list, has absolutely
nothing to do with how some sincere but delicate and
sensitive women in the community of Torah Jewery may
feel about about talking about such private matters
with a male posek.

 The baalei Torah
> shebaal peh from the
> time of the Gemara spoke about it with women, Dovid
> HaMelech was osek in
> it but the Pepsi generation are all more highly
> attuned to tznius than
> they were. 

I happen to like coke myself.

(I wonder how many people on this holy
> list can state honestly
> that they never watched a rated R movie)

My all time favorite was Terminator 2, Judgement Day

HM

=====

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> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:39:22 -0500
> From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" 
> <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
> Subject: Was Re: Quoting Halacha vs. Rendering P'sak, Now, A chicken 
> in Every Cholent Pot
> 
> The SSK does not, if I recall, even quote the halacho of kedeira 
> chayasa
> since he holds it is not practicable nowadays.
	Rav Henkin z"l says unequivocally, both in his sefer (sorry no cite) and
in the ET luach,  not to rely on this bizman hazeh.

Gershon

sefer to whip out on supermarket lines is very well taken, halivai i
should
have the strength to implement it, but those headlines are just so good..
as
for your unaccountable to me preferences for the JO
	by calling it a preference you imply that one chooses the JO over
several other,  similar journals.  I don't believe we have the luxury of
such freedom of choice.  I think that JO has some very good articles
despite its warts.  Jewish Action is pretty good.  What else,  exactly, 
is there?  Shall we rely on the New York Times?  Or the supermarket
tabloids?  

	Perhaps we really should bury our heads in the Gemara,  but there is a
need for some type of journalistic effort.  While none of the offerings
is ideal,  they are what we have.   We can try to improve them or ignore
them,  but knocking them as so much Lamm-slam accomplishes nothing.

Gershon

In digest 4:67, R. David Nadoff wrote: <<< I believe your rationale is in
accord with the Oruch Hashulchan's explanation [YD 242:63] of why Rambam
and Tur do not mention the halacha of chacham she'asar. He believes that
they hold chacham sheasar is no longer generally applicable because it
only applies where the oser and the matir differ in svara on a matter as
to which they are not relying on earlier authorities, but not where they
differ in their view on which of two previously established competing
shitos should be followed. Because of the proliferation of sifray halacha
and shu"t, Oruch Hashulchan believes (and ascribes to Rambam and Tur the
view) that no one ever paskens from svara anymore, but always relies on
some prior opinion, so chacham she'asar does not apply. >>>

That's what what the Aruch Hashulcha *says*, but I still don't understand
it. If there are several competing shitos, and one chooses from among
them, why isn't that called "paskening from svara"?

Being reasonable humans, the reasoning found in Sefer A will make sense
to me, and the reasoning found in Sefer B will make sense to you. We can
throw proofs at each other until we're blue, and at the end of the day,
the only difference between us is that we differ in svara. So even
according to the Aruch Hashulchan, Chacham Sheasar WOULD apply.

Wouldn't it? I'm confused. What's the difference between differing is
svara, and choosing one shu"t over another?

Akiva Miller

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while we would all agree with r broyde's point, i think when a community
feels it's working lshem shamayim, their  behaviour towards the other is
self excused. our generation  like the last 1900 years worth is not
suffering from an overabundance of ahavat chinam.   i  think that when many
people teach ahavat yisrael, they unfortunately consider yisrael as those
who look [ and think] just like them.....

> It seems to me that the Yated writer based himself strictly on the
> Jewish Week article, without doing his own interviewing of the people
> involved.  (Will the person in touch with the Yated writer confirm
> this?)  

From the Jewish Week, The Jerusalem Post, and HaHaretz.

> If only he had made the effort to get first hand information!

He agrees on that point. 

Akiva

Micha writes
> 
> I think we're going to be facing a real crisis sometime between now and
> the 5780 school year. Population growth is exponential -- for that matter,
> family size is still growing. The economic boom years are a thing of the
> past -- I may be earning far more money than my father did at my age, but
> less earning power. We also have an increasing percentage of our population
> heading for fiscally low income jobs; be it in k'lei kodesh, or in whatever
> they can get on a trade-school (e.g. COPE) degree.
> 
> I'd love to hear a cause for believing in a more optimistic future. OTOH, if
> it pushes more Jews to move to Israel, perhaps it's not so bad... <half-grin>
> 

While I completely agree with Micha I don't understand the last sentence.
I think the situation in Israel is worse than in the US. In Israel most
litvishe yeshiva boys end up in a kollel for the many years and their income
depned on the latest coalition agreement.

BTW this seems to be a worldwide phenomena. i have heard from relatives in
Switzerland that the community is approaching a crises as half the orthodox
crowd is no longer working but sititng and learning and the capacity of the
others has reached its end. On the other hand it is difficult for a
"rich" community like that to got outside to ask for charity.

Eli Turkel

> 
> 5. Several years ago The Rosh Kollel of The CCK, Rabbi
> Moshe Francis, a man whom I admire and respect, asked
> me for some advice on who I thought woud be a good
> draw for a mini-Yarchei Kallah weekend retreat.  When
> I reccomended R. Herschel Schachter he said that even
> though on a personal level he would love to have him
> he would never get the approval of Headquarters (as he
> pu it) i.e. Lakewood.  He would be in danger of losing
> the Lakewood charter, so to speak.  The fear was that
> certain members of Agudah would be very upset.  
> 
I thought we agreed not to further the RW-LW debate.
Specifically, I thought Rav Schachter had good relations with
most of the Agudah.
I remember going to a shiur of Rav Zilberstein, son-in-law of rav Eliyashiv
and a neighborhood rabbi i Bnei Brak quoting from nefesh HaRav.

Kol Tuv,
Eli Turkel

This morning in shul I heard a story which is quite disturbing. I don't
know if this is a *maaseh she'haya* or an urban legend.

At a well known yeshiva gedola in NYC, one of the talmidim needed a fresh
bottle of (chalav yisrael) milk delivered to his dorm room every morning.
The first day it disappeared, the second day it disappeared. The third
day, the talmid hangs up a notice: "Please don't take the milk bottle";
the next day it still disappears. The fourth day the talmid hangs up a sign:
"This is pikuach nefesh: I need the milk for my health. Please don't touch"
but the bottle disappears. The fifth day the talmid hangs up a sign: "It is
an issur d'oraita to steal. Please don't take my milk bottle" yet it still
disappears. Then on the 6th day the talmid writes: "The milk is NOT chalav
yisrael !" and miraculously, the bottle is waiting for him.

Mussar haskel.

Josh

--- Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il> wrote:
> > 
> > 5. Several years ago The Rosh Kollel of The CCK,
> Rabbi
> > Moshe Francis, a man whom I admire and respect,
> asked
> > me for some advice on who I thought woud be a good
> > draw for a mini-Yarchei Kallah weekend retreat. 
> When
> > I reccomended R. Herschel Schachter he said that
> even
> > though on a personal level he would love to have
> him
> > he would never get the approval of Headquarters
> (as he
> > pu it) i.e. Lakewood.  He would be in danger of
> losing
> > the Lakewood charter, so to speak.  The fear was
> that
> > certain members of Agudah would be very upset.  
> > 
> I thought we agreed not to further the RW-LW debate.
> Specifically, I thought Rav Schachter had good
> relations with
> most of the Agudah.
> I remember going to a shiur of Rav Zilberstein,
> son-in-law of rav Eliyashiv
> and a neighborhood rabbi i Bnei Brak quoting from
> nefesh HaRav.


It was not my intent to further that debate but to
move Agudah into a more tolerant attitude. My above
quoted story is true.  R. Francis (RW) himself
respects R. Schachter.  It is Agudah specificly that
doesn't.

HM


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> I suppose they can say in their own defense that one
> does not compromise an ideology. Therefore, to be
> tolerant means giving tacit approval to a hashkafa
> that is different (and therefore wrong) from ones own.

This goes way beyond mere hashkafa -- the issues are usually halachic.

>
> But Judaism has never been monolithic.  There have
> always been legitimate differing points of view
> throughout history.

Yeah, starting with Korach...

[N.B. THE ABOVE WAS MEANT TOUNGE IN CHEEK...]

To be accurate, you would have to specify a starting time. From Matan Torah
through the Navi'im at least, Judaism *was* monolithic (to use your phrase).

> as long as there is no violation of Halacha and it is
> Lishmah.

This is the key issue. Take, for example, Yichud. The halacha is clear, but
*dismissed* as "not relevant today, we're just friends" by a large section
of Orthodoxy.

That section can't fall back on "hashkafic differences" as an excuse for
violating the halacha.

Akiva

> The Halochos of Negia are very complex and vary from
> one constituancy to another.

Actually, the halachos are fairly simple -- it's the outright ignoring of
halacha that's the major problem here, and that can lead to pre-maritial
sexual relations ("tefillin dates").

Akiva

In Digest 4:67, R. David Nadoff described in great detail some of the
problems around the eruv in a hypothetical town. I have two points I'd
like to ask:

(1) Has it been established whether or not Chacham She'asar applies to
non-tangible situations? I and others have asked/suggested that it might
apply only to an Issur Cheftza, i.e., a specific object (such as a piece
of meat) which might be ruled to be assur. If so, then *perhaps* it does
not apply to the Yenemsvelt Eruv, because although a chacham might
declare an area to be a Rushus Harabim, he cannot declare it to be Assur,
as he might to a piece of meat.

(2) Even if Chacham She'asar does not apply, the Mara D'asra has a status
different from that of other chachamim, and what he says goes, if
Yenemsvelt is united enough to *have* such leaders for themselves.

Akiva Miller

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In a message dated 10/27/99 7:46:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
atwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< 
 To be accurate, you would have to specify a starting time. From Matan Torah
 through the Navi'im at least, Judaism *was* monolithic (to use your phrase).
 ============================
and whose tfillin did they wear - Rashi or Rabbenu Tam? If Rashi's, then 
where did rabbenu tam get his idea from (and v.v.)
=========================
 > as long as there is no violation of Halacha and it is
 > Lshma.
 
 This is the key issue. Take, for example, Yichud. The halacha is clear, but
 *dismissed* as "not relevant today, we're just friends" by a large section
 of Orthodoxy.
 
 That section can't fall back on "hashkafic differences" as an excuse for
 violating the halacha.
 ==================
I'm not sure which section you are referring to, certainly not those that 
study the dinim of Yichud and understand that it is not as clear cut as 
saying that unless you're in times square (which might have its own 
problems:-)), then its Yichud.
===================
 Akiva
  >>

I was listening to R. Reisman's Nach tape this morning and he commented on a 
plane trip where he met a young "frei" activist who wanted to know why 
orthodox Jews weren't involved in nuclear weapons issues. R' Reisman's 
response was (as I understood it) along the lines of - I only deal with those 
things I can impact. I wonder if this is a hashkafic or halakhic viewpoint or 
the result of other extrinsic factors.
Any comments?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

I am not happy with R' Reisman's response. Were we to profess to really know
what should be done about nuclear arms proliferation, I think we would be
mechuyav to be involved. I think we do not, and therefore are not.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <Joelirich@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: Bnei Torah and Tolerance


> I was listening to R. Reisman's Nach tape this morning and he commented on
a
> plane trip where he met a young "frei" activist who wanted to know why
> orthodox Jews weren't involved in nuclear weapons issues. R' Reisman's
> response was (as I understood it) along the lines of - I only deal with
those
> things I can impact. I wonder if this is a hashkafic or halakhic viewpoint
or
> the result of other extrinsic factors.
> Any comments?
>
> Kol Tuv,
> Joel Rich
>

Perhaps on Yom hashsishi the milkman left 2 bottles (bottle mishne) and only one
of the 2 was stolen, leaving one behind?

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Then on the 6th day the talmid writes: "The milk is NOT chalav yisrael !" 
and miraculously, the bottle is waiting for him.

Mussar haskel.

Josh

Is anyone familiar with this group and its projects or reputation? Please 
respond on or offline as you see fit. There is a toelet in this request which 
I will share offline if needed (it's nothing nefarious)

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

Methinks many of our hearty band of (new word alert) controversialists would
have found the now mostly defunct organization and ideology of Po'alei
Agudas Yisroel and Dr. Isaac Breuer to its liking, presenting a positive
alternative neither too far to the L or to the R. I did my little bit to
ressurect this philosophical position with a JO essay on Dr. Breuer (and  a
subsequent one on the dissimilar but similar essay on Dr. Nathan Birnbaum) a
few years ago. Both are available on the aishdas.org website. But, although
the passing of PAI is tragic and regrettable, to use a metaphor currently
popular here, this is crying over spilt milk.

I think it is generally accepted that just as the terminal R/L split here in
the USA had a defining moment in the '50's with the SCA/NYBR psak of the
eleven Roshei Yeshiva, so too the terminal R/L split in EY had a defining
moment in the Giyus Banos controversy, driving a wedge between the Agudah
and the Mizrachi, and, internally, rending PAI asunder from the Agudah.
Although, however, I have seen much assessment and re-assessment of the
process on the American scene, I have never seen any written analysis of
what happened on the Israeli scene. Do any of our number know of books or
essays tackling the subject? If not, can one of said number tackle the
subject here (Mechi Frankel, are you there?). I would most appreciate
objective (oh well, why not, subjective as well) edifying information.

Thanks!

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

>
> I don't know the precise basis for R' Aharon's opposition to the Chicago
eiruv

If there are Jews living within the eruv who do not keep Shabbos, might this
invalidate the eruv?

Mrs G. Atwood

> Rather, this isn't a question of women learning, it is a question of
> should women be limited to being housewives, and no doubt the debate
> goes back to the time of Shlomo Hamelech, as I am sure there were those
> who tut-tutted that the eishes chayil had (gasp) maidservants and didn't
> do it all herself.
>
Shalom Chana!
I enjoy your erudition in this and the last post!  (I'm not qualified to
comment much on the problem of nida/ziva and korbanos except to say TEKU!
It's possible we will be only chayav one of each type of korban according to
some opinions)
It seems to me that this(house-help)  is more of a hashkafic than a halachic
issue.  Certainly there are many times and situations that require the
hiring of housecleaners and babysitters, and I certainly wouldn't condemn a
woman who, for her own needs (including psychological needs) and the needs
of others, hires help.

Rather, I'm addressing the problem of a negative attitude toward
housecleaning and motherhood  ("I'm ONLY a housewife", "do you work or do
you just stay at home"  etc etc) prevalent in the modern world.  These
attitudes drive many women away from homemaking in order to keep some sense
of self esteem, and this, I think, is tragic.  It's tragic for a woman whose
sense of self worth depends on recognition at the work place, titles etc;
it's tragic for latchkey kids-  and for the husbands-  (though I am aware
that there are many other causes of marital disharmony)

Yes, I know there are plenty of families that have made it work very well,
the husband pitches in (as he should, of course) .
The work of the housewife has been compared to the avoda of the cohen in the
Beis hamikdash-  taking out the ashes and building a new fire, preparing and
cooking meat and bread,  cleaning up the mess afterwards.  Then you have to
launder the stained clothes.  Yes, you're right, it's perfectly permissible
to delegate this responsiblity to others, but I feel that the woman could
miss out on a great opportunity of an avodah of chessed and kedusha that she
might not find elsewhere. No, she certainly doesn't need to limit herself-
(and equal pay for equal work of course :-)

By the way- what would be the modern equivalent of spinning wool, I wonder?

Gila A.

===================================================
Mrs. Gila Atwood

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
To: Highlevel Torah Discussion Group <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: what else (fwd)


> This will stir the pot here (and not the cholent one), but since this
> is the topic that will not end, I am throwing in this anonymous forward.
> 
Can I have the e mail of this anonymous poster, offline please? 
 
Gila A. 

"The milk is NOT chalav
> yisrael !" and miraculously, the bottle is waiting for him.
>
> Mussar haskel.
>
> Josh

It sounds like a yeshivish joke.  Chalila it should be true!  Hey, it's not
outside the limits of possibility, but we should be careful not to be quick
to believe something that reinforces our stereotypes and negative opinions.
The same goes in the other direction, of course, and I do my own cheshbon
hanefesh...

There's a similar/converse joke here...
Typical home in Tel Aviv.  Mr. & Mrs. B. are very upset.
"Last year Dudu went off to Jerusalem and became chozer bi'tshuva and joined
a yeshiva.  Six months ago Sigalit went to Bnei Brak and now she's covering
her hair. Now  Yossi is in Tzfat and wants to kasher our kitchen. What shall
we do?"

Mr. B.  Maybe we should have our mezuzot checked??

(Heard from Rabbi Moshe Chalkowsky,  Principal of Neve Yerushalayim)
>

********************


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