Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 066

Tuesday, October 26 1999

• Shei'lo Escalation
• Re: Shei'lo Escalation
• Re: teachers' salaries
• Was Re: Quoting Halacha vs. Rendering P'sak, Now, A chicken in Every Cholent Pot
• Re: Female learning and female worship
• yoetzot- RW/MO
• Re: yoetzot- RW/MO
• Re: Yatedish journalism
• Tone
• [none]
• Equal Pay for Equal Work
• Re: Gila's website
• Re: Quoting Halacha vs. Rendering P'sak
• Re: Equal Pay for Equal Work
• NCSY
• Re: Quoting Halacha vs. Rendering P'sak
• Equal Pay for Equal Work
• Re: Equal Pay for Equal Work
• Re[2]: Equal Pay for Equal Work

Ah, but the gadlus is in recognizing that you have a tricky shaila in 
the first place!

-- Carl<<

I don't know if it's a function of Gadlus to recognize a tricky shaila, so much 
as a function of anivus.

Coming from a "small town" (i.e. West Hartford, CT) it was not unusual to 
escalate "shailos" to a Rav from Boston (i.e. RYBS) or NYC.

FWIW, one of my goals in learning for Semicho was not so much to be able to 
pasken; rather to be able to discern the relevant issues from those that are not
so relevant, and thereby be able to frame an intelligent "shailo".

I personally consider a "shailo" tricky if it's something I do not deal with 
frequently.

Rich Wolpoe

On 26 Oct 99, at 9:12, Yzkd@aol.com wrote:

> 
> > >> You can't very well tell a woman who is living in a rural area that the 
> >  only Rav in town is not qualified to pasken Hilchos Nida, and therefore 
> she 
> >  should send all of her shailas to New York! She would never send any! 
> >  
> 
> And why can't the Rov send it to another Rov?  

He definitely can and should. The question is what happens when 
he doesn't and how does one make the difficult decision to "go over 
his head?" In the example that I cited yesterday (our posek in the 
US had received maros that the local Rav had paskened were 
tamei for several months that our posek found to be clearly tahor), 
obviously an expert should have been consulted sooner.

The idea that a Rov would 
> Pasken w/o knowledge in the field, is very scary, 

I agree that it is. I also submit that it happens more often than any 
of us want to admit. I shudder when I think of the story one of my 
friends studying in EY told me twenty years ago about how his 
chavrusa in the smicha program would skip all the Roshei Teivos in 
the Mishna Brura if he did not understand them!

what about Gitin and 
> Kiddushin?, why doesn't the search committee make it a prerequist that he 
> have Shimush in TH, (if they would not be hired otherwise, it would become 
> part of their training).

I think you're placing too much faith in the search committee which 
is generally composed of laymen who often have little or no 
learning, and are probably making a decision based on a Rav's 
public speaking abilities and "people skills" rather than based upon 
his accomplishments in learning. I recall one member of a search 
committee in the States telling me (about his fellow members), 
"they don't want to hear what a Rabbi has to say, they want to 
show him how much they know." 

I'm sure we've all heard the old joke about the Rabbi who tries out 
for the pulpit and after the President of the shul tells him on 
consecutive weeks that he cannot discuss Shabbos, Kashrus and 
THM in his sermon, he finally asks the President what he SHOULD 
discuss. Answer: "Yiddishkeit." Probably as true in many shuls 
today as it was when I first heard it 25 years ago.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Message deleted to avoid redundancy. I agree on all counts. There can be
achdus on Avodah :-).

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <TROMBAEDU@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: teachers' salaries


> Jordan
>

The SSK does not, if I recall, even quote the halacho of kedeira chayasa
since he holds it is not practicable nowadays.

But, in our recent DY study of Kira, it seemed evident to me that there is
room to be maykel to put a raw pot of cholent on a blech right before
Shabbos, as then there is no gezeira shema yechateh, and no ma'seh bishul on
Shabbos.

Are others under that impression?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Carl M. Sherer <csherer@netvision.net.il>
To: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>; <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 4:34 AM
Subject: Re: Quoting Halacha vs. Rendering P'sak


> Another example of where I would consider something psak rather
> than just quoting halacha is where the facts are clear, but the
> halacha sforim do not specifically deal with the case. For example,
> several years ago I had occasion to ask a Rav whether the heter of
> kdeira chaysa (putting frozen meat into the cholent pot
> immediately before Shabbos such that it will not even cook to
> maachal ben drusoee before Shabbos - considered mutar because
> there is little chance that you can do anything that will make it
> edible for your Friday night supper) applies to chicken. The posek
> told me, "go look it up and come back and tell me the answer
> yourself!" I spent the entire Shabbos poring over sforim, and the
> only thing I came upon that was close was the correspondence
> between R. Moshe and R. Shlomo Zalman (and the latter's
> talmidim) about eating the bones from the cholent on Shabbos (in
> the first chelek of Igros Moshe OH - I don't have the exact cite in
> front of me). When I came back and told the posek this, he looked
> into it himself and eventually paskened that it was assur to eat that
> cholent on that Shabbos (because chicken can cook quickly
> enough that there is a chashash that one will come to stir the pot
> so that it will cook more quickly and be edible on Friday night).
> Again, this is an application of the facts to the accepted halacha,
> and IMHO goes beyond mere quoting of halacha, i.e. this is
> rendering psak.
>

Rav Begun(Bigon)  I've no idea what transliteration he'd prefer-  wonderful
teacher!- taught me in Machon Ora- (same time as Rabbanit Henkin). I also
helped clean his house- amusing in light of this article.

> Let it be stated clearly: The need to "feel an attachment" or to "get into
> the flow" of housework is entirely secondary.

but...

> It is precisely learned, spiritual women who can feel great contentment
from
> fulfilling practical household duties, knowing what a great light of
> kindness is hidden within these simple tasks.

so we can derive certainly derive joy from this avodah without any taint on
our motives.  In a sense, this contact with the great light of kindness is a
kind of "getting into the flow" and attachment but on a higher level. We are
encouraged to do our avodah besimcha, because it is G-d's will and because
of the tikun we are accomplishing. If we can acknowledge this on a deep
level we cannot help but feel deep joy and contentment.
 If we do a mitzva solely because it is G-d's will and don't manage to get
in touch with that deeper joy we also derive great schar precisely because
we do it without that positive emotional accompaniment. It's a different
kind of avodah.
There is a sicha somewhere ( I think it was from Lubovich) that mentioned
the wonder and awe Moshe Rabenu felt when perceiving a prophecy about our
generation.  When he saw how many of us still do mitzvot even when we are
not fully consciously connected to the root, even though we didn't manage -
or didn't always manage to feel the appropriate simcha-  he realised that
this is truly gevaldig- we get a lot of credit.

Mrs. Gila Atwood.

A few more points.

* Yes, I am indeed sincere in my respect for Rabanit Henkin.

* I had received the very strong impression from the article in Jewish Week
and from the quoted statements of graduates, and in the whole fanfare that
accompanied the graduation, that more authority would be vested in the
yoetzot than might be appropriate at this stage. If this impression is
simply the result of journalism, misquotes etc. I stand corrected.  Rav
Henkin's letter explains their position well, and will be'ezrat Hashem be
published in Yated Ne'eman.

*We're very fortunate, here in Jerusalem, to have relatively easy
availability of highly qualified poskim for many areas, something we could
easily  come to take for granted as someone mentioned- sorry, I forget who.
I have no social contact with the Rav to whom I take shailas- even then my
husband usually takes them for me.  In a small town situation, however, I
can well understand the advantages of a yoetzet to advise, act as liaison
and ensure anonymity.

In my view this is not, or should not be about a MO/RW split, though some on
both sides will see it that way.  It seems to me that this division is very
simplistic and arbitrary- and odious. It would be very difficult to define
many people.  (such as ourselves for that matter) moRW?  MRWO  ?  What
exactly is "right wing" anyway- (bearing in mind you have many chassidic
groups of many flavours as well as the Litvish yeshivish crowd. You also
have moshavim such as Bat Ayin and Modi'in. Where do they fit in? Should
they have to be typed at all?) The issue is complicated by differences
between American and Israeli society, or should I say 'societies'.

Ultimately, we're all in the same boat. We all want avodah and kedushah.  I
think we're all sensitive to "holier than thou" attitudes. They are
obnoxious.  However there is no "holier than thou" merely by the assertion
of values and standards. (I'm not talking about the yoetzet inyan here, I'm
talking generally) If I say, for example, "it's not my shita to wear a
sheitel" am I saying "I'm holier than thou because you wear a sheitel and I
don't" ? It can be taken that way, but from my point of view it means "I
believe it's holier for ME not to wear a sheitel- in this particular inyan".
It's a subtle difference which can be easily misconstrued.

Assigning labels only leads to some degree of demonisation of people who
don't think quite the same way as oneself.  We're all individuals in clal
Israel. I suggest the best way to rid ourselves of the RW/MO tension is to
simply abandon the "definitions", express ahavas Israel and get on with our
real avodah.

Mrs. Gila Atwood.

On 26 Oct 99, at 15:24, Mrs. Gila Atwood wrote:

> * I had received the very strong impression from the article in Jewish Week
> and from the quoted statements of graduates, and in the whole fanfare that
> accompanied the graduation, that more authority would be vested in the
> yoetzot than might be appropriate at this stage. If this impression is
> simply the result of journalism, misquotes etc. I stand corrected.  Rav
> Henkin's letter explains their position well, and will be'ezrat Hashem be
> published in Yated Ne'eman.

As she has done nearly every Tuesday for more than seven years, 
my wife went to her Nishmat class in Navi this morning. Today she 
had occasion to speak with Rabbanit Henkin, who, Adina reports, 
says that she and others were badly misquoted in the Jewish 
Week article (and in another article that appeared in HaAretz which 
was not posted to this list, but which someone - I think Mark 
Feldman - mentioned). Rabbanit Henkin has written a response to 
the Jewish Week, but Adina reports that Rabbanit Henkin 
complained that it took three weeks to publish, and then got 
nowhere near the prominence of the original article. I checked the 
Jewish Week's web site today, and it was not there (maybe 
because the original appeared in the October 8 edition and the 
"current" edition on line is the October 22 edition). In any event, I 
will bli neder post the response when I see it (if no one else has 
posted it), and would ask that if anyone else sees it first, they 
should do the same.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In a message dated 10/26/99 8:06:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
atwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< 
 > I think the the hashkafa that allows the artscrollization of
 > history---------- revision-deletion of facts for moral
 > purposes  should lead
 > directly  to being fast and loose  with the facts to any
 > event that won't
 > fit the chareidi cultural paradigms.
 
 Why automatically bash the chareidim (besides the fact that it's
 fashionable)?
 ======================
I don't think it's automatic or being fashionable.  This issue was the 
subject of a long thread on this network.  There is  a real fear that even if 
the halacha allows (demands?) to be meshaneh in some cases, that this can 
lead to a lack of full appreciation of the mida of emet.  In some cases it 
appears that "the end justifies the means" is being employed in cases where 
halacha would dictate otherwise.
=========================
 *All* movements do it, across the spectrum -- Here in Israel the left is
 equally, if not more so, "fast and loose  with the facts".
 
 Just look at the current history curriculum with the "revised" history of
 the founding of the state.
 
 For that matter, look at the history of the US (WW2 for example) as taught
 50 years ago, 30 years ago, 10 years ago, and today... History has to be PC
 too.
 =============
 and so we shouldn't hold ourselves to the higher standard that halacha 
dictates?  Or if halacha dictates that these tactics be used , then just say 
so and define the reason for the dictate
================
 Akiva
  >>

Kol Tuv
Joel Rich

My own view of what it would take to generate a reconciliation between
different communities within Orthodoxy is a commitment to have
conversations and discussions about that which divides us without
resorting to a tone that is unbecoming, rude or mean spirited.  As a
general matter, as I grow, I become more and more convinced that what
Orthodoxy needs to eliminate from its community is a tone of hatred
towards one another that is frequently manifest in rude or impolite retori
-- independent of the substance, about which we perhaps will never be able
to agree.  Thus, one simply needs to read the various newspaper articles
(and, for that matter, Avodah postings) to sense a tone of mocking and
haughtiness each side to the other.  Rabbis are casually defrocked,
peoples views are dismissed without being argued with, and communities
dismissed.

How to fix this problem in tone?  The only way this can happen is if
members of each community rebuke members of their own community when their
tone is wrong; eventually, one needs to cease supporting institutions that
one agrees with theologically if they do not get the tone right, as wrong
tone is extremely damaging to us all.  Each community of people must
recognize the need to police their own for tone and politeness.

Instead, what happens is that everybody rebukes --- and has a good time at
it too, I must note -- misconduct by their opponents; this, too, is simply
point scoring. Thus, one very rarely sees any form of introspection within
any one of the communities about whether what we -- one's own community --
are behaving properly.  Critics of tone are always from the outside.

Polite individuals build nice pleasant truth seeking communities; rude tone
creates rude communities.

Michael J. Broyde
Rabbi, Young Israel of Toco Hills Atlanta
2074 Lavista Road, Atlanta, GA 30329

In Avodah 4#60, GAtwood wrote:
> We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
You are welcome to browse my website at:
http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs. <
I did browse, and I was so enthralled by its contents (although the
"Health" page could use a "selection" or two :-) that I requested her
permission to FWD this message to all my friends and to recommend it to the
Avodah-list readership.  With permission in hand (or, more precisely, my
"Internet mail" folder :-), take a few minutes out of your busy day/evening
and enjoy!

Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

The concept of Equal Pay for Equal Work should not be seen as a feminist agenda,
nor as a left-wing labor agenda -

Rather -

It should be seen as an element of fairness, justice, equity.  Tzedek, Tzedek, 
Tirdof is a highly pervasive concept in Jewish thinking; the burning call for 
justice runs through our blood for millenia.    

V'shonmru Derech Hashem Laasos Tzedoko uimishpot... (this week's sedra!)

Shortchanging people's compensation based upon their gender or other factors of 
WHO they are as opposed to HOW they perform, and WHAT they produce ought by 
right to be regarded as some form of Ono'o.

Pay people for their job performance, for their contribution, for their 
porfessionalism, not for any "chitzoni'istic" reasons.

Rich Wolpoe

I second the motion.

Truly refreshing.  I especially liked the essay about frum literature
at http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/misc/writing3.html.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

--- Michael Poppers <MPoppers@kayescholer.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> In Avodah 4#60, GAtwood wrote:
> > We are pixels in G-d's imagination.
> You are welcome to browse my website at:
> http://www.bereshitsoftware.com/gila/main.html
> a little Torah, nature, humour, environmental concerns and memoirs.
> <
> I did browse, and I was so enthralled by its contents (although the
> "Health" page could use a "selection" or two :-) that I requested
> her
> permission to FWD this message to all my friends and to recommend
> it to the
> Avodah-list readership.  With permission in hand (or, more
> precisely, my
> "Internet mail" folder :-), take a few minutes out of your busy
> day/evening
> and enjoy!
> 
> Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ
> 
> 
> 


=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

--- "Carl M. Sherer" <csherer@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> OTOH, my personal preference is that where there are chilukei 
> deos, I like to ask - if only so I can do things with a clear 
> conscience. For example, last week I was in the States. Last 
> Sunday was 7 Cheshvan, the day on which we here in Eretz 
> Yisroel start to say Tal uMatar, and I landed in Boston the
> previous 
> Wednesday night. What was I to do in the shtiller Shmoneh Esrei? 
> I looked it up in Yom Tov Sheini k'Hilchoso, and he brought two 
> shitos: R. Moshe held that I should say Tal uMatar in Barech 
> Aleinu, while R. Shlomo Zalman, and l'hibodel bein chayim l'chayim 
> R. Elyoshiv, held that I should say it in Shma Koleinu. I called my
> posek (who is an American oleh like myself), and he said I should 
> follow RSZ's and RYSE's shita.  Yes, I could have been somech on 
> either view, but since I had never confronted the shaila before, I
> felt 
> better asking someone.

As I've written before, my personal preference in this sort of
situation would be to learn through the sevarot of those poskim and
see which most resonate with me (assuming that I consider myself on
the level with regard to the halacha at hand).  Your posek is an
American oleh like yourself, so perhaps what I described is
implicitly going on.  But, I wonder: did his decision to follow R. SZ
& R. Elyashiv derive from some personal connection that he had to
them.  Would the answer have been different if he had a greater
personal connection to Rav Moshe?  It seems so arbitrary to me; I
prefer to make the decision myself.

Kol tuv,
Moshe


=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

In a message dated 10/26/99 12:39:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< 
 Shortchanging people's compensation based upon their gender or other factors 
of 
 WHO they are as opposed to HOW they perform, and WHAT they produce ought by 
 right to be regarded as some form of Ono'o. >>
It could be argued that they are not being shortchanged due to gender but due 
to supply and demand factors - is that Ono'o?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

    I just want to clarify my intent in my original posting on this subject. 
Granted that over time and in many places NCSY has had a terrific kiruv 
record among the non-fruhm teenagers in public schools. 
    Today's reality is, however, that the vast majority of NCSY participants 
are Yeshiva HS students. I grant that there is a great need for Chizuk in 
this population, and that NCSY does a great job in that area. However, in 
most areas they are not reaching out to the public school teens in great 
numbers. Either NCSY should re-direct it's resources, or another program 
needs to be put in place.
    David I. Cohen

On 26 Oct 99, at 10:25, Moshe Feldman wrote:

> --- "Carl M. Sherer" <csherer@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> > OTOH, my personal preference is that where there are chilukei 
> > deos, I like to ask - if only so I can do things with a clear 
> > conscience. For example, last week I was in the States. Last 
> > Sunday was 7 Cheshvan, the day on which we here in Eretz 
> > Yisroel start to say Tal uMatar, and I landed in Boston the
> > previous 
> > Wednesday night. What was I to do in the shtiller Shmoneh Esrei? 
> > I looked it up in Yom Tov Sheini k'Hilchoso, and he brought two 
> > shitos: R. Moshe held that I should say Tal uMatar in Barech 
> > Aleinu, while R. Shlomo Zalman, and l'hibodel bein chayim l'chayim 
> > R. Elyoshiv, held that I should say it in Shma Koleinu. I called my
> > posek (who is an American oleh like myself), and he said I should 
> > follow RSZ's and RYSE's shita.  Yes, I could have been somech on 
> > either view, but since I had never confronted the shaila before, I
> > felt 
> > better asking someone.
> 
> As I've written before, my personal preference in this sort of
> situation would be to learn through the sevarot of those poskim and
> see which most resonate with me (assuming that I consider myself on
> the level with regard to the halacha at hand).  Your posek is an
> American oleh like yourself, so perhaps what I described is
> implicitly going on.  But, I wonder: did his decision to follow R. SZ
> & R. Elyashiv derive from some personal connection that he had to
> them.  Would the answer have been different if he had a greater
> personal connection to Rav Moshe?  It seems so arbitrary to me; I
> prefer to make the decision myself.

I didn't quiz him on the whys. I do know that in other areas he tells 
people that they should follow R. Moshe's shitos.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In a message dated 10/26/99 12:39:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< 
 Shortchanging people's compensation based upon their gender or other factors 
of 
 WHO they are as opposed to HOW they perform, and WHAT they produce ought by 
 right to be regarded as some form of Ono'o. >>
It could be argued that they are not being shortchanged due to gender but due 
to supply and demand factors - is that Ono'o?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich<<

Question: What if the job description were as follows:

For grandson of a Gadol we will pay 100k, for all others we will pay 50k?

Certainly Grandchildren of Gedolim are in shorter supply than just plain old 
descendants of Avrohom, Yitachok, and Yaakov....

Rich Wolpoe

In a message dated 10/26/99 2:02:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< 
 Question: What if the job description were as follows:
 
 For grandson of a Gadol we will pay 100k, for all others we will pay 50k?
 
 Certainly Grandchildren of Gedolim are in shorter supply than just plain old 
 descendants of Avrohom, Yitachok, and Yaakov....
 
 Rich Wolpoe
 
  >>
and on pure economic theory the decision to have this type of pay arrangement 
would be justified if the expected economic benefit of having a gadol's son 
on staff makes the additional investment worthwhile(as in " xyz must be a 
great yeshiva, after all , abc's son is a rosh yeshiva there!") 

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

  
and on pure economic theory the decision to have this type of pay arrangement 
would be justified if the expected economic benefit of having a gadol's son 
on staff makes the additional investment worthwhile(as in " xyz must be a 
great yeshiva, after all , abc's son is a rosh yeshiva there!") 

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich<<

Question:  What would Madison Avenue do with: "al tistakel bakankan, elo bema 
sheyeish bo?

Rich Wolpoe 

********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]