Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 062

Monday, October 25 1999

• Dayyanut exam of the Rabbanut in Israel
• [none]
• [none]
• Ed Echad and female rabbis
• Yated and the Aliens
• R. Lichtenstein and the Neologs
• RE: Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis
• RE: Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis
• RE: to ask a shaila or to take advice?
• Motivation?
• RE: Yoatzot
• Re: Rashi -Bereshis 18:4
• What is a Rabbi/Posek
• Re: Motivation?
• re: Yoatzot - Poskot

If there is anything similar to certification of a posek, it may be
the dayyanut exam of the Rabbanut in Israel which is obtained about
3 years of intensive study after YADIN YADIN smicha.

Josh

Subject: who is a tzadik

The following is from Rabbi Frand's recent book:
Eli Turkel

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you  know what a tzaddik is? A tzaddik is not necessarily a person
that doesn't do an aveirah.  A tzaddik is a person who falls again and
again but gets up each time.
   A talmid of Rav Yitzchak Hutner once wrote to him about his frustrations
in the spiritual realm, "I'm tired. I try so hard, but I don't see myself
getting any better.  I don't see growth.  It's such a difficult struggle."
"Never give up," Rav Hutner wrote back, "Sheva yipol tzaddik vekam.
That's what it's all about.  The battles, the struggles, that's a tzaddik.
What do you think the passuk means?  That a tzaddik gets up even though
he falls?  That misses the entire point.  The true intent of Shlomo
Hamelech is to teach us that the way to rise is through repeated falls.
You become a tzaddik by falling down and rising.  You grow from the
experience and become a better person.  Growth comes from struggle.
It is not automatic. You can't coast and grow. You've got to fight to grow.
You've got to struggle to grow.  You may lose the battles. You may fight
and lose them.  But you can win the war.  You can become bigger by the
falls, by the foibles, by the stumbling.  That is the road to becoming
a tzaddik.  We can grow from our struggles."
   In his letter, Rav Hutner goes on to bemoan the popular biographies of
gedolim that portray them as perfect people from the womb.  The typical
gadol about whom our children read washed negel vasser on his own when 
he was 1 year old.  He knew Mishnayos when he was 6. He never fought 
with his brothers and sisters.  He knew the entire Shas by age 13, 
wrote a brilliant sefer by 20 and was a tzaddik every moment of his 
entire life.  So what's the reaction of the reader? This is not a human 
being.  This is an angel.  It's an interesting story, but what does it 
have to do with me?  But that's not how one becomes a tzaddik.  That's 
not who our gedolim were.  They were very human, they were very normal, 
and they had their battles and they had their struggles.  They 
persevered and emerged victorious.
   It is not my intent, of course, to discourage people from giving these
books to their children.  When I was growing up in America, the only
biographies available for children in the English language were about
people like Lou Gehrig and Amelia Earhart.  How blessed we are that
today we can give our children biographies of tzaddikim and gedolim.
But how much more blessed we would be if these biographies would convey
the struggles that made them tzaddikim.  How much better if they would
demonstrate that each and every one of our children can rise without
limit if they undertake the struggle with courage and determination.
     The entire world stands in awe of the Chafetz Chaim, of his tzidkus
and his battle against lashon hara.  Did the Chafetz Chaim ever speak 
lashon hara?  Probably never, we think, and certainly not after his bar 
mitzvah.
     But can we really be certain about this?  This is the delicate 
question Rav Hutner poses in that same letter.  "Who can possibly know," 
he writes, "about all the battles, the struggles, the pitfalls, the 
failures and the setbacks the Chafetz Chaim experienced in his battle 
against lashon hara?"
    It certainly wasn't easy.  The Chafetz Chaim, just like the rest of 
us, had a yetzer hara, and he undoubtedly had to struggle against it.  
He may have fallen, but he got up again.  He never gave up.  He never 
threw up his hands on Erev Yom Kippur and told himself he was no better 
than before.  He was a relentless fighter who never accepted defeat.

Subject: who is a tzadik

The following is from Rabbi Frand's recent book:
Eli Turkel

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you  know what a tzaddik is? A tzaddik is not necessarily a person
that doesn't do an aveirah.  A tzaddik is a person who falls again and
again but gets up each time.
   A talmid of Rav Yitzchak Hutner once wrote to him about his frustrations
in the spiritual realm, "I'm tired. I try so hard, but I don't see myself
getting any better.  I don't see growth.  It's such a difficult struggle."
"Never give up," Rav Hutner wrote back, "Sheva yipol tzaddik vekam.
That's what it's all about.  The battles, the struggles, that's a tzaddik.
What do you think the passuk means?  That a tzaddik gets up even though
he falls?  That misses the entire point.  The true intent of Shlomo
Hamelech is to teach us that the way to rise is through repeated falls.
You become a tzaddik by falling down and rising.  You grow from the
experience and become a better person.  Growth comes from struggle.
It is not automatic. You can't coast and grow. You've got to fight to grow.
You've got to struggle to grow.  You may lose the battles. You may fight
and lose them.  But you can win the war.  You can become bigger by the
falls, by the foibles, by the stumbling.  That is the road to becoming
a tzaddik.  We can grow from our struggles."
   In his letter, Rav Hutner goes on to bemoan the popular biographies of
gedolim that portray them as perfect people from the womb.  The typical
gadol about whom our children read washed negel vasser on his own when 
he was 1 year old.  He knew Mishnayos when he was 6. He never fought 
with his brothers and sisters.  He knew the entire Shas by age 13, 
wrote a brilliant sefer by 20 and was a tzaddik every moment of his 
entire life.  So what's the reaction of the reader? This is not a human 
being.  This is an angel.  It's an interesting story, but what does it 
have to do with me?  But that's not how one becomes a tzaddik.  That's 
not who our gedolim were.  They were very human, they were very normal, 
and they had their battles and they had their struggles.  They 
persevered and emerged victorious.
   It is not my intent, of course, to discourage people from giving these
books to their children.  When I was growing up in America, the only
biographies available for children in the English language were about
people like Lou Gehrig and Amelia Earhart.  How blessed we are that
today we can give our children biographies of tzaddikim and gedolim.
But how much more blessed we would be if these biographies would convey
the struggles that made them tzaddikim.  How much better if they would
demonstrate that each and every one of our children can rise without
limit if they undertake the struggle with courage and determination.
     The entire world stands in awe of the Chafetz Chaim, of his tzidkus
and his battle against lashon hara.  Did the Chafetz Chaim ever speak 
lashon hara?  Probably never, we think, and certainly not after his bar 
mitzvah.
     But can we really be certain about this?  This is the delicate 
question Rav Hutner poses in that same letter.  "Who can possibly know," 
he writes, "about all the battles, the struggles, the pitfalls, the 
failures and the setbacks the Chafetz Chaim experienced in his battle 
against lashon hara?"
    It certainly wasn't easy.  The Chafetz Chaim, just like the rest of 
us, had a yetzer hara, and he undoubtedly had to struggle against it.  
He may have fallen, but he got up again.  He never gave up.  He never 
threw up his hands on Erev Yom Kippur and told himself he was no better 
than before.  He was a relentless fighter who never accepted defeat.

In  #58, Russell Hendel writes, "We learn that one witness is believed in
issur-heter from women not from men.

So....the institution of a female Rabbi was NOT CREATED by Rabbanit
Henkin. It was created by Moshe Rabaynu. 
	
Also it is logical...you can't have issuray careth involving women's
status unless you trust them."

Am I missing something here? What does eligibility to attest have to do
with being a rabbi? If an am-haaretz gamur testifies that he saw a piece
of meat salted and soaked, he is believed.  Does this make him a rabbi,
or a posek in matters of kashrus?  

In the same issue,  a posuk is transliterated as "vayotzei oisoi."  What
manner of word is oisoi? Bad enough that the cholam is mispronounced.
Does it also have to be mistransliterated?
Sadya N. Targum

___________________________________________________________________
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I am amazed that people are spilling electronic ink in an attempt to
'demonstrate" the alleged failings of Yated as a paper of record. i recently
returned from the Giant (our local supermarket chain) where I was treated to
the usual display of "newspapers" at the checkout counter.  I confess I
occasionally find some of the trumpeted headlines irresistible and peruse
the stories while stuck on line - I mean, who can fail to be intrigued by
the astonishing news that liz taylor, who may or may not have undergone a
sex change operation while kidnapped aboard a UFO, has given secret birth to
a three headed alien baby of gender hitherto unknown to science after
impregnation by michael jackson who is now revealed to be... well you can
guess the rest (come to think of it that does have a certain explanatory
power to it).  Just as we would not, I hope, waste valuable time writing
factually based rebuttals to the editor of these tabloids (assuming for the
moment, just for the sake of this line of argument, that mr.jackson is not
really..) I am surprised to see such energy expended in deconstructing the
tendentious loshone hora and am aratzus (in its broadest sense) which one
associates with such a publication as though it were something to be treated
seriously by reasonably informed people.   

Now that i'm on a press bashing roll, I confess to amazement as well that
RYGB would "balance" the evils of the RW (i.e yated) press with the equally
unreliable LW press (no argument there at least in principle, i'm just not
sure what a LW press equivalent is) as exemplified by The Jewish Press (!?).
Huh? not to defend the JP - which indeed ought be sold at the supermarket
counter along with the Inquirer and Yated and has a similar credibility
rating - how did that get to be the representative of the LW? not being a
card carrying member of any particular wing myself I would invite those LW
avodah members to comment on whether this publication reflects their views -
while I haven't really read it in more than a decade I somehow have a hard
time picturing R. Berman or (depending where your wing starts jutting) R.
Riskin publishing their manifestos here. let alone that arch leftfiend R.
Lamm. 

And while a number of posters have written in general praise of the Jewish
Observer (in presumed contrast to yated), let us not leave the impression
that this is a universal appreciation.  In fact (IMHO of course) the JO
ranks not much higher than Yated in the integrity department with its main
advantage over Yated being it doesn't appear as often and thus can not
spread mean spirited misinformation quite as frequently.  (of course this is
not true of every piece that appears, in the interests of both list comity
and emes, I would naturally exempt among others those penned by our own
RYGB). To be sure I have not read anything in the JO in many years - I
confess I think of them, if at all, with only reflexive contempt ever since
their scurrilous and disgraceful treatment of the Rov's (i.e. RYBS) pi'toroh
(which R. tendler publically called them on at the time and, true to form,
they blew off) - and of course would be pleased, though surprised, to learn
they have changed their odious modus operandi since then. 

Finally, returning to Yated - and setting aside minor issues such as
substance or slander or anything like that - I am puzzled by a more general
disconnect that I have not seen remarked elsewhere.  And that is their name.
Given the constituent community I believe they are trying to reflect, I
would have thought they would eschew any whiff of
zionist/hascoloh/modernizing taint in favor of imagined 19th or 18th century
norms,  when god was in his heaven, the boys were in yeshivoh and the women
were in the kitchen, at least when they weren't slaving to support the
former.  Thus I would think that they would call their publication Yoseid or
some such rather than the very modern israeli-sepharadi style
transliteration adopted.

Mechy Frankel					W: (703) 325-1277
michael.frankel@dtra.mil			H: (301) 593-3949
mechyfrankel@zdnetonebox.com

REClark writes:
<On this issue he finds an example dating to 1865, in the fight led by R.
Hillel Lichtenstein against the neologues in Hungary. This topic is of
course addressed in his book, Ha'kera she-Lo Nit'aheh. Katz's article on
da'as Torah, however, appears in a volume entitled Bein Samkhut
le-Autonmiyah, ed. >
halivai that r. lichtenstein's attentions had been directed just at the
neologs.  in fact, the bais hillel was wont to attack anything that moved,
in perhaps the most aggressive, insulting, and intolerant display of a
public personna on a mission from god to root out the faintest whiff of
'modernist' heresy in the 19th century - and considering that his public
career was carried out in hungary/transylvania where the competition for
that itzteloh was quite fierce (only modesty prevents me from noting that
others might consider some of my own relatives quite competitive here), that
is saying quite a lot. Come to think of it since most of his career was
spent "eating his own" i.e. attacking the frumme yidden (including e.g. such
noted collaborator-sell outs as the kisav sofer), he might well - to loosely
connect to another thread -  have enjoyed the opportunity to subscribe to
Yated had it been available. (on a private level, the sanzer rebbe, with
whom he was buddies, testified in a hascomoh that r. hillel's actions were
all carried out lishem shomayim - which, despite this plug from the divrei
chayim, may not have made them go down any easier). 

REli also writes: <Larry Kaplan's>famous (or -charedi - infamous) article on
daas torah> As many are aware, Kaplan was criticized and later conceded that
his article, in daring the origin of the term "da'as Torah," relied overmuch
on G. Bacon's work on Agudah to the exclusion of Piekarz's study of
nineteenth century Polish hasidut.> 
Though its been some long time since I've actually read the kaplan article I
believe I recall him referencing Piekarz's "chasidut polin".

Mechy Frankel					W: (703) 325-1277
michael.frankel@dtra.mil			H: (301) 593-3949
mechyfrankel@zdnetonebox.com

On 25 Oct 99, at 12:37, Akiva Atwood wrote:

> >From the Jewish Week article of Oct 8th (I could post the article to the
> list if desired).

Please do.

>       Two years later, eight graduate scholars are about to begin
> poskening, or ruling, on certain questions once reserved for rabbis.

I hope that the author of the Jewish Week article also understands 
the difference between giving a psak and reading a halacha out of 
the Shulchan Aruch.... However, my recollection is that these 
exact words appeared in the Post, which leads me to believe that it 
was some sort of wire service dispatch, and which makes me 
further question whether the author knows the difference between 
rendering a psak and quoting the Shulchan Aruch.

> The move, according to Orthodox authorities, is nothing short of
> revolutionary. While Reform and Conservative women rabbis have made
> halachic rulings for many years, “this is the first time in history
> that [Orthodox] women have been authorized [by Orthodox rabbis] to
> answer questions in Jewish law,” according to Rabbanit Emunah Henkin,
> the director of Nishmat and the driving force behind the initiative.
> “This is quite remarkable.”

There is a difference between answering questions and rendering 
psak. We've seen countless examples of that during the course of 
the discussion on this list in the last two weeks.

> and
> 
>       “There is a feeling of awe, something like finishing medical
> school, when you realize how much responsibility you’ve been given.
> You have a lot of authority and hope you’ll use it wisely,” she said.

Authority does not necessarily equal the ability to pasken. My 
guess is that if a yoetzet tells a woman that she does not need to 
ask a shaila the odds are that the woman will not ask a shaila. 
That strikes me as "a lot of authority" (or maybe influence would be 
a better word), and I am confident that the persons giving such 
advice will have proper yiras shamayim so as not to abuse that 
trust.

> What's important are the *actions* being proposed, not the labels.

I agree, but most of the people writing these articles are at a loss 
for describing the actions (and now that I have seen what you 
posted from the Jewish Week article, I suspect that the person 
who wrote the article in Yated did not interview the yoatzot, but 
only quoted from the Jewish Week and other such articles with 
their own editorial commentary). 

While I can see a potential halachic problem with women 
paskening ksomim (as I raised this morning), and while I cannot 
share R. Woolf's total confidence that this development is 
wonderful (because I am repulsed hashkafically at much of the OF 
"Agenda" and I fear that the institution of yoatzot will be used to 
advance that agenda), I think that the idea of having knowledgable 
women who can help other women by taking some of the 
embarassment out of THM shailas is, on balance, a positive 
development, and should at least be given a chance to play itself 
out before it is condemned.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

--- Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> > This attitude makes me so angry.  Rather than
> > recognizing a positive development in the MO camp
> > which would go a long way towards a raproachmont
> of
> > the Right and the Left.
> 
> Just *how* is it a positive deployment?
> 
> > That doesn't mean that the
> > Right couldn't have legitimate disagreement with
> the
> > program.  But the disagreement should be
> respectful
> > and be spelled out in detail. Instead what we have
> is
> > a lot of "holier than thous" from the Right.
> 
> The disagreement *is* spelled out. See below.
> 
> > what the specific objections RW has
> > of the Nishmat program.
> 
> To quote from the post:
> 
> > > "More importantly, however, unlike Nishmat,
> neither
> > > of these two kosher
> > > programs has ever made the outrageous claim that
> > > their graduates are, “the
> > > new poseks of Orthodox women.”
> >
> 
> You can't get much clearer than that.

The positive value of the Yoatzot program has been
discussed ad infinitum and I'm not going to repeat
myself, or others. 

Now, lets look at the tone of the pull quote.. Two
"kosher" programs. The obvious inference is that the
Nishmat program is "Treif".  Why? Is it because
someone in the article reffered to them as Poskot?   I
reiterate if they were poskot then that's what the
program what have titled their graduates. But they are
NOT titled Poskot but Yoatzot...ADVISORS! Sounds
pretty self explanatory to me, especially since it
clear that they have poskim they can relate difficult
shailos to.  

Another thing.  "Outrageous claims"? That's
respectful!!! I strongly suspect that the true
objections are POLITICAL in nature.  I have yet to see
the details of both the Charedi programs and the
Niashmat program spelled out.

Also, I see nothing wrong with someone of either
gender, based on years os studying shas and Poskim,
being able to paskin shailos especially if they have
had Shimush by other poskim.  The likelihood of a
woman doing something like this on her own is
unrelated to it's propriety.

Finally, I challange you to go Yeshivas Mir in
Jerusalem (student population approx. 3500), and find
amongst it's musmachim, all of whom have been given a
Heter Hora'ah which is the very nature of Smicha, any
significant number of Poskim. And how many Musmachim
are there who think they can paskin just because they
have smicha.  I'd be willing to bet that the graduates
of the Nishmat Yoatzot Program are far more qualified
in Hilchos Niddah than are most Musmachim of the last
30 years. Perhaps Nishmat should open up a program for
Musmachim.

HM

=====

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On 25 Oct 99, at 12:51, Akiva Atwood wrote:

> > > But the graduates of the program *do*, at least in public
> > and to the press.
> >
> 
> > WHERE did you see that? And what psak do you think they are
> > giving? If I open a Shulchan Aruch and it says that if I forget Tal
> > uMatar I should say it in Shma Koleinu and I tell that din over to my
> > friend who has forgotten Tal uMatar in Shmoneh Esrei, is that
> > giving psak?
> 
> No -- that's giving over a m'forash halacha. Examining a Kesem and deciding
> if the woman is Tahor or not based on "experience" (recognizing the colors)
> and a knowledge of the halachic opinions (deciding *in this case* based on
> the various opinions) is P'sak.

I agree that would be psak (and it may even be din, which has a 
more defined status in halacha), but everything I have seen coming 
from Nishmat and Machon Ariel (as opposed to what one sees in 
the press) denies that is what they intend to do.

> > If what you're trying to say is that the problem with the yoatzot is
> > that it is part of the same agenda as the Women of the Wall and
> > other such, I'm not sure that it is, but I do share your fear of that
> > agenda.
> 
> I don't think that's it's part of the same agenda -- but how much of the
> motivation is a desire to help women, and how much is a feministic desire
> for "equality"? I don't know, but it does bother me.

As I mentioned earlier, one of the women involved is my wife's 
niece, and I have known her since she was a child (I'm married to 
the youngest child - all of my wife's siblings were married before us 
and this niece is the oldest child of my wife's oldest sister). She 
never struck me as being a rabid "feminist." Obviously, others on 
the list are not going to accept that on my say-so, but I find it hard 
to believe knowing her as I do that she got involved with this for any 
reason other than a desire to help other women and probably a 
desire to learn. Why not judge these women lechaf zchus, that 
their motives are pure and not a means of furthering someone 
else's agenda?

> > But I have heard enough from enough contemporary
> > (Charedi) poskim about how women are NOT asking questions to
> > be willing to take that risk.
> >
> 
> Yoetzes, as advisors, serve a definite need, even in the charedi community.

I certainly agree with that but some other people on the list have 
disagreed rather strongly.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

I do not think anyone here has questioned the yiras shomayim of those
involved in the program, nor has anyone here said that one need be an OF to
be involved in the study of Hil. Nidda. But Rebbetzin Henkin's personal
agenda - albeit, no doubt, motivated by here own sense of ratzon Hashem,
with which others will disagree - is evident from the passages below which
are here own words. To whit, her pupose is to create "Atzumim" - women who
are ra'ui l'horo'oh and must, therefore, be moreh halocho. This is verbatim
from her essay cited by R' Akiva Miller long ago here.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org


Finally, the Gemara in Sota (22a) and again in Avoda Zara (19b) warns
against those who issue halakhic rulings although unqualified to do so.
"Rabim chalalim hipila-ze talmid chakham shelo higi'a lehora'a umore." But,
"va'atzumim kol harugeha-ze talmid chakham shehigi'a lehora'a ve'eino more."
"'[Hora'a] has felled many'-that is a scholar who has not reached the
stature of ruling and yet rules; 'and great are her fallen'-that is a
scholar who has indeed reached the stature of ruling yet does not rule."

So what of women? Will they remain in the category of rabim chalalim hipila,
unqualified candidates for hora'a who might fell many, or will women reach
the level of va'atzumim kol harugeha, those scholars who should issue
rulings lest "great are her fallen"?

First of all, I want to say-as the head of a learning institution which is
qualifying women to address questions of hilkhot nidda in practice-we should
stop using the term poskot. I turn to the rabbis and to the women who are
using the term and I beg them to stop. It is not accurate, not constructive
and it will not result in poskot. Ein habrakha metzuya ela bedavar hasamuy
min ha'ayin, constructive changes will not be made in the glare of
spotlights. We are embarked on a tantalizing journey toward va'atzumim,
learned women with the profound Torah scholarship, force of religious
personality, and penetrating insight which will lead the community to seek
them out as halakhic authorities, perhaps initially specializing in areas of
Halakha which relate to women or which demand mastery of highly technical,
scientific material. As we proceed along this journey, we should not
casually and prematurely use a terminology that presumes a greater level of
Torah accomplishment than we have yet achieved. A process is underway, and
it can only be harmed by sensationalism. Second, our major concern must be
the Halakha. Not for the purpose of empowering women, but enabling women to
observe mitzvot meticulously, to blossom with the full richness of the
fabric of the religious experience.

In order to meticulously observe the Halakha, women need women! For reasons
of modesty, women do not wish to, and often will not, discuss a hilkhot
nidda question with a man. The consequences of a shayla (question pertaining
to Jewish law) not asked can range from improper observance of the Halakha
to marital anguish and even to infertility. As little as ten years ago, we
had no solution to this problem. Today, we are witnessing, before our eyes,
with profound emotion and gratitude to HaKadosh Barukh Hu, the emergence of
a first generation of talmudically-literate women who will be able to advise
other women in this field. They are committed to the Halakha and devoted to
their fellow women. We must utilize this precious new resource of learned
women to inspire piety and devotion to Torah in other women.

--- Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> 
> > At any rate this
> > program seems to be a good idea regardless of what
> > generated it as long as it is not femminist
> driven.
> 
> But *how* do we define "Feminist Driven"? That is a
> key factor in this case.
> 
> Akiva

I agree.

As a famous supreme court justice once said about
pornography, "maybe I can't define it but I know it
when I see it." I don't think we would have too
difficult a time identifying femminist attitudes and
weeding them out.  The obvious key to success is not
to pollute the proccess with ideas foriegn to the
Torah such as femminism. 

HM
 


=====

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In a message dated 10/24/99 10:38:22 PM EST, millerr@mail.biu.ac.il writes:

> Can anyone help me with the above Rashi
>  
>  We know that etz=elan
>  
>  I saw the Sifsay Chachomim but it seems dachuk.
>  
Perhaps, here Rashi needs to specify, as we just learned that Avrohom Avinu 
told them to wash their feet as he didn't want A"Z in his "house," that might 
imply that they were brought into the house, and Eitz would refer to a piece 
of wood in the house/tent.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

To be a Dayan or even a Posek is a reputational thing.  I think one thing 
that gets lost in discussions with respect to things like the agunah issue 
and even the current yotzoat issue is there is no such thing as somebody who 
shailos posek for a community for the personal satisfaction or the power 
they might derive from doing so b/c no frum community is going to let such a 
person pasken for very long regardless of their learning (i.e., yesterday's 
daf yomi where Reish Lekish is told to remove himself from communal 
affairs).  Likewise, no Rav who wants to sleep at night is going to take 
upon themselves such obligations either.

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--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> I do not think anyone here has questioned the yiras
> shomayim of those
> involved in the program, nor has anyone here said
> that one need be an OF to
> be involved in the study of Hil. Nidda. But
> Rebbetzin Henkin's personal
> agenda - albeit, no doubt, motivated by here own
> sense of ratzon Hashem,
> with which others will disagree - is evident from
> the passages below which
> are here own words. To whit, her pupose is to create
> "Atzumim" - women who
> are ra'ui l'horo'oh and must, therefore, be moreh
> halocho. This is verbatim
> from her essay cited by R' Akiva Miller long ago
> here.

If this program were geared to males only to produce
Yoatzim, would we be having this discussion?  

HM 


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Rabbi Bechhofer wrote in Avodah 4:60 --

<<< I hit upon a way to crystalize one of my hesitations that I hitherto
was incapable of articulating ...
<<< There is, no where that I know, a course that certifies one as a
"Posek". The conventional Heter Horo'o, as we well know, certifies
nothing. Conversely, one may be uncertified and still pasken reasonably
well (i.e., the Chofetz Chaim). There are many Rabbis, even Rabbonim,
here in Chicago, yet few that pasken Nidda. None were certified as
"Poskim". By dint of erudition and reputation, they became the Poskim of
the city (no shingles). The concept of certifying "Yo'atzot" - "Poskot" -
by another name - is not the commonly accepted mahalach. >>>

It sounds to me like RYGB considers the terms "yoatzot" and "poskot" as
reasonably equivalent, and the objection is that becoming *certified* as
a posek "is not the commonly accepted mahalach".

The simple solution is to reject the equivalence of the terms "yoatzot"
and "poskot". Instead, let's do the following two things: (1) Consider
the terms "yoatzot" and "musmachim" as reasonably equivalent. (2) Educate
the common public that "the conventional Heter Horo'o, as we well know,
certifies nothing."

If we can do those two simple things, then the yoatzot will have the same
status as male musmachim, will be able to answer the same questions as
male mushmachim can, and the status of Posek (whether male or female)
will continue to be acheived only "by dint of erudition and reputation" -
as well it should be.

Akiva Miller
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