Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 061

Monday, October 25 1999

• Rashi -Bereshis 18:4
• RE: Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis
• RE: to ask a shaila or to take advice?
• RE: What is a Rabbi
• RE: Bias in Jewish Publications
• RE: Writing a letter to the editor of Yated
• RE: Yoatzot
• RE: Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis
• RE: What is a Rabbi
• RE: to ask a shaila or to take advice?
• Paskening Maros (was Re: Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis)
• Re: Mikva Ladies, Yoatzot and Qualified Poskim (was Re: Mikvah Ladies)
• RE: Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis
• Re: Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis
• Re: Answer to HM: Most people do Mitzvoth for Social reasons (Bracoth)
• Re: Destruction of Hungarian Jewry
• RE: What is a Rabbi
• RE: Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis
• RE: to ask a shaila or to take advice?

Can anyone help me with the above Rashi

We know that etz=elan

I saw the Sifsay Chachomim but it seems dachuk.


kol tuv

Reuven


ps did you understand the chapter 11 of shaulson???

> This attitude makes me so angry.  Rather than
> recognizing a positive development in the MO camp
> which would go a long way towards a raproachmont of
> the Right and the Left.

Just *how* is it a positive deployment?

> That doesn't mean that the
> Right couldn't have legitimate disagreement with the
> program.  But the disagreement should be respectful
> and be spelled out in detail. Instead what we have is
> a lot of "holier than thous" from the Right.

The disagreement *is* spelled out. See below.

> what the specific objections RW has
> of the Nishmat program.

To quote from the post:

> > "More importantly, however, unlike Nishmat, neither
> > of these two kosher
> > programs has ever made the outrageous claim that
> > their graduates are, “the
> > new poseks of Orthodox women.”
>

You can't get much clearer than that.

Akiva

> > squeamish to go to a male gynocologist,
>
> This comparison is too simplistic.  Perhaps some women
> are squeemish but go anyway.

They're willing to go to a male doctor for an Internal, but they won't show
a white piece of cloth to a male Rabbi?

>
> > Rav Brandsdorfer, Rav of Toldos Aharon, encourages
> > the women of his
> > community to go to a female gynocologist.
>
> I think this is probably a good idea.

He also expects the women to bring both the Hefsek T'hara and Moch Dochok to
him, irregardless of their state. He also prefers that women bring *all 7
days* bedikas to him.


> A. You can't educate away embarrassment.

Of course you can -- ask any male gynocologist. Or ask any teenager who has
been watching movies with nudity and sexual content for years...

>
> B. "Simpler" isn't always better.

Occam's Razor...

>
> C. If you define these Yoatzot as poskot so be it. To
> paraphrase Shaekspeare, "A rose by any other name is
> still a rose"  Just remember the program does not
> define them that way hence the name "Yoatzot".

But the graduates of the program *do*, at least in public and to the press.


>
> E. As R. Aaron told me yesterday, all women should be
> studying in this program.

provided it is not femminist driven, as he also said.

> In (cynical passing) how many Rabbanim have studied TM for
> 2000 hours
>

The typical Posek in these matters has probably spent *much* more than
that -- I know Dayanim in Meah Shearim who still, after decades of
poskening, still spend several hours a day studying the halachot of THM.

Akiva

>
> When a periodical sets itself up as seekers of truth
> as I believed this periodical did and then censors in
> a way that is only known to the editors, it loses it's
> credibility. They become no better than the Jewish
> Observer whose editorial policies have the same degree
> of censorship vis-a-vis anything they disagree with.
> They only publish articles and letters favorable to
> their point of view. It seems that this periodical
> does the same.
>

1) The Jewish Observer's editorial policy is known to everyone. They make no
attempt to hide it.

2) There's no censorship there (the word is commonly misused these days). If
I write an article questioning Torah m'Sinai and submit it to the JO, and
they refuse to publish it -- that is *not* censorship. It's a reflection of
an editorial policy. Tikkun magazine won't publish articles against
Homosexuality, for example, even though they declare themselves committed to
Free Speech.

> If it's anti the Yated viewpoint, it won't get
> published.
>

But letters critical of certain articles *can* be published, even in the
Yated.

Akiva

> At any rate this
> program seems to be a good idea regardless of what
> generated it as long as it is not femminist driven.

But *how* do we define "Feminist Driven"? That is a key factor in this case.

Akiva

> 
> I don't think Yoatzot are poskim any more tham most
> musmachim are.

But the graduates of the program are saying that they are.

> 
> However, As I said earlier to you today, If a
> particularly bright woman would put herself through
> the years of rigorous training by learning shas and
> poskim for many many years, and would prove herself on
> par in "Learning" and psak halacha with her male
> counter parts ...what's the problem?

None -- and Rav Feldman said as much.

On 25 Oct 99, at 9:04, Akiva Atwood wrote:

> > In (cynical passing) how many Rabbanim have studied TM for
> > 2000 hours
> >
> 
> The typical Posek in these matters has probably spent *much* more than
> that -- I know Dayanim in Meah Shearim who still, after decades of
> poskening, still spend several hours a day studying the halachot of THM.

I think the original poster meant to ask how many poskim spend 
2000 hours studying THM BEFORE they start to pasken shailas.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 25 Oct 99, at 9:01, Akiva Atwood wrote:

> > > squeamish to go to a male gynocologist,
> >
> > This comparison is too simplistic.  Perhaps some women
> > are squeemish but go anyway.
> 
> They're willing to go to a male doctor for an Internal, but they won't show
> a white piece of cloth to a male Rabbi?

I could see that. Especially if the male doctor is someone that they 
never meet in any other context, while the Rabbi is someone they 
see in shul every Shabbos, who learns with their husband several 
times a week or who teaches their son or daughter in school (all of 
which could be the case in a small community).

> > > Rav Brandsdorfer, Rav of Toldos Aharon, encourages
> > > the women of his
> > > community to go to a female gynocologist.
> >
> > I think this is probably a good idea.
> 
> He also expects the women to bring both the Hefsek T'hara and Moch Dochok to
> him, irregardless of their state. He also prefers that women bring *all 7
> days* bedikas to him.

And for a woman who grows up in the Toldos Aharon community 
with that type of expectation that is all probably quite natural. But 
what about the woman who is a ba'alas tshuva who grew up in a 
totally different environment, or the woman who grew up in a 
different town and is suddenly expected to show her bedika cloths 
to a starnge Rav, or the town where a young Rav suddenly moves 
in and becomes the posek for the town. Can't you agree that there 
may be some discomfort?

> > A. You can't educate away embarrassment.
> 
> Of course you can -- ask any male gynocologist. Or ask any teenager who has
> been watching movies with nudity and sexual content for years...

That's not education - it's more like getting used to it. It will help 
the couple who has been married ten or fifteen or twenty years; it 
won't help the newlyweds. 

> > C. If you define these Yoatzot as poskot so be it. To
> > paraphrase Shaekspeare, "A rose by any other name is
> > still a rose"  Just remember the program does not
> > define them that way hence the name "Yoatzot".
> 
> But the graduates of the program *do*, at least in public and to the press.

WHERE did you see that? And what psak do you think they are 
giving? If I open a Shulchan Aruch and it says that if I forget Tal 
uMatar I should say it in Shma Koleinu and I tell that din over to my 
friend who has forgotten Tal uMatar in Shmoneh Esrei, is that 
giving psak?

> > E. As R. Aaron told me yesterday, all women should be
> > studying in this program.
> 
> provided it is not femminist driven, as he also said.

If what you're trying to say is that the problem with the yoatzot is 
that it is part of the same agenda as the Women of the Wall and 
other such, I'm not sure that it is, but I do share your fear of that 
agenda. But I have heard enough from enough contemporary 
(Charedi) poskim about how women are NOT asking questions to 
be willing to take that risk.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 24 Oct 99, at 20:23, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M wrote:

> I agree. We need to know of what the curriculum of both programs consists.
> Especially in light of the conflicting statements as to whether the Nishmat
> alumnae will pasken maros, etc.

I have one halachic issue with women paskening maros, which I 
have not looked into yet, but which I thought I would throw out to 
the group for discussion. I think you all know by now that I believe 
that in general the idea of yoatzot is a positive development, but I 
have some trepidation about them paskening maros (which I 
understand they will not be doing) aside from my hopes that they 
not be turned into a tool of the OFagenda. 

My problem is with a pasuk at the beginning of Parshas Shoftim 
and with Rashi there (and I'm kind of surprised that no one has 
raised it until now). The pasuk there (Dvarim 17:8) says, "ki yipoleh 
mimcha davar lamishpat bein dom l'dom ubein din l'din ubein nega 
lonega... v''kamta v'oliso el hamakom asher yivchar Hashem 
Elokecha bo." If I recall correctly, Rashi there associates "bein 
dom l'dom" with different types of dmei nida and dmei ziva (forgive 
me, but I don't even have a Chumash with Rashi in the office). This 
would seem to imply that paskening maros is DIN, and therefore it 
could be that only someone who is qualified to be a DAYAN (which 
we all agree is limited to men) can pasken maros. Okay, I haven't 
looked into this at all yet, so at this point it's my own ramblings, 
but if I don't throw it out to all of you, I don't know when I'll get 
around to looking at it, so I thought I would throw it out anyway....

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 24 Oct 99, at 19:56, Chana/Heather Luntz wrote:

> In message <199910241650.SAA26374@alpha.netvision.net.il>, Carl M.
> Sherer <csherer@netvision.net.il> writes

> I think you are both right and wrong in this.  What happens in chutz
> l'aretz, at least as far as I can see, is that there are Rabbaim
> prepared to posken available, but that the standards you require fall
> away.  That is, I don't know of anybody who had 18 years shimush on the
> subject.  My sense is that the period is much closer to the two of the
> yoetzet programme.  The story that my kalla teacher told me about her
> husband though, was that the learning was artificially accelerated.  He
> used to come home each night with "homework" - bags and bags of bedika
> cloths to posken (he did his shimush in Eretz Yisroel where such was
> possible).  And he would have to go back the next day having poskened
> them all and have them checked.  
> 
> Now to be fair, it seems to me that such a programme could speed the
> matter up.  After all, in a small shtetl, you would not see so many, so
> you may need 18 years to build up expertise.  On the other hand, if the
> Rav you are having shimush with has access to thousands of bedika cloths
> (eg by requiring all the people he has trained in the past to pass on
> old ones for the training of new poskim), and by keeping all that he has
> received in the past, you should be able to telescope the time needed
> for such training.

I was not suggesting that eighteen years (or any other particular 
period of time) is a requirement in order to have shimush as a 
Hilchos Nida posek. What I was trying to get across was that in 
order to be qualified as a Hilchos Nidda posek, one must have 
extensive shimush, which the average small town Rav in 1999 is 
unlikely to have, and which the yoatzot may not yet have.

> That is more like my experience. That is, if there is only a local Rav,
> he will posken to the best of his ability (probably being machmir if he
> is not sure), but he will posken.  And most of them have less
> qualification in the area than the yoetzet have (and would not be
> prepared to put in the time that the yoetzet have on this subject, given
> how small a part of their overall responsibilities it is - especially
> given how few shialas they get).

You're right, but the small town Rav probably has no choice but to 
pasken, if only to maintain his status with his baalebatim, and to 
ensure that women continue to ask shailas at all. So he paskens 
l'chumra, because that's the easy way out. I don't blame him for 
that - I don't think the average small town baalebus realizes how 
truly difficult it is to pasken in this area.

> It may well be that the yoetzet are not going to posken kesomim.  But
> besides having access to people who really do know how to, the reality
> is that they will often have more training than most people who *are*
> poskening these shialas.  And as they continue their work, they will
> build up such expertise.  So that, today, when such a shiala comes in,
> they may have no idea and run straight to the Rav.  After five years of
> passing these shialas on, and then receiving the answer and transmitting
> it to the questioner, they may have a pretty good idea what the answer
> is going to be, and after 18, of course, they will effectively have the
> same shimush as your posek.

That could well be. My impression from my wife is that over the 
years, a woman at least gains some expertise with her own maros 
and learns when she should be machmir and not run to a posek 
(i.e. she gains some sense of how to recognize halachic red). I 
suspect the yoatzot will be much more helpful for newlyweds than 
for women who have been married for 10-20 years. 

> The more difficult question raised by your requirement for an 18 year
> shimush period is, if that is indeed the case, what is a woman (and her
> husband) to do? Always be machmir and not ask anybody?  Ask who is
> available even if you know that they do not have the level of
> qualification that required? 

See above. What I would suggest is that a woman who is being 
told by her local Rav for several months that she is assur to her 
husband ought to look for someone with more expertise to ask. 
The problem is that I think that many women do not know where to 
turn and would be embarassed to "go over the head" of the local 
Rav by asking him whom to ask. This is an area where I think the 
yoatzot could help. Most women do not have the opportunity to 
routinely ask their ksomim shailas to the Gdolei haDor.

- of course, to make this judgement a woman
> would have to know that most Rabbaim are not qualified - and they
> emphatically don't teach you that in kalla class. The opposite, they
> keep stressing "go to a Rav" - with the implication that any Rav will
> do.  

And for a lot of women at a lot of stages of their lives, any Rav will 
do. The problem is that most Kallah classes do not teach you 
when you have to start looking for an expert. Personally, I think a 
woman should try to establish a relationship with an expert from 
Day One, so that she has it if she needs it, but that's not always 
practical outside of large Jewish communities. One of the goals of 
classes like Tehilla Abramov's (which was mentioned earlier on this 
list), as I understand it, is to give the women who teach Kallah 
classes more of a sense of when they have to tell other women to 
start looking for an expert, by giving them a better grounding in the 
underpinnings of the halacha and not just in the halacha itself. In 
that respect, it is very much like the yoatzot, although it is my 
understanding that the yoatzot got a much deeper grounding in 
halacha and poskim (e.g. they learned the texts inside).

I suspect that this is deliberate, if you tell a woman that most
> Rabbaim are not qualified to posken TM shialas, you are going to even
> further decrease the number of shialas being asked.  

I'm sure it's deliberate. You can't very well tell a woman who is 
living in a rural area that the only Rav in town is not qualified to 
pasken Hilchos Nida, and therefore she should send all of her 
shailas to New York! She would never send any! If nothing else, 
think of the delay in getting the shaila paskened, even if you sent 
the cloth by overnight courier.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 25 Oct 99, at 9:16, Akiva Atwood wrote:

> > 
> > I don't think Yoatzot are poskim any more tham most
> > musmachim are.
> 
> But the graduates of the program are saying that they are.

I don't recall hearing them say that. Can you tell me where you saw 
that THEY actually said that (as opposed to Yated inferring it)?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In a message dated 10/25/99 3:26:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
atwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< 
 > That doesn't mean that the
 > Right couldn't have legitimate disagreement with the
 > program.  But the disagreement should be respectful
 > and be spelled out in detail. Instead what we have is
 > a lot of "holier than thous" from the Right.
 
 The disagreement *is* spelled out. See below.
 
 > what the specific objections RW has
 > of the Nishmat program.
 
 To quote from the post:
 
 > > "More importantly, however, unlike Nishmat, neither
 > > of these two kosher
 > > programs has ever made the outrageous claim that
 > > their graduates are, “the
 > > new poseks of Orthodox women.”
 >
 
 You can't get much clearer than that.
 
 Akiva
 
  >>
And where was this claim of "new Poseks" made by Nishmat or the yoatzot?


Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

On 18 Oct 99, at 20:58, Russell J Hendel wrote:

> A famous Gmarrah says RYBZ (Yochanan ben Zacai) when 
> asked to bless his students answered "May your fear of 
> Heaven be like your fear of man". When they protested
> "Is that all you can give us" he answered "Know that
> when a person sins he says 'I hope no one is seeing me'"
> 
> So RYBZ holds that most people do miztvoth for social
> reasons.

I think that gemara means that people refrain from doing aveiros for 
social reasons. Otherwise, why the reference to yira?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 20 Oct 99, at 11:35, David Glasner wrote:

> Second.  It is not quite correct to say "it is tragic that the gedolim did
> not foresee what was to come, but no one did and no one could be
> expected to."  Actually at least one gadol, the Dor Revi'i (whose 75th
> yahrzeit was on Shemini Atzeret) did foresee what was to come.

I have heard numerous references over the years to the Chofetz 
Chaim having warned of a calamity he expected to overtake 
Europe. I think he saw it coming too.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

> > that -- I know Dayanim in Meah Shearim who still, after decades of
> > poskening, still spend several hours a day studying the
> halachot of THM.
>
> I think the original poster meant to ask how many poskim spend
> 2000 hours studying THM BEFORE they start to pasken shailas.
>

That's a valid point -- but it also strengthens the position that says the
Yoatzos are going to poskin at a level deeper than "yes, it's red, you have
to show it to the Rov".

Akiva

> >
> > But the graduates of the program are saying that they are.
>
> I don't recall hearing them say that. Can you tell me where you saw
> that THEY actually said that (as opposed to Yated inferring it)?

From the Jewish Week article of Oct 8th (I could post the article to the
list if desired).

      Two years later, eight graduate scholars are about to begin
poskening, or ruling, on certain questions once reserved for rabbis.

The move, according to Orthodox authorities, is nothing short of
revolutionary. While Reform and Conservative women rabbis have made
halachic rulings for many years, “this is the first time in history
that [Orthodox] women have been authorized [by Orthodox rabbis] to
answer questions in Jewish law,” according to Rabbanit Emunah Henkin,
the director of Nishmat and the driving force behind the initiative.
“This is quite remarkable.”

and

      “There is a feeling of awe, something like finishing medical
school, when you realize how much responsibility you’ve been given.
You have a lot of authority and hope you’ll use it wisely,” she said.


What's important are the *actions* being proposed, not the labels.

Akiva

> I could see that. Especially if the male doctor is someone that they
> never meet in any other context, while the Rabbi is someone they
> see in shul every Shabbos, who learns with their husband several
> times a week or who teaches their son or daughter in school (all of
> which could be the case in a small community).

I'll acknowledge your point. IN all honesty though, the small comminity LOR
probably shouldn't be paskening those shailas anyway (as discussed in the
other post).

> And for a woman who grows up in the Toldos Aharon community
> with that type of expectation that is all probably quite natural. But
> what about the woman who is a ba'alas tshuva who grew up in a
> totally different environment, or the woman who grew up in a
> different town and is suddenly expected to show her bedika cloths
> to a starnge Rav, or the town where a young Rav suddenly moves
> in and becomes the posek for the town. Can't you agree that there
> may be some discomfort?

Certainly -- and I can understand the need for yoetzot who are willing to
act as a go-between. My problem is with the paskening.

>
> That's not education - it's more like getting used to it. It
> will help
> the couple who has been married ten or fifteen or twenty years; it
> won't help the newlyweds.

In some areas, "education" *is* for a large part "getting used to it"

>
> >
> > But the graduates of the program *do*, at least in public
> and to the press.
>

> WHERE did you see that? And what psak do you think they are
> giving? If I open a Shulchan Aruch and it says that if I forget Tal
> uMatar I should say it in Shma Koleinu and I tell that din over to my
> friend who has forgotten Tal uMatar in Shmoneh Esrei, is that
> giving psak?

No -- that's giving over a m'forash halacha. Examining a Kesem and deciding
if the woman is Tahor or not based on "experience" (recognizing the colors)
and a knowledge of the halachic opinions (deciding *in this case* based on
the various opinions) is P'sak.

Obviously not all kesamim require a p'sak (fresh blood, for example) and a
woman learns them from experience.

> If what you're trying to say is that the problem with the yoatzot is
> that it is part of the same agenda as the Women of the Wall and
> other such, I'm not sure that it is, but I do share your fear of that
> agenda.

I don't think that's it's part of the same agenda -- but how much of the
motivation is a desire to help women, and how much is a feministic desire
for "equality"? I don't know, but it does bother me.

> But I have heard enough from enough contemporary
> (Charedi) poskim about how women are NOT asking questions to
> be willing to take that risk.
>

Yoetzes, as advisors, serve a definite need, even in the charedi community.

Akiva

********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]