Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 059

Sunday, October 24 1999

• Gematria and Grammar (Eliezer=318)
• Re: Yoatzot
• Haaretz (was Re: Yated Bilti Neeman & media distortion)
• Mikva Ladies, Yoatzot and Qualified Poskim (was Re: Mikvah Ladies)
• Re: Mazal L'yisrael, Lishma, other he'aros
• Re: Writing a letter to the editor of Yated
• Re: Yoatzot
• RE: Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis
• Re: Supply demand is a Torah View not just capatalistic
• NCSY (was Re: Avodah V4 #52)
• Re: A Solution To chinuch
• Re: Yoatzot
• Re: Yoatzot
• RE: Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis

In V4#56, R. Hendel writes that, "having reached that conclusion from
grammar [that there were two leaders in Avram's offensive against the four
kings,] it is fairly obvious that one leader was Abraham and one was Eliezer.
So the pure simply pshat of the posook is that Eliezer led one contingent
and Abraham the other."

Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems that grammar permits us
to infer, at most, that Avram led one contingent and someone else led
another. Even if it were "fairly obvious" that the someone else was Eliezer,
it is not *grammatically* obvious.

In any case, it is not obvious that Eliezerwas the other leader. It could
just as well have been one of Avram's ba'alay bris, Aner, Eshkol or Mamre,
local potentates with whom Avram entered into treaties. Absent contrary
evidence, it would be far more reasonable to assume that Avram would have
turned to one of these allies to assist him in time of war than to Eliezer, who
had responsibility for all of Avram's household and extensive properties.

In the end it is only the g'matria of N'darim 32a (quoted by Rashi on Lech
Lecha) that enables us to infer that the other leader grammatically inferred
by Russell was Eliezer. Without the g'matria, the identification of the second
leader is mere speculation, and Eliezer is not even the most likely candidate.

Russell goes on to say that "the only problem left is why Rashi used a gematria.
.. . . My conjecture is that since this was before the printing press Rashi had
to make sure the Midrash was memorized so he expressed things as a gematria
in order to make them memorable, but Rashi obviously believed that these items
had grammatical explanation." There's that word "obvious" again. I don't see
anything
obvious or particularly compelling in this conjecture. In addition, it doesn't
begin
to explain why chazal would identify g'matria as one of the 32 midos shehaTora
nidreshes bahen. What seems obvious to me is that Rashi, following Chazal, used
g'matria in this instance because there is no grammatical basis for the
identification.

A final related point. Russell claims R' Yosef Dov Soloveitchik said that "Rashi
never acted like a chasidishe Rebbe. He never derived things from Gematria."
I really can't accept that the Rav ever utterred such dismissive and
disrespectful
words regarding the leaders of the chassidic movement, who he surely
acknowledged
to include some of the leading lomdim, poskim and tzadikim of recent
generations,
despite the penchant for g'matria that they share with Chazal and Rashi.

Kol tuv,
David








At this point I will cite the Rav whom I heard on Gen 32:5
>I lived with laban (GARTI)
Rashi says
>GARTI = TARYG (Same letters). This shows that
>Jacob observed all the commandments.

The Rav said    >
The Rav said that the true explanation is that  >YSHAV = For a citizen To dwell
>GAYR = For a non citizen to dwell
Since Jacob was established, married two local women,
had 20 children and worked for Laban (a leader) then the
verse should have said
>I lived with Laban (YASHAV)
It says
>I lived with Laban (GR)
because Jacob FELT like a GR--he felt uncomfortable
because of his ideological differences.

It should be clear that the above GR vs YASHAV is
the true explanation. The Rav did not explain WHY
Rashi chose to express this as a gematria. 

On 22 Oct 99, at 15:11, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> Since this  *not*  seem to be ending,  let me ask one simple question:

> > 1. There seems to be a need for this type of program
> > (a sort of Eis Laasos).
> 	Where,  how and by whom was this need articulated prior to
> implementation of Rabbanit Henkin's program?  Is there significant
> evidence that the problem was recognized prior to her solution,  or was
> it the reverse,  as some on the list have maintained,  i.e. that THM was
> a good place to focus the energies of women lookng for the opportunity
> for advanced study. 

I don't think anyone took any surveys, but every review course I 
have gone to on THM (in EY they are all over the place during 
shovovim) spends an entire class stressing that you have to 
choose a posek and then take all your shailas to that posek. If 
there weren't a problem with people NOT taking shailas to poskim, 
I don't think one sixth to one eighth of the shiurim would be spent 
on that point.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 22 Oct 99, at 12:48, Feldman, Mark wrote:

However, even Israeli newspapers like Haaretz make some effort at
> objectivity (in their news pieces).

No, they don't. Particularly Haaretz, where every page reads like 
the op-ed page. Especially where fruhm people or the (political) 
right wing are involved.

-- Carl (who finally canceled Haaretz and switched to the Post after 
more than a year of agonizing about causing the Kollel man who 
delivered Haaretz to lose parnassah)


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Thanks to Chana for putting some of the things that were going 
through my head last week as I lurked from the US onto the list. A 
few further comments....

On 23 Oct 99, at 21:22, Chana/Heather Luntz wrote:

> In message , Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> writes

> >You are picturing a particular process that is not what is used. It's not
> >that a woman brings her sh'eilos with her to the mikvah. As you said, for
> >the overwhelming majority of questions, that's far too late. Rather, they call
> >the mikvah with questions.
> 
> What are the hours of this mikvah of yours? As I mentioned, all the
> mikvos I am aware of are staffed only from a bit before shkia till a few
> hours after.  And the women seem pretty busy during that time.  In order
> for this to work, I think you would need to extend the mikvah hours, and
> have somebody who manns the telephone almost exclusively  (Because it is
> a bit difficult to talk to a woman about her TM shialas if you are
> simultaneously checking whether a tevilla is kosher, or watching to let
> women in the door, take their money or check who has left the various
> rooms so you can make sure the next person in the queue knows to go in).
> 
> So you would also need a larger staff than at the mikvahs I am familiar
> with (two women).  How many women are "on duty" at your wife's mikvah?

I would add to this that I think Micha is assuming the model of a 
"small town" mikva if you will. A mikva with one or two mikva ladies 
who work every night of the year except Tisha b'Av and Yom 
Kippur. For example, we spent years 3-10 of our marriage in 
Passaic, New Jersey (ironically, where Micha lives now). When the 
mikva in Passaic first opened (1985 or so), it expected to service 
two women a night, and the mikva lady was an old friend of Adina's 
from Chicago, so that if we had needed to use her as a go-between 
with a posek I think Adina might have felt comfortable doing so. 
Compare that to the mikva in our current neighborhood in 
Yerushalayim where there are more than 2000 married women, bli 
ayin hara, most of whom are at a stage in their lives where they are 
either pregnant, nursing, or going to the mikva every month. While I 
don't have statistics, I suspect that there are closer to 20-30 ladies 
a night going, and I'm not sure Adina even knows the name of the 
mikva lady, because (obviously) there are several. That's not 
exactly an environment that is likely to make a woman comfortable 
with asking a mikva lady to help with her most intimate shailas.

> > Similarly, your comments about operating under a
> >policy of anonymity. This is different than saying which night one is going
> >to the mikvah.
> >
> 
> Yes, it is different.  But if you have to leave a bedika cloth at the
> mikva, and wait till they get back to you with an answer it is going to
> be the complete opposite of anonomous - it will presumably take a couple
> of days, as you can only go with the cloth late in the evening, the
> mikvah lady can then presumably not leave the mikvah to drop off the
> cloth to the Rav until after the mikvah has closed, and presumably the
> Rav will not posken the shiala at that time of night (after midnight in
> summer), and won't get it back to the mikvah until the next day, and
> assuming that the mikvah lady in question is not on duty every night,
> she will need to leave a note for the lady on duty the next night so as
> to be able to tell the right woman the answer to her particular shiala
> and not mix her up with the other shiala that was asked that night. That
> means that your name and details go through who knows how many hands,
> and are written down in the mikvah records, including the answer to your
> shiala.  Which means there is a permanent record of exactly what is your
> particular status (tamey or tahor).  I assume that your mikvah
> subsequently destroys those records (can you check with your wife?), or
> would if they do in fact take bedika cloths - can we have some more
> specifics on how the system works?

Actually, when we started with our posek in America, we were told 
to put a number on the envelope and then to call and ask about 
that number. With all the anonymity of that system, it was obvious 
to us five minutes into the conversation that the posek knew to 
whom he was talking (which he later confirmed to us).

> Of course, all this could indeed be solved if the mikvah was open during
> the day to take these kind of shialas, and somebody was on duty all day
> to receive them and a Rav was on hand to be consulted and then the
> answer could be retransmitted during the course of the same day.  Does
> your mikvah do this?

There actually are places to do this in Yerushalayim, but AFAIK 
none of them are mikvaos. 

 Is it
> the kind of thing that after four evenings of training, a person would
> be able to answer most shialas on the spot, and will only need to refer
> a few on, or is it the kind of thing that in order to know the answer to
> your average shiala you need two years of training - including extensive
> exposure to bedika cloths to learn tamei from tahor colours?

One minor point - it is my understanding that these women are 
NOT meant to pasken ksomim. I would question whether two years 
is adequate to learn to pasken ksomim unless they spent night 
after night (or actually day after day) looking at cloths. I have not 
understood until now that they did that.

One other point. The entire discussion between Micha and Chana 
assumes the easy availability of a posek. This is often NOT the 
case. Many Rabbonim do not and will not pasken ksomim. In 
Yerushalayim, we found it was word of mouth to whom you could 
take your cloths and when you could take them, and we feel 
fortunate to have found a posek with whom we can consult 
regularly and with whom we feel comfortable.

In chutz la'aretz the situation is, in our experience, worse. Just to 
expose the tip of the iceberg, I'd like to tell how we found our posek 
in the States.

One of Adina's friends is the daughter of a well known Hilchos Nida 
posek in the States. We were invited to the parents' house for 
Shabbos shortly after our wedding, and after agonizing the entire 
Shabbos, we decided to ask him to reconcile some of the things 
we had been taught in our respective chosson and kallah classes. 
He took us down to his study, sat behind his desk and answered 
all our questions. Then he pulled a stack of envelopes from his 
drawer - probably about 20-30 of them. He told us that it was a 
week's worth of shailas and that many of them were from out of 
town (for all of you from outside the New York area - "out of town" 
generally means anything outside a 50-mile radius of New York 
City). He said that one shaila came from a woman in the 
hinterlands who hadn't been with her husband for several months 
because the local Rav kept being machmir before finally referring 
them to our posek. One look at the cloth and he knew that the 
problem had nothing to do with dam nida. He told us that he had 
eighteen years of shimush with another well known posek before 
he ever paskened a shaila himself. Over the next ten years, the 
only time we took a shaila to anyone else was when he was out of 
town and his son was covering for him. The son also had many 
years of shimush by the same posek as the father before he ever 
answered a shaila. 

My point is that there are very few QUALIFIED hilchos nida poskim 
out there, and that for someone to have a relationship with a 
qualified hilchos nida posek such that they feel comfortable asking 
shailas freely is not as simple as the discussions over the last two 
weeks has made it out to be. If the yoatzot do manage to establish 
those types of relationships with qualified poskim, so that they can 
act as a go-between for women who don't feel comfortable asking 
for themselves, then IMHO the program is worthwhile, and I am 
willing to run the risk that someone else may be planning to exploit 
it as part of an agenda with which I generally do not agree.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In a message dated 10/23/99 8:34:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
C1A1Brown@aol.com writes:

> 3. The gemara in Makkos learns 'hashev aishes haish ki navi hu' is a double 
>  statement: 1. return Sarah 2. Avraham is a navi and learned to say Sarah 
from 
>  his sister from your behavior - when a guest comes to the city should he 
be 
>  asked about his wife or his lodging?  I don't understand what this has to 
do 
>  with being a Navi.
>  
Due to lack of better answer (after some research in the Mforshim on Makkos 
9b Bava Kama 92a Pirkei DR"E 26) the Teitch of Novee means here seeing the 
hidden here it is thru Chachma (one of the needed qualities for Nvuah), the 
Ravad actually writes Novee Hu Chacham Hu.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

--- Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If you interested in writing a letter to the editor
> of Yated, you can
> write him at nyp88@aol.com
 Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
 
If it's anti the Yated viewpoint, it won't get
published.

HM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

--- Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com> wrote:
> Since this  *not*  seem to be ending,  let me ask
> one simple question:
> 
> From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis
..
> > 
> > 1. There seems to be a need for this type of
> program
> > (a sort of Eis Laasos).
> 	Where,  how and by whom was this need articulated
> prior to
> implementation of Rabbanit Henkin's program?  Is
> there significant
> evidence that the problem was recognized prior to
> her solution,  or was
> it the reverse,  as some on the list have
> maintained,  i.e. that THM was
> a good place to focus the energies of women lookng
> for the opportunity
> for advanced study. 
> 
> 	I am not taking a position on whether that focus is
> right or wrong,  but
> it appears IMHO to have been a solution to a problem
> which had not (yet?)
> been identified.
> 


This is a good point.  My own infomation was only
anecdotal, gleaned from some of the correspondences on
the list.  Their arguments seemed legitimate.

However, the question of which came first doesn't mean
that there isn't a need.  Perhaps this was one of
those festering underlying issues that everyone knows
about but nobody talks about.  At any rate this
program seems to be a good idea regardless of what
generated it as long as it is not femminist driven.

HM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

--- Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> > 7. I still believe the The Gedolei HaTorah would
> not
> > oppose such a program in principle.
> 
> According to the author of the Yated article (a
> neighbor and personal
> friend), there are at least *two* such programs
> underway, under the guidance
> of Gedolei HaTorah here in Jerusalem.

Get you get some details about these programs?

HM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

--- Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@juno.com> wrote:
I am opposed to anyone getting paid for
> Chinuch...
> we have enough good teachers who would do it for
> nothing
> and that would solve most of the chinuch problems)
> 
> Russell

You've got to be kidding. Where do you get you're
information?

Please tell me where I can get a hold of such teachers
I would love to interview them for jobs in chinuch
here in Chicago.  Tuitions could then be substantialy
reduced and everyone would be happy... except for
those teachers who now are living on incomes provided
for their teaching.

Caveat: In life you usually get what you pay for and
there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

HM



=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

On 21 Oct 99, at 13:19, mluchins@Zweig-Dimenna.com wrote:

> NCSY has:
> A) Prevented 345 Intermarriages
> B) Faciliated "negio" in 176 cases (amongst those who would otherwise never
> engaged in that behavior)
> C) Increased observance amongst 1,439 members
> D) Decreased obeservance (or caused bittul) amongs 721 members.
> E) Taught 322,141 divrei Torah
> F) Caused 98,422 occasions of "Kol Isho"....."
> 
>      I know this is hypothetical but it is also way off.  

Actually there WAS a survey done of NCSY alumni a few years 
back; I know because I filled it out, and I think the results were 
even published. They were far more favorable than the hypothetical 
results given above, although I do not recall the exact numbers. I'm 
sure your father would know how to find them, and I think you 
might be doing a service for this list if you post them.

As someone who spent his high school and undergraduate college 
years (and another year or two on either side) deeply involved with 
NCSY (1969-79), I agree with much of what has been said about it 
on this list. While it may not have a place for many of the students 
in the "black" Yeshivas and Beis Yaakovs, I think it does wonders 
with the public school kids and has done much to keep many day 
school kids from falling off the Derech.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

--- Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@juno.com> wrote:
 
> My ideas are really quite simple: There are many
> Hebrew
> education topics (reading the siddur, reading
> hebrew,
> simply chumash and rashi, holiday halachoth) which
> could be taught by a large number of people. If you
> allowed
> these people to teach (it would only require a few
> hours
> per day per week person ) alot of the salary needs
> for chinuch
> teachers would disappear without a loss of quality
> 
> To substantiate this idea I would have to know if
> anyone
> has studied how much talent is out there who would
> volunteer
> if the system allowed it. I don;'t think this is a
> far fetched idea
> (though it may sound unfeasable)

You're ideas seem quite unfeasable to me.  Perhaps in
a bygone era predating organized mass education, your
idea was good because it was the accepted practice. 
Parents fulfilled their role as primary educators for
their chidren and this was a tradition handed down
from generation to generation.  Not so today. Most
parents woudn't know how to begin.  Neither would any
volunteers. Today's highly organized system requires
teachers knowlegeable in ealy chinuch techniques. To
the extent that a new teacher is hiered w/o  much
experience, they are guided along by a thoroughly
prepared curriculem that has been designed and tested
by professional educators. Things are not the same as
they were in the "Alte Guteh Tzeiten"! A child not
educated in the system in his/her early years risks a
distinct disavantage in his early education and w/o a
good early foundation the chances of failure in the
later grades increases dramaticly. In such scenarios
as you propose only the brightest and the best would
succeed.  Everyone else would fall through the cracks.

HM


=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

How does the institution of yoatzot address the fact that men,  per your
analysis,  are not asking shailos?  Or were men supposed to go home and
tell their wives to ask shailos-I don't get it?

Gershon

On Sun, 24 Oct 1999 18:47:23 +0200 "Carl M. Sherer"
<csherer@netvision.net.il> writes:
> On 22 Oct 99, at 15:11, Gershon Dubin wrote:
> 
> > Since this  *not*  seem to be ending,  let me ask one simple 
> question:
> 
> > > 1. There seems to be a need for this type of program
> > > (a sort of Eis Laasos).
> > 	Where,  how and by whom was this need articulated prior to
> > implementation of Rabbanit Henkin's program?  Is there significant
> > evidence that the problem was recognized prior to her solution,  
> or was
> > it the reverse,  as some on the list have maintained,  i.e. that 
> THM was
> > a good place to focus the energies of women lookng for the 
> opportunity
> > for advanced study. 
> 
> I don't think anyone took any surveys, but every review course I 
> have gone to on THM (in EY they are all over the place during 
> shovovim) spends an entire class stressing that you have to 
> choose a posek and then take all your shailas to that posek. If 
> there weren't a problem with people NOT taking shailas to poskim, 
> I don't think one sixth to one eighth of the shiurim would be spent 
> on that point.
> 
> -- Carl
> 

On 24 Oct 99, at 14:40, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> How does the institution of yoatzot address the fact that men,  per your
> analysis,  are not asking shailos?  Or were men supposed to go home and
> tell their wives to ask shailos-I don't get it?

Men were supposed to go home and encourage their wives to ask 
shaila's, although I understand that the same theme is stressed in 
women's courses as well. Of course this presupposes to some 
extent that men actually know when their wives should be asking 
shailas in the first place, which is a questionable assumption IMHO.

-- Carl

> On Sun, 24 Oct 1999 18:47:23 +0200 "Carl M. Sherer"
> <csherer@netvision.net.il> writes:
> > On 22 Oct 99, at 15:11, Gershon Dubin wrote:
> > 
> > > Since this  *not*  seem to be ending,  let me ask one simple 
> > question:
> > 
> > > > 1. There seems to be a need for this type of program
> > > > (a sort of Eis Laasos).
> > > 	Where,  how and by whom was this need articulated prior to
> > > implementation of Rabbanit Henkin's program?  Is there significant
> > > evidence that the problem was recognized prior to her solution,  
> > or was
> > > it the reverse,  as some on the list have maintained,  i.e. that 
> > THM was
> > > a good place to focus the energies of women lookng for the 
> > opportunity
> > > for advanced study. 
> > 
> > I don't think anyone took any surveys, but every review course I 
> > have gone to on THM (in EY they are all over the place during 
> > shovovim) spends an entire class stressing that you have to 
> > choose a posek and then take all your shailas to that posek. If 
> > there weren't a problem with people NOT taking shailas to poskim, 
> > I don't think one sixth to one eighth of the shiurim would be spent 
> > on that point.
> > 
> > -- Carl
> > 
> 


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

>
> Are any more details available? Sounds intriguing.
>

I spoke with the author of the Yated article (and forwarded the list
messages about the article to him).

He sent me the following (Part of his article that had been edited
out):

Dear Akiva,

Here's how my original read:

"It all began two years ago, when Emunah Henkin, director of the
Jerusalem-based Nishmat Center for Women’s Studies, initiated a
program to
train Orthodox women as halachic consultants. Despite the breathless
praises
sung by the uninformed media, Henkin’s idea was neither new nor
original.
There are at least two similar programs for training female halachic
consultants in Yerushalayim alone, although unlike the Nishmat course,
both
are endorsed and closely supervised by genuine, recognized talmidei
chachamim. One of the courses even carries the endorsement of Rav
Yosef
Shalom Eliyashiv, but it is run in modest silence, far away from the
public
limelight. (In fact, the people involved declined to be interviewed
for this
article.)

"More importantly, however, unlike Nishmat, neither of these two
kosher
programs has ever made the outrageous claim that their graduates are,
“the
new poseks of Orthodox women.” And consequently, unlike the Nishmat
graduates, members of these two programs are well received in *all*
Orthodox
circles, not just among those who align themselves with the
ultra-modern
views of Norman Lamm."


=============

One course he mentioned to me is run by Tehilla Abramov, the author of
"Secret of Jewish Femininity".
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i

iQA/AwUBOBM6/FfniH1rWNqDEQLncwCgpqcOPp00b5aQKVKPYUAUtb2aEG4An3Tp
VDyxobf6lFMj/agpcaGdTIYl
=+KBW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]