Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 054

Friday, October 22 1999

• Chabad
• educational priorities
• Re: Salaries
• Re: Elizabeth Dole and the Gender Gap
• Re: NCSY
• Re: "Professionalism" of women gynecologists
• teacher's sa;laries
• Lot/Haran - an interesting Sefas Emes
• Zemirot with Shem
• women gynecologists
• re: Ken yehi ratzon
• Zemiros
• reasoning of Yated Neeman
• women gynecologists - humor alert
• Re: Salaries / Schar Batoloh
• Ken yehi ratzon
• Yated Bilti Neeman
• Re: Yated Bilti Neeman
• Yoatzos Neeman or Female Rabbis
• Yated Bilti Neeman
• Re: Zemiros
• Re: Yated Bilti Neeman

The Meshichisten (in the limited sense of those who think all the work has 
been done) have always been a minority within Chabad -- what caused the 
excesses of the last decade or so was, in my opinion, a loss of internal 
control over the movement brought about by the physical impairment of the 
Lubavitcher Rebbe and the passing away of Rabbis J.J. Hecht and Hodakov.  In 
most places (especially outside of New York), even to talk about the Rebbe 
as Moshiach is at most, in the background and looked at with suspicion if 
one hasn't learned a regular seder for a few years.

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I read Avodah in digest form (as recommended when I signed up), hence I
may be a bit behind in the discussion.

Let me clarify.  I was in NO WAY disagreeing with the proposition that
salaries should be better in Jewish education!  I've been saying for
years, to whoever will listen (but how powerful are those folks, anyway,
to effect change), that the teachers (and kal v'chomer the principals) are
entitled to make what the average baal habayis in the community makes.  
If we can't do that, at LEAST give them free tuition for their children.  
(As Rabbi Riskin used to say, "If there aren't lots of little Jews, there
won't be lots of big Jews", to which I would reply, the most significant
birth control device in the Jewish community is the school tuition (in
Manhattan, make that the rents as well).)  I've also been saying for
years, if everyone would just tithe, never mind over and above that, we
could dispense with the dinners and get on with the business of supporting
the schools.  There is NO EXCUSE for the principal of a Jewish school to
make less than even an administrative assistant or computer operator in
the general society.

The spectacle of some of these brilliant and dedicated guys scrabbling for
teaching jobs is heartbreaking.  What incredible resources, going to
waste.

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu
(not quite part of the solution here, but hopefully not part of the
problem)

Excellent point! They should be paid more than men!

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <Yzkd@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: Salaries


> In a message dated 10/21/99 3:03:46 PM EST, gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:
>
> >   Apparently schar batala is not being properly evaluated.  Those whose
> >  schar batala is higher than the going rate in chinuch are, often,
going
> >  into the other fields.
> >
> And by women I don't know if Schar Batoloh need be considered in the first
place.
>
> Kol Tuv
>
> Yitzchok Zirkind
>

Why in heavens name would you want to vote for Liddy
Dole? 

As for your point about the defacto inequity in pay
scales between men and women.  I couldn't agree more
that it is unfair, especially since two of my
daughters are in the chinuch system in Chicago, 
However, changing hats from unbiased observer to board
member I can't say that there is much we can do about
it short of destroying the whole system.  Tuitions are
already too high and unaffrodable. Without the great
number of scholorships given, very few people could
afford to send their children.. You would be surprised
at who gets and even deserves scholorships.  I happen
to be privy to this information as I am on the
Scholarship and Tuition committee at ACHDS, one of the
largest dayschools in Chicago.  (over 700 students.)
Tuition is based on cost per child. The greater part
of this "cost" is teachers salaries which have
steadily increased over the years. Yet what are we
Balle Battim supposed to do?  We want quality teachers
in our schools and quality cost money. Most boards are
maxed out in their fundraising abilities.  ACHDS is
one of the best fundraising institutions in the city
and even we opperate in a deficit situation.  It is a
fact that a family with four children has a yearly
tuition bill of over $25,000. How many can parents
afford that?

So we have a connundrum.  We need to spend more money
then we can ever possibly receive inorder to provide
quality education.  Expenses go up every year (with
automatic raises built into the teachers contracts
every year, which they deserve).  Other costs go up
too. But Tuition income rarely increases and
fundraising varies from year to year. Most predictions
for the future are that fundraising will go down.

Most board members are very mindful of those facts and
lest you say that we board members are unsympathetic
to teachers needs, I am here to inform you that it was
during our (the baby boomers) tenure at ACHDS that
teachers salaries went from below poverty level to
pretty respectable, and that fund raising went from
being a joke to being quite substantial.

So, we are forced to stay with the status quo. The
inequality of salaries is a fact of life that,
eventhough grossly unfair, should not be tampered with
because the delicate balance of income vs. expenses
hangs in the balance and with it, Jewish education as
we know it.

HM

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--- TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:


> 
> I would agree with you 100% regarding students at
> Yeshivos. But students at 
> co-ed Y.H.S., such as Frisch, Flatbush, Ramaz, Ida
> Crown, et al, do very well 
> in NCSY. And not to sound like a pessimist, but
> Hal'vai there is socializing  
> going on. I would much rather have my children meet
> in a supervised, 
> wholesome, Torah saturated environment like NCSY
> than at a pizza shop in 
> Woodbourne. (NY'ers will understand exactly what I
> mean). If my son is in 
> Torah Vodaath, I agree that it is less of an issue.
> But my post wasn't really 
> directed at those kids. Look, not to sound like an
> expert, but you have to 
> spend a few years doing it 30 Shabbatot a year, as I
> did, with both Yeshiva 
> and P.S. kids, to see how these things really play
> out. BTW, who is your son 
> in law the National President? 


My son in law is Micah Greenland he was president
somewhere in the early 90ties.

I agree with you about NCSY and Co-ed schools like the
ones you mention. 

HM

=====

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In a message dated 10/21/99 5:20:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bergez01@med.nyu.edu writes:

> I don't understand what you (RYZ) mean here.  Is it that (a) women 
> gynecologists aren't as professional, or (b) women gynecologists lead (
> somehow?) to less professionalism on the wards and in practice? Or maybe 
that 
> women gynecologists get paid less (that I could possibly believe)?  
>  
>  Any evidence that women gynecologists are less "professional" would 
> certainly be a surprise to those of us in health care!
>  
Sorry for the misunderstanding, what I meant is that i.e. high risk pregnancy 
one should go to the bigger expert with most knowledge and experience in this 
field regardless of the gender.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

i don't know what they do back east, but in the west, at least in the
chareidi schools, the rebbbeim get   a great benefit-------usually free
tuition for their kids. as they have b'h  large families, this can be a very
large financial benefit   [ or burden on the the non-rebbe parents,
depending on how you look att it }

there is associated with this a second discrimination------ if the only
teacher in the family is female, it's usualy only a partial tuition
reduction.............

The Sefas Emes brings down that Lot was zocheh to travel with Avraham and to 
count Rus-David-MAshiach among his descendents (pretty heavy stuff!) because 
his father Haran jumped into the kivshan ha'eish.  

I have never heard anything like this - does anyone know of any sources upon 
which it might be based? (As I have written before, I am not at all 
knowlegeable in Sifrei Chassidus).  

-Good Shabbos

-Chaim

Several comments:
reb Sammy wrote, "Very nice for those who are careful to be mechaven, but I
think we need another terutz for those who are not. Are they being yotze
their hiyuv
inadvertently according to the opinion that you can be with only one beracha?"
Lechaora, that would depend on mitvos tzrichos kavanah or not i.e. can you
be yotzay birchas hamazon if you don't have kavanah to be yotzay?
apparantly, the GR'A (as RYGB pointed out the tzur mishelo problem is
mentioned by the GR'A) felt that you may be yotzay even without specific
kavanah to be mekayem the mitzvah of birchas hamazon. Since we pasken (see
SA AC 60 se'if 4) that tzrichos kavanah, one would think that even then one
is not yotzay.  However, if someone could explain the GR'A's reasoning
please do so because I'm not sure where to look itup.  Maybe he is being
choshesh for the man de'amar mitzvos eyn tzrichos kavanah, especially where
there is a shaalah of bracha levatala? I need help here.
Reb Rich Wolpoe asked, "Is this true that one can be yotzei benching even
without saying the formulaic  Boruch Ato .... and w/o Melech Olom?"
see Rambam hilchos brachos perek 1 halachah 6 "Ve'im shinah es hamatbeah
ho'il vehizkir azkarah u'malchus ve'inyan habracha afilu beleshon chol Yatzah"
Although this is controversial, (see the Nosei keilim there) There is still
a definite possibility that one can be yotzay without saying the official
formula.
Shaul Weinreb

Reb Sholem Berger writes, "Or maybe that women gynecologists get paid less
(that I could possibly believe)?"

I wholeheartedly agree with your post, women gynecologists are no less
professional than their male counterparts, but don't believe anyone who
tells you that they earn less.  As a fourth year medical student who plans
a career in Obstetrics/Gynecology - I have recently done extensive research
on this subject.  Women gynecologists on average earn up to 20% more than
their male counterparts, this obviously changes based on geography, and
other social factors.  This is one of the few fields in which this is the
case.
Shaul Weinreb

Gershon dubin asked <<< Any sources on the custom of answering "ken yehi
ratzon" when the sh"tz says birchas kohanim (as opposed to amen when the
kohanim say it)? >>>

Look carefully at the text. The Shatz asks Hashem to give us a bracha.
The Shatz does not actually give us a bracha such as the kohanim would.
So we say, "Yes, may it be His will to give us the bracha as you asked
him to do." But there was no bracha which our "Amen" would apply to.

Actually, I suppose "Amen" is just as appropriate for requests as it is
for blessings. We say "Amen" to the Harachamans at a bris, right? But
that's the best answer I can come up with. Any other takers?

Akiva Miller

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It seems to me that even if one sang Tzur Mishelo at the Shabbos table
with Hashem's correct Name, and even in the unlikely event that one did
so with full kavana to be yotzay Birkas Hamzon doing so, he would still
have to actually recite the regular Birkas Hamazon afterwards. The reason
is that Tzur Mishelo does not include any reference to Shabbos.

This logic would also apply on Yom Tov, but not at Shalosh Seudos or
during the week. I also grant that Tzur Mishelo might satisfy the
obligation d'oraisa, and I can hear some argue that it's better to avoid
doing so, so that the Birkas Hamazon can satisfy both the d'oraisa and
d'rabanan obligations, as designed by Chazal.

Akiva Miller

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Any additional halachic expression by women would have to emulate men.
This is true for additional observance of optional mitzvot, talmud torah
and tefilla.  One hundred years ago essentially all religious schools
were for boys and there were no women teaching in those schools.
Sweeping rejection of all such expression by declaring it automatically
feminist is not a reasoned argument.
Sincerely yours,
Yosef Blau

A true anecdote:

When my son Zvi Hirsch was born, he was delivered by a woman gynecologist who 
herselfl was 7 months pregnant.  Along with my wife, she labored intensely to 
deliver a BH healthy son and only when she comleted her task she then  
"collapsed" and requested that we  get her a chair. For a moment I though we'd 
have to turn around and deliver HER baby next!

Rich Wolpoe

Just off the top of my head - 
Perhaps yashrus says that the schar batoloh for those who teach
our children should be "cheshboned"  according to what it would
cost *us* to stay home and do the job?

G'S
Sender Baruch

I have a fuzzy/vague recollection that we davka do NOT say omain when the Shatz 
is "pinch-hitting" for actual kohanim.  IOW the omein might confuse one to 
regard the shatz as a cohain, etc.

Note that Chabad's Nusach Ari they DO answer Omain, and isn't that the case for 
Eidot haMizrach, too?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________




Look carefully at the text. The Shatz asks Hashem to give us a bracha. 
The Shatz does not actually give us a bracha such as the kohanim would. 
So we say, "Yes, may it be His will to give us the bracha as you asked 
him to do." But there was no bracha which our "Amen" would apply to.

Actually, I suppose "Amen" is just as appropriate for requests as it is 
for blessings. We say "Amen" to the Harachamans at a bris, right? But 
that's the best answer I can come up with. Any other takers?

Akiva Miller

After reading the scurrilous article that appeared in the recent edition of 
Yated Neeman, a newspaper of distinction, namely, it is distinguished by its 
deliberate inaccuracies, misquotations, half-truths and, above all, its sense 
of infallible
self-righteousness.  Knowing first-hand that the indviduals involved were, at 
times,  misquoted, and were certainly misrepresented and maligned, I ask the 
following questions:

Is this the way to conduct a machlokes l'shem Shamayim?  Does publshing a 
newspaper give one a heter to engage in rechilus and to be motzi laaz?  Do 
the halachic standards of this list allow for us to repeat that rechilus and 
to give it further airing?


Mark Dratch

While it is not my intention to defend the "Yated Bilti Ne'eman", I do not
think it is necessarily fair to criticize themember of the list that posted
the essay. I do not believe that, technically, the re-publication of a
newspaper essay meets the criteria for LH in this case, and I believe that
the individual who posted it here did so not to anger, annoy, or distort,
but to further discussion (well, he did, but not, probably, in the way he
expected :-) ).

Now, fellow members of the Avodah list, let me make a point I have been
itching to make for years, but have not found proper occasion to make until
now. There is anunderlying assumption that many have here that the RW media
distort, while the LW media is accurate. Several people wrote me offlist
rather virulent things about certain RW publications (that they named by
name).

My query, as one who reads the NYT religiously, and knows the high standards
of journalistic objectivity set by that flagship newspaper, is, do you
really know of a Jewish media mouthpiece that is not biased to a certain
viewpoint? I have yet to come across such a paper or magazine. I have yet to
see in, a LW publication an essay saying "Maybe we are wrong about
so-and-so", as much as I have yet to see such in a RW publication.

While it is hard to guage accuracy in reporting, because I know of no other
paper that can be identified with the LW than, say, the Jewish Press, which
is, to the best of my understanding, not much more accurate than the Yated,
I do not think there would be as significant a difference in that realm
either.

B'didi hava uvda. I may have noted this before, please forgive the
redundancy. If you go to the aishdas website, you will find, in the
baistefila section, several essays that I have written. Most have been
published. Some have not. Of those that have not, one was commissioned by a
prominent LW media mouthpiece. It is a review of R' Herschel Schachter's
"Nefesh Ha'Rav" and some related works. In it, I cite RHS's paragraphs
relating that RYBS held that women must, al pi din, cover their hair and
that he would have preferred that Maimonides be separate. I cited these
among examples of points in the book that were likely to stir controversy.

The first thing the Editors of the publication made me do was verify that I
had 110% accurately translated the passages in question. When that rigorous
process was complete, they still decided that they could not publish the
essay with those two passages, lest certain constituencies be offended. They
demanded that I delete those passages. I refused, and they (who had
commissioned this piece) rejected it. I have not been asked to write for
this publication since.

That experience (and some subsequent ones) was revelatory and educational
for me. Like many, I had thought that censorship and bias were a tool of the
RW, abhorred by the LW. Now, I knew that this was untrue.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <MSDratch@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 8:36 AM
Subject: Yated Bilti Neeman


> After reading the scurrilous article that appeared in the recent edition
of
> Yated Neeman, a newspaper of distinction, namely, it is distinguished by
its
> deliberate inaccuracies, misquotations, half-truths and, above all, its
sense
> of infallible
> self-righteousness.  Knowing first-hand that the indviduals involved were,
at
> times,  misquoted, and were certainly misrepresented and maligned, I ask
the
> following questions:
>
> Is this the way to conduct a machlokes l'shem Shamayim?  Does publshing a
> newspaper give one a heter to engage in rechilus and to be motzi laaz?  Do
> the halachic standards of this list allow for us to repeat that rechilus
and
> to give it further airing?
>
>
> Mark Dratch
>
>

I stand by my original post on Yoatzot.

Here are the main points.

1. There seems to be a need for this type of program
(a sort of Eis Laasos).

2. It's Agenda cannot be femminist driven.

3. Aplicants must be of high moral character and
screened vis-a-vis a femminist agenda.

4. The "degree" is not a substitute for Semicha.

5. Women graduates must realize that they are not
Poskim but advisors.

6. There has to be reliable Poskim affiliated with the
program whom these women can turn to.

7. I still believe the The Gedolei HaTorah would not
oppose such a program in principle.

The objections raised by the Charedi Rosh HaYeshiva
quated in the Yated seemed to be more to his
perception (incorrectly, I hope!) that the whole thing
is femminist driven and that these degrees will be
some sort of equivalent smicha.  His point (correctly
so) is that many years of learning Shas and Poskim is
required inorder to Paskin. 

BTW, my reading of his response didn't seem to object
to the notion that years of study by woman similiar to
those years spent by men in Yeshivos could
theortically produce some sort of equivalency to
Smicha. (Except for the problem of abandoning the
necessary roles women have traditionally had as
mothers, etc.)

Was my reading incorrect?  If so, show me where my
inference is incorrect.

HM 

..




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Echoing RYGB's sentiments, it has been my experience that the press in general 
distorts things.  I have had personal experience myself (on issues re: politics 
not religion).


The best defense against this is
1) to read any article with a jaundiced eye;
2) to realize that even accurate quotes are often quoted out of context in such 
a way as to distort their message;
 and to be truly open-minded,
3) to read journals representing a broad spectrum of views.  Sometimes letters 
to the editor help to balance one-sided reporting.

To paraphrase Avos 1:8, when reading any journal, consider them as all "evil" at
first glance.

Rich Wolpoe  

Akiva Miller wrote:

> 
> It seems to me that even if one sang Tzur Mishelo at the Shabbos table
> with Hashem's correct Name, and even in the unlikely event that one did
> so with full kavana to be yotzay Birkas Hamzon doing so, he would still
> have to actually recite the regular Birkas Hamazon afterwards. The reason
> is that Tzur Mishelo does not include any reference to Shabbos.
> 



There! That's what R' Heinneman said. Shabbat and Brit.

Thank you for reminding me.



> This logic would also apply on Yom Tov, but not at Shalosh Seudos or
> during the week. I also grant that Tzur Mishelo might satisfy the
> obligation d'oraisa, and I can hear some argue that it's better to avoid
> doing so, so that the Birkas Hamazon can satisfy both the d'oraisa and
> d'rabanan obligations, as designed by Chazal.


Funny thing is, though, some Sefaradim say Tzur Mishelo the way Ashkenazim
say Shir Hama'alot. Every day, every time. It's in my siddur, right there
before Birkat Hamazon.


---sam

--- MSDratch@aol.com wrote:
> After reading the scurrilous article that appeared in the recent
> edition of 
> Yated Neeman, a newspaper of distinction, namely, it is
> distinguished by its 
> deliberate inaccuracies, misquotations, half-truths and, above all,
> its sense 
> of infallible
> self-righteousness.  Knowing first-hand that the indviduals
> involved were, at 
> times,  misquoted, and were certainly misrepresented and maligned,
> I ask the 
> following questions:
> 
> Is this the way to conduct a machlokes l'shem Shamayim?  Does
> publshing a 
> newspaper give one a heter to engage in rechilus and to be motzi
> laaz?  Do 
> the halachic standards of this list allow for us to repeat that
> rechilus and 
> to give it further airing?
> 

In answer to the last question, I would think that if one paskens
that one may read newspapers which contain lashon hara (based on the
Rambam's shitah that there is no violation of lashon hara when one
repeats, in a non-malicious manner, something which was already
publicized in front of three people), then one may publicize the
Yated Neeman article.  In the case at hand, it seems to me that the
intent was non-malicious (i.e., regarding the people about whom the
article was written)--it is valuable to understand how others
perceive what is going on.  Of course, Yated Neeman itself had no
heter to publish the material, if it constitutes rechilut.

OTOH, I am mesupak what the din would be if the article constitutes
motzi shem ra (i.e., falsehood).

Also, I would appreciate your clarifying who was misquoted or
misrepresented.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

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