Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 053

Thursday, October 21 1999

• Re: Avodah V4 #52
• teachers' salaries
• Re: Re: Dor Revi'i on the Difference between Avraham and Noah
• Re: teachers' salaries
• Re: teachers' salaries
• What is a Rabbi?
• Re: teachers' salaries
• Zemirot with Shem
• Teacher's pay
• Re: Zemirot with Shem
• Re: Zemirot with Shem
• Zemirot with Shem
• Yoatzot
• Malkitzedek
• Ken yehi ratzon
• Re: Yoatzot
• Salaries
• Re: Salaries
• Re: Salaries
• Re: Malkitzedek
• Re: Ken yehi ratzon
• Re: Limited learning
• Head-scratchers in Yated
• "Professionalism" of women gynecologists
• Most People Do Mitzvoth For Social Reasons?

R, Wolope wrote:


"Let us say we scientifically surveyed NCSY alumni of the last several decades
and came up with the following:

NCSY has:
A) Prevented 345 Intermarriages
B) Faciliated "negio" in 176 cases (amongst those who would otherwise never
engaged in that behavior)
C) Increased observance amongst 1,439 members
D) Decreased obeservance (or caused bittul) amongs 721 members.
E) Taught 322,141 divrei Torah
F) Caused 98,422 occasions of "Kol Isho"....."

     I know this is hypothetical but it is also way off.  I personally made a
study of one NCSY program (Camp NCSY Sports) & found out over 40% (plus I
couldn't track a lot of them down) of the P.S. students from 1990-1998 went on
to Yeshiva.  NCSY is far from perfect but I do not believe  (a) people are over
negiah because of NCSY; (b) that 1/3 of the affected people by NCSY were
effected for the worse; (c) They have a psak that group singing is not kol isha.
I have a very high regard for R. Wolope, but I think his question if it needs to
be asked should be said not with hypothetical facts about a real organization.


Moshe

Is there a connection between the fact that the deplorably low salaries in
chinuch are even lower for RW women (as well as other women, even if it is
"only" because they have no smicha), and the idea that women's learning is
less valuable to the community than men's and ought to receive less
support?

Also... while in the short run, it seems that the fact that there are
hundreds of applications for one job may keep the prices down, may it not
in the long run have the effect of pushing people toward fields where they
can make a living?  Especially when the supply of prosperous
fathers-in-law runs out?

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu

Micha Berger wrote:

<<<

:                        The DR attributes this failure to Noah's lack
: of faith (mi-katnei amunah haya), because his faith was simply the
: legacy he had received from his ancestors (the righteous ones of 
: each generation).  But Noah himself did not comprehend G-d
: through his own intellect.  He was therefore not self-confident
: enough to engage in a dialogue with his contemporaries about
: matters of faith lest his own faith be compromised and he fall under
: their evil influence.

It's interesting to contrast this opinion with that of the Kuzari. To the
Kuzari, tradition is more sure than philosophy. After all, one philosopher
can prove X, and the other can produce a logical argument for not-X. (This
knowledge of both sides of the argument is a key element, lihavdil, in Jesuit
training.) The Kuzari attributes Greek philosophy to their lack of more
certain knowledge through tradition.
>>>

An interesting point.  But one could, I think, reconcile the Dor Revi'i
with the Kuzari (of course I don't know that he would have wanted to
be reconciled on this point).  The DR wasn't necessarily saying that 
intellect is superior to tradition.  He was just saying that Noah was
psychologically inhibited from taking the risk of engaging his 
contemporaries and he attributed this to a lack of sufficient 
clarity in Noah's understanding of G-d and of right conduct.  The
problem may have been a defect in Noah's tradition.  At any
rate, Avraham achieved a degree of confidence in his 
understanding of G-d that allowed him to risk the engagement
with his contemporaries that Noah avoided.  The comparison 
between Avraham and Noah is between their psychological 
makeups not just between the paths they followed in achieving
knowledge of the RshO.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               !
!
!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              

It saddens me that you take an issue that should be of global interest, one
we can, in principle, agree upon, and artificially introduce the RW/MO
divide.

I feel I must nevertheless respond.

It would seem to me taht if anything, from your line of reasoning, the crime
of lower salaries for women is more heinous in the MO world, that you
pereceive to value women's learning, than in the RW world. Lesser gap
(perhaps - I am skeptical), but greater misjustice.

L'gufo shel inyan, I do not accept that women's learning is less valued in
RW schools than MO ones. Indeed, the RW girls generally, receive, in the
better schools, an outstanding Limudei Kodesh education - superior in many
respects to that of the boys. A diffrent curriculum does not mean less
value.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@columbia.edu>
To: Avodah <avodah@aishdas.org>
Cc: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@columbia.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 12:32 PM
Subject: teachers' salaries


> Is there a connection between the fact that the deplorably low salaries in
> chinuch are even lower for RW women (as well as other women, even if it is
> "only" because they have no smicha), and the idea that women's learning is
> less valuable to the community than men's and ought to receive less
> support?
>

RYGB said:

> It saddens me that you take an issue that should be of global
> interest, one we can, in principle, agree upon, and artificially
> introduce the RW/MO divide.

That wasn't particularly my point, more of an aside.  It's more a matter
of degree anyway, I expect.

> It would seem to me taht if anything, from your line of reasoning, the
> crime of lower salaries for women is more heinous in the MO world,
> that you pereceive to value women's learning, than in the RW world.
> Lesser gap (perhaps - I am skeptical), but greater misjustice.

That hadn't occurred to me, but now that you mention it, I don't disagree.
The MO (at least some of them) DO seem to have a level of theory that
ought to lead to greater practice than seems to be extant in the more RW
world.

> L'gufo shel inyan, I do not accept that women's learning is less
> valued in RW schools than MO ones. Indeed, the RW girls generally,
> receive, in the better schools, an outstanding Limudei Kodesh
> education - superior in many respects to that of the boys. A diffrent
> curriculum does not mean less value.

I'm basing my impression to some extent on RYGB's position, finally
articulated on this list after some prodding, that one of his principal
objections to the yoatzot program was that it diverted educational
resources from men to women.  It seems to me that this attitude is
somewhat coterminous, if not causative, with the even-lower salaries for
women teachers, in whatever area of the Jewish world we care to concern
ourselves with.

Of course the supply-and-demand issue is enormously important.


Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu

>>
(I hope this post did not sound too autocratic. If anyone has a differing view, 
PLEASE share it with us!)

Akiva Miller<<

2 additional cases:

1) Semicha can be a form of degree, somewhat equivlaent to a Master's of Jewish 
Law
2) It can be used as a title by non-Musmachim when they serve as spiritual 
leaders, Mora d'asro's. (IOW defacto rabbis)

Rich Wolpoe

----- Original Message -----
From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@columbia.edu>
To: Avodah <avodah@aishdas.org>

> I'm basing my impression to some extent on RYGB's position, finally
> articulated on this list after some prodding, that one of his principal
> objections to the yoatzot program was that it diverted educational
> resources from men to women.  It seems to me that this attitude is
> somewhat coterminous, if not causative, with the even-lower salaries for
> women teachers, in whatever area of the Jewish world we care to concern
> ourselves with.

The resources for Hilchos THM, not Tanach (more resources should, indeed, be
devoted to men learning Tanach, but that is an independent problem).

reb Sammy Ominsky writes, "Before Succot, we had a brief discussion of
singing zemirot with or without the Shem Hashem."
I'm sorry I missed the discussion, I was in EY for succos, and I missed
around two weeks of Avodah.
It is my impression that in the Chassidishe world zemiros are always sung
with the Shem.  If I recall correctly I once read in the Piaczezner Rebbe
that this is important when singing shiros vesishbachos to Hashem.  I know
that my father always sings the Shem Hashem when he sings zemiros.  (Since
you apparently live in Baltimore, you probably know my father, R. Tzvi
Hersh Weinreb Shlita).
I never really understood the rationale for singing without pronouncing
the Shem, we say Hashem's name in virtually every other Piyut and Selichah
and Yotzros without questioning it at all.  The shabbos zemiros are no
less holy.  Although it is true that some zemiros are of "acharonic" 
origin as opposed to most of the yotros which are "rishonic", this is not
always the case, and why should that make a difference?
Also, you wrote "R. Heinneman did, though,
point out the objection of some to "Tzur Mishelo" on the grounds that by
singing it with the Shem we may be fulfilling our obligation of Birkat
Hamazon. He answered, though, that that would require mention of Brit and
Yerushalaim, which it doesn't, so we're safe with singing it with the
SHem."
I must comment though that a) we do mention yerushalayim, and b)according
to some poskim you can be yotzay your chiyuv of one bracha as a partial
birchas hamazon, so even if you didn't complete your chiyuv of three
brachos midoraysah and one drabbanan, you still may have fulfilled part of
your chiyuv, making it difficult to justify bentching again in its
entirety. A better terutz is simply to be mechavayn not to be yotzay your
chiyuv birchas hamazon, then you have no problem.
Shaul Weinreb

> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:33:53 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Elizabeth Dole and the Gender Gap
> 
> - --- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
> <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> > To my mind, the existence of such a gap is inexcusable. I find it
> > particularly inexcusable in the world of Chinuch. It is an ill-kept
> > secret
> > that women in the Chinuch field get paid less than men for
> > comparable
> > teaching loads - in schools from the most MO to the most RW "ish lo
> > ne'edar".
> 
> I too deplore the low pay.  However, I think that from an economic
> viewpoint it is understandable--it is a result of supply and demand. 
> If R. Svei discourages women from going into any profession other
> than chinuch, this means (at least in his circles) that there will be
> many women vying for too few jobs.  Even in MO circles, the gender
> gap in chinuch pay may derive from the fact that there is a gender
> gap in non-chinuch pay.  If the average woman makes 70% of what men
> make (I don't remember the exact figure, but this number seems
> vaguely familiar), and if people (for idealistic reasons) would
> rather be in chinuch than in other professions, that means that it's
> much easier to attract women to lower paying chinuch jobs than to
> attract men to such low-paying jobs.
> 
> This does not mean that the Jewish community should not raise
> mechanchot's salaries.  It just means that it will be very difficult
> to convince schools that it's absolutely necessary to do so.
> 
> Kol tuv,
> Moshe
> 
\\
In many parts of the countryh teacher's pay is low even in the secular 
schools.

The questions is still where is the money going to come from.  It is very 
easy for people to volunteer their neighbors (or so called machers ) to 
give more, but it doesn't work that way.  Tuition can be increased, (even 
ignoring the hardship on those who will pay it, and the hashkafic issues 
resulting from those who will say no more and send their children to 
public schools) if it decreases the students in Yeshivot there will be 
even a bigger glut of those in Chinuch.

Speaking about paying for chinuch, a bigger problem, is  those yeshivot who 
are not paying their staff and are weeks, if not months behind.  

I believe the objection is from the GRO and applies to singing even with
saying "Hashem".

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Saul J Weinreb <sweinr1@uic.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 2:01 PM
Subject: Zemirot with Shem

> Also, you wrote "R. Heinneman did, though,
> point out the objection of some to "Tzur Mishelo" on the grounds that by
> singing it with the Shem we may be fulfilling our obligation of Birkat
> Hamazon. He answered, though, that that would require mention of Brit and
> Yerushalaim, which it doesn't, so we're safe with singing it with the
> SHem."
> I must comment though that a) we do mention yerushalayim, and b)according
> to some poskim you can be yotzay your chiyuv of one bracha as a partial
> birchas hamazon, so even if you didn't complete your chiyuv of three
> brachos midoraysah and one drabbanan, you still may have fulfilled part of
> your chiyuv, making it difficult to justify bentching again in its
> entirety. A better terutz is simply to be mechavayn not to be yotzay your
> chiyuv birchas hamazon, then you have no problem.
> Shaul Weinreb
>
>

Saul J Weinreb wrote:


> you apparently live in Baltimore, you probably know my father, R. Tzvi
> Hersh Weinreb Shlita).

Yes I do, and I knew you once upon a time, too. I was in your father's Daf
Yomi shiur a few years ago.



> I must comment though that a) we do mention yerushalayim,


Yes. My misquote, not his mistake.




> entirety. A better terutz is simply to be mechavayn not to be yotzay your
> chiyuv birchas hamazon, then you have no problem.


Very nice for those who are careful to be mechaven, but I think we need
another terutz for those who are not. Are they being yotze their hiyuv
inadvertently according to the opinion that you can be with only one
beracha?


---sam

I believe the objection is from the GRO and applies to singing even with 
saying "Hashem".

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
----- Original Message -----
From: Saul J Weinreb <sweinr1@uic.edu> 
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 2:01 PM 
Subject: Zemirot with Shem

> Also, you wrote "R. Heinneman did, though,
> point out the objection of some to "Tzur Mishelo" on the grounds that by 
> singing it with the Shem we may be fulfilling our obligation of Birkat
> Hamazon. <snip><<

Is this true that one can be yotzei benching even without saying the formulaic 
Boruch Ato .... and w/o Melech Olom?

Rich Wolpoe

And here I thought that this thread had been brought to an end.....

Gershon

> Who else wasn't involved in building the migdal? I assume we can 
> include Noach, Sheim, Ever and Malchitzedek (according to those who
don't identify 
> him with Ever)
	Did you mean Shem or is there another Midrash identifying Malkitzedek
with Ever?

Gershon

Any sources on the custom of answering "ken yehi ratzon" when the sh"tz
says birchas kohanim (as opposed to amen when the kohanim say it)?  

Is one permitted to be mafsik, e.g. during pesukei dezimra to answer
k.y.r.?

What about during other tefilos with lesser hefsek requirements?

Gershon

In a message dated 10/21/99 2:59:31 PM EST, gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

>  And here I thought that this thread had been brought to an end.....

Vashiva... Yoatzayich Kvatchila :-)

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>

> It's not a sense of humor.  It's the halacha.  "Ma ani b'chinam af 
atem b'chinam" means that you're entitled to schar batala.  If  you're
not trained in a profession, salaries are pretty low in the U.S.  (think
minimum wage).

From: Yzkd@aol.com
> The problem is that the ones that in some instances the more capable 
> women  (and also men) will chose to get their Parnasah Bharchava in
other fields.

	Apparently schar batala is not being properly evaluated.  Those whose
schar batala is higher than the going rate in chinuch are, often,  going
into the other fields.

Gershon

In a message dated 10/21/99 3:03:46 PM EST, gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

>   Apparently schar batala is not being properly evaluated.  Those whose
>  schar batala is higher than the going rate in chinuch are, often,  going
>  into the other fields.
>  
And by women I don't know if Schar Batoloh need be considered in the first 
place.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

--- Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com> wrote:
> From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
> 
> > It's not a sense of humor.  It's the halacha.  "Ma ani b'chinam
> af 
> atem b'chinam" means that you're entitled to schar batala.  If 
> you're
> not trained in a profession, salaries are pretty low in the U.S. 
> (think
> minimum wage).
> 
> From: Yzkd@aol.com
> > The problem is that the ones that in some instances the more
> capable 
> > women  (and also men) will chose to get their Parnasah Bharchava
> in
> other fields.
> 
> 	Apparently schar batala is not being properly evaluated.  Those
> whose
> schar batala is higher than the going rate in chinuch are, often, 
> going
> into the other fields.
> 

Not necessarily.  Let's say that 20% of mechanchim are trained in
another profession (and their schar batala is $50,000, since they
could be working at professions paying $100,000) and 80% are not (and
their schar batala is $20,000).  Because of the laws of supply and
demand, the average salary should be $26,000.

And if the supply of mechanchim who are not trained in another
profession exceeds the demand for mechanchim, the salary should be
$20,000.

OTOH, if you think that the type of people who are capable of making
parnassah b'harchava would be *better* mechanchim, then you would
make a separate category of those mechanchim and pay them more.  But
I doubt that would fly.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Yes, I misstyped. I meant, that Malkitzedek could be counted amongst those
who didn't build the migdal except according to those who'd say you already
counted him when you counted Sheim.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 21-Oct-99: Chamishi, Lech-Lecha
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 56b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

The Berger family minhag is to respond to the Chazan's rendition of birchas
kohanim with "Kein yehi ratzon bizchus Avraham avinu", "... Yitzchak avinu",
and "... Ya'akov avinu". Our minhagim, though, are a pretty eclectic mix.
Does anyone know where this particular custom comes from?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 21-Oct-99: Chamishi, Lech-Lecha
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 56b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Even in the time of the Amoraim, not everyone studied all the sdarim (see:
the gemara at the end of Bava Metzia 114a-b re: not learning Seder Taharot).
And the see the Meiri's Peticha to Pirkei Avot: "timtza bitshuvat she'ela
l'echad min hayeshivot b'inyan neder, heyviya harav hanasi Albartzeloni
b'chiburo hagadol v'katav ba: 'd'u neemana shelo nishneit mesechet nedarim
beyeshiva zeh me'ah shana'".

Josh

Two of them, actually:

"If the people at Nishmat are sincere in their wishes to help Orthodox
women, maybe they should start listening more closely to what Orthodox
women have to say about their activities."

Huh? R' Henkin said only that the majority of those who have complained to her 
have been women -- this says little about the opinion of O. women as a whole.

And it looks like R' Feldman didn't come out so well either when "correctly" cited by Yated:

"For example,
we don't see them attempting to increase the level of observance of mitzvos
associated with women, such as dressing modestly, or engaging in neutral
mitzvos, such as davening."

We don't? Didn't any Yatednikes hear about women's tefilah groups? I'm sure someone there must have condemned them.

"This proves beyond doubt that most of them are driven not by an urge to
perform more mitzvos and thus become better Jews, but by feminism and the
desire to prove that they are equal to men."

Somehow, one still doubts...

Gosh, I gotta start reading Yated more often -- it gives one's logic circuits a refreshing workout.

Sholem Berger

>>  And the modern trend of having female 
>> gynecologists (or should that be GIRLnecolists <smile>) should be embraced 
by 
>>  the RW as giving women an alternative to disrobing for the sake of a 
medical  
>>  exam.   

>It is, when professionalism is not compromised.

I don't understand what you (RYZ) mean here.  Is it that (a) women gynecologists aren't as professional, or (b) women gynecologists lead (somehow?) to less professionalism on the wards and in practice? Or maybe that women gynecologists get paid less (that I could possibly believe)?  

Any evidence that women gynecologists are less "professional" would certainly be a surprise to those of us in health care!

Sholem Berger

In v4#48, Russell Hendel writes:

>A famous Gmarrah says RYBZ (Yochanan ben Zacai) when asked to bless his
students
>answered "May your fear of
>Heaven be like your fear of man". When they protested
>"Is that all you can give us" he answered "Know that
>when a person sins he says 'I hope no one is seeing me'"

>So RYBZ holds that most people do miztvoth for social
>reasons.

This conclusion does not follow. RYBZ  holds that we
ordinarily do mitzvos l'shem shamayim, but that our inhibitions
about sinning before Hashem are weaker than our inhibitions about
sinning before our fellows, and it is the latter that often saves us
from sin. His blessing to his students is therefore that their yiras
shamayim (which he presupposes that they really have) match their
yiras basar v'dam. The mere fact that social inhibitions are usually
stronger than religious inhibitions does not mean that people have
only social motives for religious acts.

Kol Tuv,
David

********************


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