Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 052

Thursday, October 21 1999

• Re: Dor Revi'i on the difference between Avraham and Noah
• Re: Avraham and dor hapalagah
• Re: Elizabeth Dole and the Gender Gap
• limited learning
• Re: Yoatzot as covered in Yated
• Re: Elizabeth Dole and the Gender Gap
• Re: Elizabeth Dole and the Gender Gap
• Chacham she'assar
• Re: Elizabeth Dole and the Gender Gap
• Re: Elizabeth Dole and the Gender Gap
• Re: Yoatzot as covered in Yated
• Re: Zemirot with Shem
• Re: Elizabeth Dole and the Gender Gap
• Re: NCSY
• limited learning
• Re: Elizabeth Dole and the Gender Gap
• NCSY
• What is a Rabbi?

David Glasner <DGLASNER@FTC.GOV> writes bisheim his ancestor:
:                        The DR attributes this failure to Noah's lack
: of faith (mi-katnei amunah haya), because his faith was simply the
: legacy he had received from his ancestors (the righteous ones of 
: each generation).  But Noah himself did not comprehend G-d
: through his own intellect.  He was therefore not self-confident
: enough to engage in a dialogue with his contemporaries about
: matters of faith lest his own faith be compromised and he fall under
: their evil influence.

It's interesting to contrast this opinion with that of the Kuzari. To the
Kuzari, tradition is more sure than philosophy. After all, one philosopher
can prove X, and the other can produce a logical argument for not-X. (This
knowledge of both sides of the argument is a key element, lihavdil, in Jesuit
training.) The Kuzari attributes Greek philosophy to their lack of more
certain knowledge through tradition.

Of course, this itself is a philosophical position.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 21-Oct-99: Chamishi, Lech-Lecha
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 56b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

The idea that Avraham was alive during Migdal Bavel could add meaning to the
expression "viromamtanu mikol halshonos".

Who else wasn't involved in building the migdal? I assume we can include Noach,
Sheim, Ever and Malchitzedek (according to those who don't identify him with
Ever). In addition, I remember seeing commented on seifer Yonah that Ashur was
rewarded by his non-participation with being the keeper of K'sav Ashuris and
with Nineveh's second chance.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 21-Oct-99: Chamishi, Lech-Lecha
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 56b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> To my mind, the existence of such a gap is inexcusable. I find it
> particularly inexcusable in the world of Chinuch. It is an ill-kept
> secret
> that women in the Chinuch field get paid less than men for
> comparable
> teaching loads - in schools from the most MO to the most RW "ish lo
> ne'edar".

I too deplore the low pay.  However, I think that from an economic
viewpoint it is understandable--it is a result of supply and demand. 
If R. Svei discourages women from going into any profession other
than chinuch, this means (at least in his circles) that there will be
many women vying for too few jobs.  Even in MO circles, the gender
gap in chinuch pay may derive from the fact that there is a gender
gap in non-chinuch pay.  If the average woman makes 70% of what men
make (I don't remember the exact figure, but this number seems
vaguely familiar), and if people (for idealistic reasons) would
rather be in chinuch than in other professions, that means that it's
much easier to attract women to lower paying chinuch jobs than to
attract men to such low-paying jobs.

This does not mean that the Jewish community should not raise
mechanchot's salaries.  It just means that it will be very difficult
to convince schools that it's absolutely necessary to do so.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

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> Subject: Specialization
> 
> "As to R. Lichtenstien's reported objection, I'm not sure I understand
> his reasons.  What possible problem could there be in a limiting ones
> area of expertise? It's done all the time as was pointed out by a poster
> there are para-leagals, para-medics and the like.  Why not a
> Para-posek?"
> 
Again I am not sure I agree, but R. Lichtenstein's attitude is that
learning is different than para- and it should be more fundamental
and so more broad based. Hence, one should should not learn to become
an expert in a limited area.

Eli Turkel

--- Shlomo Godick <shlomog@mehish.co.il> wrote:
> The English Yated has the following take on this subject  (note
> that the
> position of Rav Aharon Feldman, as quoted in the article, is
> similar in
> certain
> respects to that of Rav Lichtenstein):
> 

Actually, R. Lichtenstein's position is similar to the view of R.
Feldman (no relation to me) as transmitted by the Jewish Week (i.e.,
concern with knowledge of all of halacha, rather than specializing). 
In the interview with Yated, R. Feldman adds:
> "The desire to make changes in our long-standing tradition stems
> from the
> same flaw in hashkafa that lies at the very roots of the Reform
> Movement-the urge to introduce goyish values in Torah-true Judaism.
> Some
> people may try to couch such attempts by citing halachic proofs and
> legalistic justifications, but as long as they are driven by the
> desire to
> keep up with contemporary values, their actions are possul.
<snip>
> "What's interesting is that these progressive religious women are
> always
> fighting to observe mitzvos traditionally associated with men. For
> example,
> we don't see them attempting to increase the level of observance of
> mitzvos
> associated with women, such as dressing modestly, or engaging in
> neutral
> mitzvos, such as davening. They always zero in specifically on
> mitzvos
> traditionally performed by men.
> "This proves beyond doubt that most of them are driven not by an
> urge to
> perform more mitzvos and thus become better Jews, but by feminism
> and the
> desire to prove that they are equal to men."


=====

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I think that the same glut applies, nowadays, in the male sector as the
female sector. Droves of young men today are educated and trained to be
desirous and capable only of entering the chinuch field. I am told that
low-level elementary school positions in the NYC area regularly receive
hundreds of applications per opening. The best yungeleit in Chicago consider
it to be a great "catch" to take an elementary school teaching position in
the higher grades.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Dole and the Gender Gap


> --- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
> <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> > To my mind, the existence of such a gap is inexcusable. I find it
> > particularly inexcusable in the world of Chinuch. It is an ill-kept
> > secret
> > that women in the Chinuch field get paid less than men for
> > comparable
> > teaching loads - in schools from the most MO to the most RW "ish lo
> > ne'edar".
>
> I too deplore the low pay.  However, I think that from an economic
> viewpoint it is understandable--it is a result of supply and demand.
> If R. Svei discourages women from going into any profession other
> than chinuch, this means (at least in his circles) that there will be
> many women vying for too few jobs.  Even in MO circles, the gender
> gap in chinuch pay may derive from the fact that there is a gender
> gap in non-chinuch pay.  If the average woman makes 70% of what men
> make (I don't remember the exact figure, but this number seems
> vaguely familiar), and if people (for idealistic reasons) would
> rather be in chinuch than in other professions, that means that it's
> much easier to attract women to lower paying chinuch jobs than to
> attract men to such low-paying jobs.
>
> This does not mean that the Jewish community should not raise
> mechanchot's salaries.  It just means that it will be very difficult
> to convince schools that it's absolutely necessary to do so.
>
> Kol tuv,
> Moshe
>
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>

In a message dated 10/21/99 9:38:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

<< 
 Some of us on the list, on the other hand, may find it more galling that
 many (I assume not all) MO schools have this policy, in light of the
 expectation that they should be more "forward-thinking". I cannot disagree
 :-). Some schools justify this by claiming that semicha (often in these
 cases a "Rav u'Manhig certificate, not even "Yoreh Yoreh", v'dai l'chacima
 b'remiza) is the equivalent of an advance degree. I find this position
 dubious.
 
 I do not expect the policy to change, as board members of local elementary
 schools have explained to me that this is part of the stategy to keep
 tuition "low". But, nevertheless, it is chagrining.
 
 Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
 Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
 http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org
 
 
  >>
Having been deeply involved in our local Yeshiva Ketana, I can tell you that 
the reason for these inequities locally is primarily supply and demand.  We 
had to pay more to certain teachers who were in short supply (e.g. MO males 
with smicha) than those who weren't (Kollel wives). I often wonder if the 
general level of teachers pay (although it has locally improved over the last 
15 years) is HKBH's ironic sense of humor over taking pay for teaching tora 
(of course this wouldn't explain the low pay for teaching professionals 
outside of lmudei kodesh)

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

Reb   writes, "As R' Eli's post makes clear, according to the Netziv (and
the rishonim who base the priciple of chacham she'asar on kavod chachamim,
rather than shavya chaticha d'isura, namely, Rashi and the Ran), the
problem of permitting a previously forbidden eiruv exists whether or not a
sha'ayla was ever asked of the chacham who prohibitted the eiruv. The
problem is compounded if the chacham she'asar happens to be muflog 
b'chachma and m'fursam as one of the g'dolay hador (such a chacham being
considered as ones rav muvhak for certain halachic purposes even if one
never studied with him - see YD 242). Consider in this regard Jonathon
Baker's post in V4#46 about those who permit eiruvim in respectful
disagreement with R' Moshe Feinstein."
Would there be any difference if the disagreement was based on a
previously known machlokes which has already been paskened by poskim of
previous generations? i.e. I know that you would like to avoid the issues
of the Chicago Eruv for fear of starting some serious mudslinging and
"darchei noam" problems, but I will tread on dangerous ground hoping that
congenial conversation is possible.
I have always thought that the reason why the rule of Chacham she'assar
.... doesn't apply to the Chicago eruv dispute is because the primary
objection of Rav Ahron is based on the Shita of the Rishonim that any road
that is 15 amos wide was a reshus harabbim de'oraysoh.  This is an old
well known machlokes rishonim, and the poskim who are in support of the
Eruv are relying on the Mattirim, upon whom much of klal Yisrael has
relied for centuries.
The rule of Chacham she'assar may not be relevant here.  For example, if
my chassidishe posek rules for me that I should not wear tefillin on Chol
Hamoed, another posek would not be bound by his psak and would be within
his rights to pasken for his following that one should wear tefillin.
This is not just a matter of custom, but also a matter of halachah (for
example, there were major chassidishe poskim that ruled that one should
wear tefillin on Chol Hamoed even though they generally followed chassidic
custom - e.g. the Divrei Chaim ZT'L for single bachurim).
I assume that since these different opinions are well known and well
debated among the poskim, posek B is not really arguing on posek A when he
issues his ruling, he is only relating his da'as based on previous poskim.
In the same way, the mattirim of the eruv are not arguing on Rav Ahron,
they are just stating that there are justifiable, well known shitos, upon
whom Klal Yisrael has relied for many years, that would permit using this
eruv.  If one would like to be machmir, then one has every right to do so.
I honestly do not want to make this a mudslinging match.  I admit that I
use the eruv in Chicago, but I am willing to engage in honest debate that
we can all learn from.  I will try B'Ezras Hashem not to simply repeat old
stories and trade insults. "Some of my best friends don't use the eruv
:-)" 
Shaul Weinreb

But is that ethical (from a Torah viewpoint, not a capitolist one)?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <Joelirich@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Dole and the Gender Gap


> Having been deeply involved in our local Yeshiva Ketana, I can tell you
that
> the reason for these inequities locally is primarily supply and demand.
We
> had to pay more to certain teachers who were in short supply (e.g. MO
males > with smicha) than those who weren't (Kollel wives). I often wonder
if the

--- Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
>I often wonder
> if the 
> general level of teachers pay (although it has locally improved
> over the last 
> 15 years) is HKBH's ironic sense of humor over taking pay for
> teaching tora 
> (of course this wouldn't explain the low pay for teaching
> professionals 
> outside of lmudei kodesh)

It's not a sense of humor.  It's the halacha.  "Ma ani b'chinam af
atem b'chinam" means that you're entitled to schar batala.  If you're
not trained in a profession, salaries are pretty low in the U.S.
(think minimum wage).

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

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I too subscribe to Yated via email.  They never fail to get my blood
boiling.  While I respect their positions, I can't stand the
journalistic tricks they pull.  Here are some examples:

> And what is particularly pathetic is that this
> institution
> appears to be employing underhand (sic) tactics to reach its
objective,
> hiding
> behind the veil of halacha instead of stating its aims clearly.

That's an unfair characterization.  R. Henkin (isn't her name Chana,
not Emunah) has all along delineated what a yoetzet does, and has
indicated that a yoetzet has halachic authority but less than that of
a posek.

> Henkin
> expressed her humble belief that the graduates of the two-year
> Nishmat
> program "are at least as well versed in the intricacies of ritual
> purity
> laws as many rabbinic poseks."

"Humble"--classic Yated sarcasm.

> Deena Zimmerman, one of the graduates lauded at the Sheraton Plaza
> ceremony, was asked whether the Nishmat program "could lead to
> women being
> rabbis."
> Her response was extremely surprising, coming as it does from an
> Orthodox
> person: "Well," said Zimmerman, "that brings up the question of
> what is a
> full-fledged rabbi, and that question isn't totally answered."
> What makes Zimmerman's response even stranger is that she is a
> graduate of
> a course that supposedly makes her an expert in halacha. Surely a
> competent
> Nishmat-certified halachic consultant such as herself, who
> underwent two
> entire years of halachic study, should have emerged with a clearer
> understanding of where the job of consultant ends and that of
> "full-fledged
> rabbi" begins. 

Wait.  She wasn't asked whether she's a full-fledged rabbi.  She was
asked whether this could *lead* to full-fledged rabbis.

And of course, the objections to Orthodox women rabbis are not
clearly delineated.  While there is a problem to exercise s'rarah,
there is no problem in being a poseket (certainly to women).

> The problem here is that Nishmat's leaders and graduates are
> speaking two
> different languages, depending upon the identity of their
> listeners. When
> they come within earshot of members of the religious establishment,
> Henkin
> makes a point of referring to her graduates as "consultants," and
> diplomatically explains that "although halacha leaves no room for
> women
> 'rabbis,' it does provide for 'full partners in interpreting the
> law.'"

Excuse me, what is so hard to understand about this chiluk?  Why
accuse R. Henkin of doublespeak?

> Spoken like a true politician.

Additional sarcasm, courtesy of Yated.

> Rabbi Dr. Norman Lamm, president of Yeshiva University and the
> program's
> biggest proponent, had this to say 


What does "biggest proponent" mean?  Rabanit Henkin is not the
biggest proponent?  A classic attempt by Yated to besmirch a program
by identifying it with Rabbi Lamm (a persona non grata in RW
circles).


Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

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Before Succot, we had a brief discussion of singing zemirot with or
without the Shem Hashem.

I finally got to ask R. Heinneman (of Agudath Israel of Baltimore, and Ner
Israel) what he thinks.

According to him... really, we should sing all the zemirot as written. But
some are afraid that our tunes would make the zemirot not make sense
(repeating or cutting off words) or, as R. Juravel, who happened to be
nearby, said, being blessed with a large family, it's just not practical
for him, as in; 'Baruch (K)El Elyon... Yankie GET OFF THE TABLE!!!" is
just not an appropriate use of the Shem.


R. Yosef Rottenberg (Rosh Yeshiva of T.A., the local Yeshiva day school),
on the other hand, is adamant that the zemirot be sung as written, and
cites R. Ovadia (told me to look it up for myself, actually, which I
haven't have time to do since last night).


R. Heinneman did, though, point out the objection of some to "Tzur
Mishelo" on the grounds that by singing it with the Shem we may be
fulfilling our obligation of Birkat Hamazon. He answered, though, that
that would require mention of Brit and Yerushalaim, which it doesn't, so
we're safe with singing it with the SHem.


---sam

In a message dated 10/21/99 9:38:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

> I do not expect the policy to change, as board members of local elementary
>  schools have explained to me that this is part of the stategy to keep
>  tuition "low". But, nevertheless, it is chagrining.
>  
The problem is that the ones that in some instances the more capable women 
(and also men) will chose to get their Parnasah Bharchava in other fields.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok

In a message dated 10/20/99 8:55:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< Chizuk is of the utmost importance.  I certainly
 believe that very often in all kinds of Yeshiva high
 schools there are individuals who need chizuk in one
 form or another.  But, to my mind, there is very
 little room for an NCSY type Chizuk program.  NCSY
 should be geared to Kiruv.  The reason Yeshivos should
 not get involved at the high school level is that at
 the extremely hormonal level that teenagers operate
 (especially in the girl free environment of a
 Yeshiva), I think that Chizuk is  not what is going on
 in Taruvos situatuions.  It's more like...socializing
 with girls. I don't think that throwing a bunch of
 teenage boys into this situation is a good idea. I
 know because once upon a time, during the Mesozoic
 era, I was a teenager and I remember!  There are much
 better forms of Chizuk that yeshiva students can avail
 themselves of. Such as sympathetic Rebbeim,
 Mashgichim, parents, or other family members.  It
 should be a rare exception when a high school student
 is allowed to go on an NCSY event.  Of course my son
 in law went when he he was in high school but he was
 national president then and had come from a small town
 where he had already been active, so, he was one of
 those rare exceptions. I obviously agree that there
 should be RARE exceptions, with emphasis on the word
 RARE and on a case by case basis. 
  >>

I would agree with you 100% regarding students at Yeshivos. But students at 
co-ed Y.H.S., such as Frisch, Flatbush, Ramaz, Ida Crown, et al, do very well 
in NCSY. And not to sound like a pessimist, but Hal'vai there is socializing  
going on. I would much rather have my children meet in a supervised, 
wholesome, Torah saturated environment like NCSY than at a pizza shop in 
Woodbourne. (NY'ers will understand exactly what I mean). If my son is in 
Torah Vodaath, I agree that it is less of an issue. But my post wasn't really 
directed at those kids. Look, not to sound like an expert, but you have to 
spend a few years doing it 30 Shabbatot a year, as I did, with both Yeshiva 
and P.S. kids, to see how these things really play out. BTW, who is your son 
in law the National President? 

Jordan


  

Isn't there already limited certification in Shechita? Nikkur? Milo?

It probably makes sense to begin certifying mashgichim - not to replace Rav 
hamachsirim - but to be trained as to be yodei'a lish'ol.

I am very curious to hear R. Lichtenstine's {alleged} objections in context.

See the Reshuyos for Chosson Torah and Chosson Breishis.  It seems implicit that
there were various specialties, and it would be a stretch to say every leader 
was a "baal" of every specialty.

Rich wolpoe

--- Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> It's not a sense of humor.  It's the halacha.  "Ma ani b'chinam af
> atem b'chinam" means that you're entitled to schar batala.  If
> you're
> not trained in a profession, salaries are pretty low in the U.S.
> (think minimum wage).

I should add that a mechanech is entitled to schar shimur (watching
the children; essentially, babysitting); see Nedarim 37a.  But, child
care workers aren't paid very much (which is another problem).

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

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Hypothetically speaking:

Let us say we scientifically surveyed NCSY alumni of the last several decades 
and came up with the following:

NCSY has:
A) Prevented 345 Intermarriages
B) Faciliated "negio" in 176 cases (amongst those who would otherwise never 
engaged in that behavior)
C) Increased observance amongst 1,439 members
D) Decreased obeservance (or caused bittul) amongs 721 members. 
E) Taught 322,141 divrei Torah
F) Caused 98,422 occasions of "Kol Isho"

Now, in your mind complete the following resolution:

Whereas NCSY's contribution to Yiddishket amongst Jewsih youth has overall been 
{negative | positive} during the last few decades; 
...
Be it resolved that we should {discontinue | re-inforce} NCSY and seek {an 
alternative organization |to reduce its shortcomings} during the next several 
decades. 

Rich Wolpoe

Many thanks to Shlomo Godick for sharing the article about the yoatzot in
Yated. I think this article is a great example of how semantics has
clouded this issue.

<<< Deena Zimmerman ... was asked whether the Nishmat program "could lead
to women being rabbis." ... "Well," said Zimmerman, "that brings up the
question of what is a full-fledged rabbi, and that question isn't totally
answered." ... Surely a competent Nishmat-certified halachic consultant
such as herself, ... should have emerged with a clearer understanding of
where the job of consultant ends and that of "full-fledged rabbi" begins.
>>>

I agree. We all need a better understanding of what a "full-fleged rabbi"
is.

As far as I can tell, there is virtually no difference between a person
who has semicha, and a person who does not. According to Yoreh Deah 242,
semicha is needed only to pasken in the presence (see there for
definition of "in the presence") of one's rebbe muvhok. The Rama there
(sorry I don't have the exact se'if, but see next paragraph) says that if
one's rebbe muvhok has died -- and I've been told that the same would
apply to one who learned from many teachers and therefore has no rebbe
muvhok to begin with -- then semicha is not needed!

In the words of Rabbanit Henkin
(http://www.virtual.co.il/channels/torah/feature2.htm) <<< ... semikha
today is a heter hora'a, permission given by a rabbi/teacher to a student
permitting the student to issue halakhic rulings in the locale of, or
during the lifetime of, the teacher. Technically, in the absence, or with
the death of, the teacher, semikha is no longer required; nor is it
required in order to give a halakhic decision in the abstract, as opposed
to a ruling in a specific case, nor to merely citing an explicit ruling
in the Shulchan Arukh or other accepted text. See Shulchan Arukh, Yore
De'a 242:7, 9, 13. >>>

It seems clear that there is *halachically* no difference between a
person with (any of today's kinds of) semicha, and an ordinary layperson,
except in their knowledge and reputation. The proof is the many people
who have been relied upon for p'sak, yet did not have semicha, such as
the Chofetz Chaim.

The differences between a layperson and a person with semicha are totally
in the political and sociological areas. For example, Rabbi Bechhofer
points out that some schools pay lower salaries to teachers who do not
have semicha. Many other posters have pointed out that semicha is
virtually indispensable for become a shul rabbi, but it is very
dispensable for becoming a rosh yeshiva.

I think that we are doing a terrible disservice to Torah by pretending
that a person who has semicha has more authority than a layman who knows
a particular area of Torah better than the musmach. Don't misunderstand
me: I am not trying to undermine the authority of the LOR, the Mara
D'asra, the Rabbi of the shul. He has plenty of authority, but that
authority comes from the community he serves, not from the klaf on his
wall.

In my opinion, it is very sad that a reporter (in this case, from Yated)
can *correctly* and *accurately* write that <<< When they come within
earshot of members of the religious establishment, Henkin makes a point
of referring to her graduates as "consultants," and diplomatically
explains that "although halacha leaves no room for women 'rabbis,' it
does provide for 'full partners in interpreting the law.'" Spoken like a
true politician. >>>

(I hope this post did not sound too autocratic. If anyone has a differing
view, PLEASE share it with us!)

Akiva Miller
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