Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 047

Monday, October 18 1999

• NCSY
• tefilah
• tzniut
• para halakhah
• Holocaust Recriminations (Was: Destruction of Hungarian Jewry)
• RE: Talking to your Mother and MotherinLaw about Niddah (Avodah V4 #46)
• Re: Yoatzot - Cause for Trepidation
• Re: Yoatzot - Cause for Trepidation
• Yigal amir cherem
• Chabad + Driving on Shabbos
• [none]
• Re: Women and Privacy Issues
• Re: Avodah V4 #46
• Re: Avraham and Dor Hapalagah
• Re: asking THM questions
• Re: kallah's preparation for married life
• Re: Checking Scanners
• RESEND: Re: CHenkin article
• Re: Avraham and Dor Hapalagah
• Re: Yoatzot - Cause for Trepidation

> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:14:11 -0700 (PDT)
> From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: NCSY
> 
> 
> I feel impelled to give my take on what I beleive to
> be the one of the finest kiruv organizations in
> America. I used to think that NCSY was just an
> organization of MOdern Orthodox synogouges that was a
> stopgap, a sort of last hope for those people in small
> communiteis whose children went to public school.  As
> such I didn't have much regard for it because I
> believed that it wasn't working... that is,  that all
> so called orthodox parents who were sending their kids
> to NCSY were not successful in keeping their kids
> frum.  This was in the fifties and sixties, when I was
> a teenager growing up in Toledo, Ohio and watched many
> of friends go to organizations like NCSY and not
> really caring about their Judaism.  In almost all
> cases they were interersted in the social scene that
> NCSY provided and then they would go off to college
> and have nothing to do with authntic Judaism. 
> 
> That was then.
> 
> Fast forward to the nineties and A. Y. Weinberg,
> regional director of NCSY Midwest.  I was invited to
> attend an event back in the early part of this decade
> and was duly impressed at what I saw: Public school
> kids virtually begging for Yahadus.  Through the
> collaborative effort of Rabbi Weinberg and staff,
> Rabbi Naftali Kalter, Kiruv minded Balei Battim, and
> most importantly, dedicated advisor/volunteers, an
> atmosphere was created where being frum was cool. And
> every kid wanted to be involved. The result is nothing
> less than phenomenal.  Many kids swithched to yeshiva
> high schools or girls schools or academy(mixed) type
> schools, often at great personal sacrifice. Many who
> could not(because of tremendous parental opposition)
> switch to a yeshiva, remained at public school wearing
> Kipot(boys) and establishing a permanent daily mincha
> minyan at the school. Some of these kids went on to a
> Yeshiva Gedolah such as Telshe or WITS.  Many went on
> to Isreaeli kiruv type yeshivos that cater to this
> tyope of student of little or no background only to
> return and be totally mainstreamed in to the orthodox
> jewish community. 
> 
> I have had many NCSYers over for shabbos over the last
> few years due to my daughters' involvement as advisors
> and have been inspired  with their sincerity and
> devotion.  
> 
> A very nice fringe benefit for me was that my oldest
> daughter met her husband at NCSY.  Both are dedicated 
> and are flown in from New York (where they live) to
> attend all Midwest NCSY events so I get to see them
> pretty often.
> 
> I would, therefore, like to encourage anyone with
> connections to NCSY National leadership to redirect
> ALL resources to Kiruv, following the very successful
> model created by A. Y. Weinberg.
> 
> HM

These are very important points, but another issues that needs to be 
addressed is what happens when there is no NCSY.  In our small community 
there was a Bnei Akiva for a while, but it died when when the Israeli 
family that was here on Sabbatical went back.  The MO congregation 
started a NCSY chapter, but it never got off the ground.

where do all of the teens from the MO congregation go - to USY.  Chabad 
started a small group for teens that is atracting a growing number of 
teens, but these are mostly unaffiliated and from the C and R temples.  
This is not attracting many of the children from the MO 
congregation due to vehimient anti Chabad sentiments of their Rabbi.

If the home life of the children has a frum atmosphere, the children may 
remain frum, but otherwise things look pretty grim.


Those communities that have an active NCSY attract not only those from 
the Orthodox community, but other youth as well.

Another question about davening:

In my shul it is common for people who come late to Minchah to
say out aloud a "hecha kadisha".
I find this very disturbing to the individuals and groups that\
learn between Minchah and Maariv and are forced to interupt
their learning to answer kedusha.
Is this practice of an indidual reciting kedusha after the tzibbur
has finished legitimate especially when it disturbs others.

Eli Turkel

> 
> > To answer both points: I personally find it icky dealing with the
> > bedika cloth.  So my wife has to overcome what she knows is my
> > revulsion for even trying to ask a question.  She needs me as an
> > intermediary because our LOR won't talk to her - I think it's his own
> > personal quirk, but when we went to ask him a shaila recently, her
> > shaila, he talked at me and wouldn't look at her.  And what if he
> > needs more details?
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if Jonathan's feelings are not unique (of course I
> haven't made a study of the subject.)  As to the rabbi's feelings, it
> could be that for him it feels like an issue of tznius -- he doesn't
> really want to be talking to the woman about these things, so he looks at
> the husband.  And of course, if he needs more details, he's going to get
> the information more easily if it's directly from the wife.  Hence a need
> for yoatzot.
> 
Beyond the nidah question there are rabbis that won't look. in general,
at women either on principle or because they may not be wearing clothing
to his level of tzniut (there are teshuvot that the posek should look
away from the woman). This again makes the woman feel more
uncomfortable when asking the question.

Eli Turkel

Adina Sherer writes
> 
> Look at the world of complicated, long term illnesses where the 
> family has to deal with complex questions, both medical and 
> logistical/familial, over a long period of time with answers that affect 
> all parts of their lives. Yes, in theory, you want to be able to sit 
> down with your top doctor/specialist and ask him everything and 
> get all the answers you need to feel comfortable with your 
> understanding and ability to handle the situation. But realistically, 
> the doctor probably doesn't have time for a lengthy rambling 
> conversation, and you feel embarrassed/awkward at some of the 
> silly-seeming concerns you have. 

The modern world has created the concept of para-professionals
be it in the medical, legal etc professions. The purpose of these
people is to give help that requires a professional background
but not necessarily the many years of schooling that a professional gets.

Thus, for example, in many places a dentist no longer does cleaning
but gets another (cheaper) person with limited training to do this.
Similarly, the are many para-legal people who perform many of the
straightforward duties of a lawyer.

I know that Rav Lichtenstein strongly opposes 'specialization" in
halakhah, thus he is not happy with yoatzot not because of the
feminist issue but because of the specialization.

Nevertheless, it seems to me that it might not be a bad idea.
Similar, to the secular world there is the "gadol" who knows all areas
of shas. On the other hand their are para-rabbis who specialize.

As a simple example, almost no rabbis today can really answer question
on treifos especially in a slaughter house. Even major poskim have
not seen real questions in many years. Thus, it is a group of rabbis
that specialize in these matters that pasken these questions.
However, even outside of slaughter houses very few rabbis can answer
question about a broken wing in a chicken since today very few people,
especially in the US but meat/poultry without getting packaged goods
with a hashgacha. 
I have seen claims that there are questions even after one buys a
packaged product however, at least in most communities, one does not
go to the rabbi if one notices that the supermarket chicken has some
broken limb.
A more ancient tradition is gittin in which only a few rabbis would
have the expertise to write a get. In the old days it would be the
great gadol who also knew gittin. In the world of para-professionals
we might have a para-rabbi prepare most of the paperwork/procedures
and only the very last step would go to a bet din.

As such, ignoring the feminist issue, there could be para-rabbus who
specialize in nidah questions. Like any paraprofessional he/she would
have to know their limits.

If such a system were in place then I feel that there would be much
fewer objections to yoatzot just as there are not many objections to
women mashgichot of kashrut.
It is clear from Rav Moshe's teshuva on mashgichot that the questioneer
was afraid of the slippery slope. On the other hand Rav Moshe
dismisses these concerns. He says he will worry about women
prime ministers when the question is put to him by someone in power.

Eli Turkel

In the recent discussions on Zionist complicity during the the Holocaust in
the wake of Kastner, Joel Brand, R. Weissmandl, etc., I am posting this
excerpt of an article from last week's Haaretz. 
**************************
Friday, October 8, 1999  
 
Warhaftig's list 

  By Yair Sheleg 
In the early years of World War II, Dr. Zorach Warhaftig , a young leader of
the Mizrahi movement in Poland, succeeded in finding a roundabout way of
getting thousands of Lithuanian yeshiva students out of Europe. He
discovered, however, that it would no easy task to convince his prospective
clients that they needed to flee. Lithuania, in the first year of the war,
still enjoyed the status of an independent neutral country; the heads of
local yeshivas thus believed that it was a safe place for Jews. Beyond this,
they feared that their escape would devastate the yeshivas.The most vehement
opponent to Warhaftig's escape plan was Rabbi Aharon Kotler, who after the
war became one of the leading yeshiva heads in the United States. Kotler
dubbed the transport papers that Warhaftig managed to procure "asher yotzar
paper" (a euphemism for toilet paper named after the prayer recited upon
exiting the bathroom) and urged his students not to use them. Kotler decided
to remain. Eventually, after Verhaftig and his people left for Japan,
Warhaftig succeeded in obtaining exit visas for Kotler and his wife. The
students who heeded his advice, on the other hand, perished.

After intense private talks, Warhaftig finally succeeded in convincing the
heads of the Mir yeshiva to allow their students to use the exit visas, and
they even did so themselves. Consequently, thanks to Warhaftig's effort, the
Mir yeshiva was the only yeshiva saved in its entirety from the Holocaust.

Warhaftig is now 95 years old. He is a former leader of the National
Religious Party (NRP), served as Minister of Religious Affairs for many
years and is one of the only two signers of Israel's Declaration of
Independence who is still living (the other is Meir Vilner)...

During this period, Warhaftig waged a war on two fronts. He fought to find
an escape route for the Jews of Lithuania, on the one hand, and to convince
the yeshiva heads to take advantage of the opportunity, on the other. In the
film, he sums up his arguments with the yeshiva heads in one harsh
statement. "They wanted to save the yeshivot and I wanted to save the
yeshiva students." Is he still angry today at the position they took, which
caused many of their students to remain behind and lose their only
opportunity to save themselves? Warhaftig chooses his words cautiously.

"Many people, not only the yeshiva heads, still believed then that Lithuania
was the safest place to be in Europe, because of the fact that it was
independent and neutral. I did not believe that such a tiny country could
hold out as an independent country, lodged between two giants such as
Germany and the Soviet Union. I, unlike the others, actually read 'Mein
Kampf' back in 1938 and I believed there would be a Holocaust of the Jewish
people." Just the same, he admits, "Yes, I am angry at Rabbi Kotler who told
his students not to take my papers.'"

And why did he himself act only to save yeshiva students and not ordinary
Jews? "I went from one person to another, from one group of people to
another, not only to the rabbis in the yeshivot, and I said: 'Save
yourselves!' It was easier to organize the yeshiva people because it
involved a few hundred people for whom the order of one person was enough to
get them moving. Although, it is only natural, as one who studied in a
yeshiva in his youth, for me to have had an affinity for this world."
************************
Not exactly what you would find in Yated Neeman. And I would not call Zerah
Warhaftig pasul le'edut by any means. 

Arnie Lustiger

Russel Hendel wrote:
>>When I was a teenager my grandmother had several
>>talks with me about these topics (So did my mother)

Sort of on this subject, just yesterday morning I was at a
chaburah given by a well respected talmid chochom who spends 
MUCH time dealing with people's problems. He believes (based
on evidence which I assume is anecdotal) that prior to the
 B"Y movement, when a girl's chinuch was at home from a 
mother/grandmother, there was a much better chinuch (for
lack of a better word) in all matters bain ish l'ishto.

Kol tuv
Sender Baruch

> Rabbi Bechhofer has specified some of the risks and pitfalls which make
> him worry about the reselt which will come of these new developments. I
> will respond to them individually.
>
> <<< 1. Further rift and rupture between our community and the RW. >>>


    I'm curious about one thing, was R. Svei (of the RW) of Philledelphia
afraid of a rift when he called R. Lamm (of the MO group), the president of
YU a soneh HaShem?  Was Agudas Yisrael afraind of a rift with MO when it, as
an organization, refused to repudiate that slur (whch incidently was made as
a keynote address at the Agudah convention)?  If the RW doesn't care about
causing rifts within Orthodoxy by use of slander, insults, deprecation and
even half-truths and mis-truths, why should MO be overly concerned?  If
"Gedolei Yisrael" see fit to resort to such behaviour, what lessons should
th laity learn from them?

Firstly, two wrongs don't make a right.

Secondly, R' Svei does not represent the RW. That is the advantage of
collective leadership. There are many more Gedolim on the RW that would not
say what R' Svei said.

To be honest, however, I was not referring to the Agudah (that, in EY
essentially no longer exists) at all - but rather - to the Gedolei Ha'Poskim
and the Rank and File on the Right. It is not correct, and I have, to the
best of my knowledge here never done so, to take a political organization
and identify it with the people it is alleged to represent - both on the
Right and on the Left.

BTW, there are, of course, Gedolei Torah on the "Left" or associated with
it. If R' Aharon Lichtenstein, R' Avraham Shapira, R' Aharon Soloveitchik or
someone else of that stature has said something to endorse this new
development, by all means please let us know. So far all we have is RET
telling us that RAL was opposed "for different reasons".

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: Yoatzot - Cause for Trepidation


>
> > Rabbi Bechhofer has specified some of the risks and pitfalls which make
> > him worry about the reselt which will come of these new developments. I
> > will respond to them individually.
> >
> > <<< 1. Further rift and rupture between our community and the RW. >>>
>
>
>     I'm curious about one thing, was R. Svei (of the RW) of Philledelphia
> afraid of a rift when he called R. Lamm (of the MO group), the president
of
> YU a soneh HaShem?  Was Agudas Yisrael afraind of a rift with MO when it,
as
> an organization, refused to repudiate that slur (whch incidently was made
as
> a keynote address at the Agudah convention)?  If the RW doesn't care about
> causing rifts within Orthodoxy by use of slander, insults, deprecation and
> even half-truths and mis-truths, why should MO be overly concerned?  If
> "Gedolei Yisrael" see fit to resort to such behaviour, what lessons should
> th laity learn from them?
>
>
>
>
>
>

Someone asked about this last week - this was all I could find on the net

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich



Rabbis excommunicate Rabin assassin 

    JERUSALEM (Reuters) - More than 50 Israeli rabbis have signed a manifesto 
excommunicating Yigal Amir, the right-wing Jew who assassinated Prime 
Minister Yitzhak Rabin, one of the clergymen said on Thursday. 
    The ritual ruling, which bars Jews from visiting Amir in prison, talking 
with him or writing to him, was issued ahead of the fourth anniversary of the 
November 4, 1995, killing. Prison personnel and Amir's family are exempt from 
the ban. 
    "Fifty-four (rabbis) have signed. I have no doubt that many, many more 
identify with their comments, and say as much amongst themselves," Rabbi 
Benjamin Lau, one of the signatories, told Army Radio. 
    "This is a statement on religious Jewish law, a moral statement, an 
educational statement," he said about the ruling, likely to be followed only 
by Jews who adhere to the teachings of the rabbis who signed it. 
    Those who signed included rabbis from five Jewish settlements in the 
occupied West Bank, Israel's Ha'aretz newspaper reported. Settlers were among 
the strongest opponents of Rabin's peace moves with the Palestinians. 
    Rabbi Naftali Rothenberg of the Har Adar settlement, who initiated the 
drive, was quoted in Ha'aretz as saying it was the first time rabbis had 
signed such a manifesto focusing on what he termed values of democracy and 
Jewish unity. 
    "We express deep shock and disgust at the impertinent attempt to present 
such a heinous murder as if it were done in the name of the Torah (Bible) and 
in the service of the people and land of Israel," the manifesto said. 
    Amir, sentenced to life imprisonment, said at his trial that ritual law 
justified his assassination of Rabin, a leader he branded as a traitor to the 
Jewish people. 
    The ban will remain in force until Amir, an Orthodox Jew, expresses 
regret for the killing. 
    

In light of Shlomo B. Abeles post in V4#44, I want to state once again that I
misinterpreted Micha's remark on this subject, misconstruing it as a comparison rather than a
contrast.  I hope this will dispell any remnant of the impression I created about an
anti-Chabad bias on
Micha's part.

 Russell J Hendel wrote

" If Shoshana can speak
about her practices of talking to MOTHER and ML I
should bring in my experiences.

When I was a teenager my grandmother had several
talks with me about these topics (So did my mother)

My grandmother made it clear to me that she spoke
to all her daughter in laws. My grandmother was
proud that "All my grandchildren are KOsher".
(IN passing my grandmother was very active
in supporting the community mikveh).

My mother on occasion spoke to me about
Mikveh. For example she once made a comment
that women were too gossipy in a certain mikveh
and she therefore started going elsewhere.

In short I was brought up(even though I am a man) in
an envirnoment where people spoke about these
things and their importance.

I did not comment till now both because of my
gender and also because it is wrong to tell the other
married people on this group who are discussing this
how they should have been brought up. But since
shoshana brought up the subject
of talking about it I thought I would tell you the
experiences of a man.

Russell"

     I want to third this motion.  Being recently married I have been perplexed
by the situation discussed on this list of the lack of openess on this issue-
but then I realized that being that my mother & my wife's are mikva ladies (hers
full time mine part) we grew up, B"H, with a different view of this whole issue.
Maybe a separate issue is how to get people to understand that this is Halacha &
that there should be no embarrassment in asking a question.  Is there a way to
do this?


Moshe

Akiva Miller wrote:


> I think men have no idea how sensitive women are to these sort of issues.
> We are not talking just about questions like, "Can we do such-and-such
> while nidah?", or "Does such-and-such constitute a Veses Kavua". We mean
> things like, "I'm bleeding, and here look at this, I wiped up my insides,
> tell me if I'm tamay." Few women are willing to go directly to the rav
> with such a cloth, and even sending it to the rav via her husband is very
> embarrassing. How can she let herself be seen now that he has seen that
> cloth?
> 


Here in Baltimore, we have a Rav whom everyone knows is an expert in
these things, and my wife, at least (I haven't really asked around) feels
no embarrasment about calling him. They've never met in person. If need
be, she puts her cloth in an envelope with her name and phone number on it
in the *other* mailslot in his front door.

Why is that embarrasing in any way?


---sam

From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
 
> > RYGB writes:
> > This first condition is the kind of attitude that groups like Edah are
> > trying to erase.  It is time for MO to stop looking over their right
> > shoulders.  If there are cultural problems within Orthodoxy, and
> > Halacha gives us a solution, we must undertake to use these solutions
> > without worrying about what the RW (if not RRW) will say.
 
> I have spoken to R' Saul Berman about this. He vehemently denied that he
> agrees with the position you have attributed to him. He was adamant that he
> and Edah have the utmost respect and awe for the Gedolei Yisroel that are,
> for now at least, affiliated, for better or for worse, with the RW. You may
> think I am misquoting him. I invite you to contact him and check it out. As
> such, the rest of your post, I am afraid, is not relevant.

For better or worse, that is the impression that my wife and mother came away
with after the Edah conference last winter.  Respect does not equal kowtowing.

Plenty of people put up eruvin in cities while directly addressing, or
explicitly explaining why they do not agree with, the various provisions
in Reb Moshe's teshuvot against erecting eruvin in New York and Brooklyn.
That is respect with disagreement.  What you demand is respect with fear
and abrogation of one's will.  While that may go in the Chasidic world,
it does not go in all of the Torah world.  "Make His will your will", not
"make the RWs will your will."

In Avodah 4#43, CBrown wrote:
> Avraham was 48 at the time of the Dor Hapalagah (Seder Olam) and acc. to
one opnion
in B"R he was 48 when he had hakarat haBoreih. <
Tangentially, Noach was also alive at that time (again, as per Seder Olam),
yet the Dor Hapalagah went ahead with their plans; as implied by Rabbi
A.Kahn in last week's Mi-Oray Ha-Aish d'var Torah, their both living at
that time gives new meaning to the second, "lo hayah nechshav lik'lum"
opinion re "tomim hayah b'dorosav."

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

In Avodah 4#43, JJBaker replied:
> So I'm generalizing from my own situation.  So sue me. <
Litigious I'm not; OTOH, I am noting that "It is widely known" != "my own
situation" (nonwithstanding your subsequent e-mail message rephrasing the
original "it is widely
known that women *don't* ask the rav for situations that should be
questioned" statement as "it is widely known that there is a 'crisis' in
ThM psak (or lack thereof)").
> And will she and/or her husband know what all the relevant details *are*
ahead of time?  What if the rabbi asks for clarification? <
And does an intermediary know all the answers ahead of time when asking
*non-THM* questions of the given posaik?  AFAIK, clarification of the
truth, which may require an additional "session" with the posaik, is *part*
of the system, not a fault in it.

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

In Avodah4#44, SBoublil wrote:
> I (and others I know) send the kallah, prior to marriage, to two people
to discuss the most
intimate of matters:  specific minhagim related to niddah and tevila:  her
mother and to
her future mil. <
Now *that's* a procedure worthy of emulation (esp. if it allows the kallah
and the MIL to become generally more comfortable with each other) -- I'd
love to hear if anyone disagrees and why.

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

In Avodah 4#46, RJHendel replied:
> (Otherwise
a supermarket could find upon audit that only non jews
were making restitution) <
Just curious: how would they find that out?  I don't recall my ShopRite
Price+ Card listing my beliefs :-).

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

No one has accused me of arson...perhaps the gasoline evaporated before the
match arrived :-).  Here's a 2nd try...and I'll break it down into two
questions (marked "Q1" and "Q2") for ease of reference in a reply (with the
gasoline coming from Q1):

"In order to meticulously observe the Halakha, women need women!"
Comments, please.  Dense male that I am, and granting that none of us, men
or wormen, can observe Halacha (to any reasonable degree, much less
meticulously) in a vacuum (i.e. sans the presence of a community of
like-minded individuals), [Q1] why does a given woman need another/other
women (as opposed to a mixed-gender community) in order to observe Halacha
(to any reasonable degree, much less meticulously)?  The words that follow
in Rebbetzin Henkin's article imply that women cannot "meticulously observe
the Halacha" under current circumstances -- if that is really true (and I
see this as a big, unsubstantiated "if"), [Q2] is her program, whatever its
primary reason for existence, the best (given Halachah, benefits, risks,
etc.) way to reverse the situation?

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

In a message dated 10/18/99 11:13:56 AM EST, MPoppers@kayescholer.com writes:

> Tangentially, Noach was also alive at that time (again, as per Seder Olam),
>  yet the Dor Hapalagah went ahead with their plans; as implied by Rabbi
>  A.Kahn in last week's Mi-Oray Ha-Aish d'var Torah, their both living at
>  that time gives new meaning to the second, "lo hayah nechshav lik'lum"
>  opinion re "tomim hayah b'dorosav."
>  
See Ravad & Kesef Mishne Hil. Avodoh Zarah 1:3.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

----- Original Message -----
From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Yoatzot - Cause for Trepidation


> Firstly, two wrongs don't make a right.

    I'm not reffering to who's right and wrong.  I'm merely pointing out
that the RW ( those who claim to seek to always act lifnim meshurat hadin)
seems not to care about a rift.  Perhaps MO should learn by example.

>
> Secondly, R' Svei does not represent the RW. That is the advantage of
> collective leadership. There are many more Gedolim on the RW that would
not
> say what R' Svei said.

    And none as far as I know who openly disagreed.  While it may not be
technically on point, "Shtikah Kehoda'ah" comes to mind.

>
> To be honest, however, I was not referring to the Agudah (that, in EY
> essentially no longer exists) at all - but rather - to the Gedolei
Ha'Poskim
> and the Rank and File on the Right. It is not correct, and I have, to the
> best of my knowledge here never done so, to take a political organization
> and identify it with the people it is alleged to represent - both on the
> Right and on the Left.

    Is there really a choice.  If the Agudah does not really reflect the
feelings of it's laity, why then do they continue to pay mmebersip to it?
If the ba'alei batim don't like the schul, they should leave.  By staying,
they ratify what occurs.

>
> BTW, there are, of course, Gedolei Torah on the "Left" or associated with
> it. If R' Aharon Lichtenstein, R' Avraham Shapira, R' Aharon Soloveitchik
or
> someone else of that stature has said something to endorse this new
> development, by all means please let us know.

    Have any of the above named come out publicaly against the idea?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
> Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 8:37 AM
> Subject: Re: Yoatzot - Cause for Trepidation
>
>
> >
> > > Rabbi Bechhofer has specified some of the risks and pitfalls which
make
> > > him worry about the reselt which will come of these new developments.
I
> > > will respond to them individually.
> > >
> > > <<< 1. Further rift and rupture between our community and the RW. >>>
> >
> >
> >     I'm curious about one thing, was R. Svei (of the RW) of
Philledelphia
> > afraid of a rift when he called R. Lamm (of the MO group), the president
> of
> > YU a soneh HaShem?  Was Agudas Yisrael afraind of a rift with MO when
it,
> as
> > an organization, refused to repudiate that slur (whch incidently was
made
> as
> > a keynote address at the Agudah convention)?  If the RW doesn't care
about
> > causing rifts within Orthodoxy by use of slander, insults, deprecation
and
> > even half-truths and mis-truths, why should MO be overly concerned?  If
> > "Gedolei Yisrael" see fit to resort to such behaviour, what lessons
should
> > th laity learn from them?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

********************


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