Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 046

Sunday, October 17 1999

• Abrahams age when he recognized the Creator
• Talking to your Mother and MotherinLaw about Niddah
• Checking Scanners
• RYGB's list of 5 concerns
• Use of Malay/Chaser in Secular Literature
• Yerushalmi
• NCSY
• digesting recent material...
• Re: digesting recent material...
• Re: Chabad + Driving on Shabbos
• Yoatzot and RW: Must we Tremble Before Them?
• Sociological Judaism
• Re: Yoatzot and RW: Must we Tremble Before Them?
• Re: Yoatzot - Cause for Trepidation

Chaiim
(Haven't heard from you in  a while)

I heard a shiur from the Rav on this. It is a controversy...one shittah
says
he was 3 years old while the other says he was 48.

The Rav noted how peculiar it was that Abraham's life starts in Lech
Lecah
at 75. To quote the Rav
>I would have wanted to know how he grew up...how he found out about
>God etc

Russell
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 If Shoshana can speak
about her practices of talking to MOTHER and ML I
should bring in my experiences.

When I was a teenager my grandmother had several 
talks with me about these topics (So did my mother)

My grandmother made it clear to me that she spoke
to all her daughter in laws. My grandmother was 
proud that "All my grandchildren are KOsher".
(IN passing my grandmother was very active
in supporting the community mikveh).

My mother on occasion spoke to me about
Mikveh. For example she once made a comment 
that women were too gossipy in a certain mikveh
and she therefore started going elsewhere.

In short I was brought up(even though I am a man) in
an envirnoment where people spoke about these 
things and their importance.

I did not comment till now both because of my
gender and also because it is wrong to tell the other
married people on this group who are discussing this
how they should have been brought up. But since
shoshana brought up the subject
of talking about it I thought I would tell you the
experiences of a man.

Russell
 
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The following halacoth might be relevant

1) The rambam in hilcoth mechira (some place in the teens)
makes it clear that ERROR in computation does
---not invalidate the sale
---must be restored even after several years
---the obligation to return the error cannot be nullified 
even if there is agreement (with kinyan) that the two parties
have closed the deal.

2) Although there is a rambam in Theft and Loss (Chap 11?)
that the LOSS of a non jew is permitted and hence mistakes
in computation, nevertheless the Rambam introduces the 
idea of an issur derabbanan if their is potential for Chillul
hashem.

So my opinion is that since 
A) these errors are auditable the 
same law should apply to jew and non jew (but it is 
biblical to the jew and rabbinic to the non jew). (Otherwise
a supermarket could find upon audit that only non jews
were making restitution)

B) My opinion is also that as long as the supermarket is
selling things at the same price you can come back with
a receipt and show them the scanning was wrong and either
pay them or get your money back.

C) In light of the above laws, if a buyer (or cashier) does
NOT bother checking receipts there is an implicit 
mechila (which however can be undone by examining
receipts later)

I believe that most stores have a policy of giving you the
lesser of the scanned price and actual price (That applies
to newly priced items that are now scanning for less)

(In passing an experienced Cashier can mentally check
prices as they are being scanned without loss of time)

Russell
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I again vigorously protest the lack of mention of Talmud 
Torah and Saving Marriages in this list of 5.

1. Further rift and rupture between our community and the RW.
2. Diminshed involvement of men as the cost of increased involvement of
women.
3. Possible Shalom Bayis problems when the wife consults a yo'etzes and
the
husband a Rav.
4. Harmful effects on the delicate fabric of society in Am Yisroel in
changes to expectations within sociological and educational systems.
5. A potentially dangerous sled ride down the slippery slope to de facto
women rabbis.


I however would be happy to sign it if it included #6 and #7

>>Despite the above 5 concerns we feel the following benefits 
>>offset them

6. The increased learning that would take place in an area that
is neglected


With regard to Moshes statement


>>>

In general, when I debate with those to the left of me, I emphasize
the risks, and when I debate with those to the right of me, I
emphasize the benefits.
>>>

I think a public signed statement SHOULD INCLUDE both
sides

Russell

7. The increased Shalom Bayis and saving of marriages due to
the availability of people to talk to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Russell
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"Cute but false" is how I felt when 
reading Rabbi Bs comments

>>But you wouldn't infer anything from deficient spellings 
>>in Agnon

>>You woulnd't infer anything from deficient spellings in
>>Rishonim

>>But you would infer from use of Piel in Rishonim


That is simply not true. All literature employs many
techniques to give inuendos. Allow me to give
3-4 examples

1) (Reprinted from HebLang). When I was in
High School we had a slender principle and
students called him the Jap. One day when
we had an assembly for elections one of
the candidates made a comment that

>>The high school administration has
>>not given the students enough freedom
>>and has seriously JAPoerdized student
>>efforts

Everyone broke out laughing. After the
speech the Principle spoke and told us
how important elections were and concluded
that

>>I am happy that students are expressing
>>their opinions openly and freely without
>>hesitation (At this everyone got up and
>>applauded him)

At any rate...this is a good secular example
of use of SPELLING to create atmosphere.

2) The only reason I can't give you examples
in Agnon is because I don't read him(I spend 
less time reading secular material than most
Charedi people I know).

3) In passing how would you know if
a rishon used the PIel (except present).
Rishonim don't use dots.


4) Rabbi B misses my whole statistical point
about PIEL vs DEFICIENT / FULL. The
statistical evidence for the PIEL is often
on the same par as the statistical evidence
for FULL/DEFICIENT. Rabbi B believes
in PIEL because someone told him about
it. If someone had told himabout DEFICIENT
FULL then he would believe in it also. As
to comments of Agnon and rishonim..
if I have the original manuscript and they
used DEFICIENT/FULL and I can back up
the consistency of their usage why shouldn't
I apply the rule.

5) To make it clear...we don't just believe
in FULL/DEFICIENT. We observe 
statistical anomalies. For example as
Rav Hirsch notes, it can't be a coincidence
that all TLDOTH are spelled the same
except for two times

---TOLDOTH of Mashiach (end of ruth)
which is spelled FULL FULL

---Toldoth of YIsmael (or Esauv?) in
Brayshit whichis spelled DEFICIENT
DEFICIENT.

This association certainly can't be
a coincidence. Many of the famous
Rashis on Malay-chaser begin with
the obersvation that >this is
the only time it is spelled this way<

I could go on..but the point I am
making is clear. WE believe in FULL
DEFIICENT for the same reason we
believe in the PIEL...statistical 
coincidences of SPELLING & MEANING

Russell  
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Rabbi B asks why I haven't answered him on the 
Yerushalmi yet.

Actually the discussion on DEFIICENT / FULL
was an offgrowth of it.

I also answered the Bavli (Use of ELEH to 
establish the # of mlacoth on shabbath is
clearly an athmachtah).

I will probably get to it ths shabbath (Last
shabbath I had a special shiur to prepar and
the shabbath before I had to lain someplace
extra)

Russell
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--- mluchins@Zweig-Dimenna.com wrote:
> 
> 
>      As the son of NCSY's unofficial historian I
> wade into this conversation
> carefully.  NCSY is a huge organization which does
> both chizuk krovim & kiruv
> rechokim.  That said some people involved in NCSY
> see it as a kiruv organization
> others as a Synagogue service.   In places like
> Upstate NY & Omaha, Nebraska
> NCSY is mostly made up of PS students.  Even in
> Jewish centers PS NCSYers still
> exist.  NY has 1,000-2,000 P.S. students in PS
> clubs, and NJ has a separate PS
> program ("region").  The NCSY Yarchei kallah for PS
> students is amazing, and
> over 300 PS students were on NCSY summer programs
> this past summer.
> 
>      True the yeshiva  background of the majority of
> NCSYers has changed from
> the 60's when most members were in P.S.  (Miami was
> an exception - but even
> there the alum from there who is now a world renown
> rav was first in PS, and
> then in Mesivta.), but many of the NCSYers were even
> then from Shomer Shabbos
> homes.  The same type of families now send there
> children B"H, predominately, to
> yeshiva high schools- and NCSY continues to service
> them.  NCSY is part of the
> OU, and provides a service to its member schuls. 
> One might say NCSY hasn't
> changed as much as the world it serves has changed.
> 
> 
> Moshe Luchins


I feel impelled to give my take on what I beleive to
be the one of the finest kiruv organizations in
America. I used to think that NCSY was just an
organization of MOdern Orthodox synogouges that was a
stopgap, a sort of last hope for those people in small
communiteis whose children went to public school.  As
such I didn't have much regard for it because I
believed that it wasn't working... that is,  that all
so called orthodox parents who were sending their kids
to NCSY were not successful in keeping their kids
frum.  This was in the fifties and sixties, when I was
a teenager growing up in Toledo, Ohio and watched many
of friends go to organizations like NCSY and not
really caring about their Judaism.  In almost all
cases they were interersted in the social scene that
NCSY provided and then they would go off to college
and have nothing to do with authntic Judaism. 

That was then.

Fast forward to the nineties and A. Y. Weinberg,
regional director of NCSY Midwest.  I was invited to
attend an event back in the early part of this decade
and was duly impressed at what I saw: Public school
kids virtually begging for Yahadus.  Through the
collaborative effort of Rabbi Weinberg and staff,
Rabbi Naftali Kalter, Kiruv minded Balei Battim, and
most importantly, dedicated advisor/volunteers, an
atmosphere was created where being frum was cool. And
every kid wanted to be involved. The result is nothing
less than phenomenal.  Many kids swithched to yeshiva
high schools or girls schools or academy(mixed) type
schools, often at great personal sacrifice. Many who
could not(because of tremendous parental opposition)
switch to a yeshiva, remained at public school wearing
Kipot(boys) and establishing a permanent daily mincha
minyan at the school. Some of these kids went on to a
Yeshiva Gedolah such as Telshe or WITS.  Many went on
to Isreaeli kiruv type yeshivos that cater to this
tyope of student of little or no background only to
return and be totally mainstreamed in to the orthodox
jewish community. 

I have had many NCSYers over for shabbos over the last
few years due to my daughters' involvement as advisors
and have been inspired  with their sincerity and
devotion.  

A very nice fringe benefit for me was that my oldest
daughter met her husband at NCSY.  Both are dedicated 
and are flown in from New York (where they live) to
attend all Midwest NCSY events so I get to see them
pretty often.

I would, therefore, like to encourage anyone with
connections to NCSY National leadership to redirect
ALL resources to Kiruv, following the very successful
model created by A. Y. Weinberg.

HM

=====

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First of all, a big yasher koach and thank you to Adina Sherer for her
thoughtful and on-target post!  Let's hear more from you!

Then, RYGB asks:

> This is kind of what I am looking for is kind of the following declaration:
> 
> "We, the MO leadership, have undertaken this new venture well aware of the
> following risks and pitfalls:
> 
> 1. Further rift and rupture between our community and the RW.
> 2. Diminshed involvement of men as the cost of increased involvement of
> women.
> 3. Possible Shalom Bayis problems when the wife consults a yo'etzes and the
> husband a Rav.
> 4. Harmful effects on the delicate fabric of society in Am Yisroel in
> changes to expectations within sociological and educational systems.
> 5. A potentially dangerous sled ride down the slippery slope to de facto
> women rabbis.
> 
> We may, indeed, five or more years hence, regret this move. Nevertheless,
> our concerns for THM non-observance and problems within our community have
> impelled us to take this step, which we consider and hope will be a step
> towards enhanced Avodas Hashem. So, with trepidation and concern, we
> nonetheless have concluded that this will be a positive step forward for our
> community and pray that our decision prove correct.
> 
> Signed:
> 
> (I hope those on the other side of the debate here might see fit to "sign"
> this statement.)

And would RYGB also be willing to sign it?

Re:

> 1. Further rift and rupture between our community and the RW.

If you feel that you always have to look over your right shoulder,
eventually either your head will get screwed off or you will be going
around in circles!  :-)  Seriously, at some point one has to stop doing
that and deal with the issues themselves, as they affect YOUR community.

> 2. Diminshed involvement of men as the cost of increased involvement
> of women.

IMHO, if an activity loses value in they eyes of men as women become
interested in it, there is a question about either the men's attitudes
toward themselves vis-a-vis women, or about their attitude toward the
activity itself.  (Hmmm, perhaps if all those football widows took up an
interest in football, the men would drop it!)

> 3. Possible Shalom Bayis problems when the wife consults a yo'etzes
> and the husband a Rav.

What about when the wife trusts Rav A and the husband trusts Rav B?

> 5. A potentially dangerous sled ride down the slippery slope to de facto
> women rabbis.

Is that REALLY so terrible?  
(Okay, scratch that one, no point wasting bandwidth on that on this list.)

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu

In a message dated 10/17/99 5:14:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
fbb6@columbia.edu writes:

> What about when the wife trusts Rav A and the husband trusts Rav B?

Halacha deals with this, BTW would a Poseket get the status of Asrei Dmar 
(and/or vs. the Posek)?

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

--- david.nadoff@bfkpn.com wrote:

> The anti-Chabad animus that tends to crop up on this
> list is incredible. How can
> you even think to equate the Conservative and Chabad
> shitos regarding driving on
> Shabbos?

 I don't believe that this was the case here.  I
strongly believe that our list owner bends over
backwards to be fair to Chabad.

As for the point:

 that shluchay Chabad
> always offer the option
> of accomodations for the whole Shabbos to anyone
> they invite for a Shabbos
> visit who might drive, although they do not
> condition the invitation on making
> it
> a full Shabbos visit.

This is very likely the case.  It was my own
experience that I had to invite a woman who was not
shomer shabbos to a pesach seder several years ago. 
Knowing that she would drive I got into a major
argument with my brother's family (whom I had
originally invited and who asked me if she could
come). I thought that since she was definately going
to drive to my house and back home that it would be
assur for me to machshil her.  As a last resort I
asked a shailo to Rabbi Dovid Zucker of Chicago's
Lakewood Community Kollel and he unhesitatingly said
it was not a problem.  As long as I was not telling
her to drive, it was OK to invite her.  I didn't even
have to offer up accomodations for her.  That answer
surprised me but it sure resolvwed the issue with my
brother's family and we all had a very nice seder that
year.

HM

=====

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RYGB writes: 
> This is kind of what I am looking for is kind of the following declaration:
 
> "We, the MO leadership, have undertaken this new venture well aware of the
> following risks and pitfalls:
 
> 1. Further rift and rupture between our community and the RW.

(Other conditions deleted for space, since it is fairly clear that
the MO leadership on this list and elsewhere feels that they are less
than relevant to the issue)

This first condition is the kind of attitude that groups like Edah are
trying to erase.  It is time for MO to stop looking over their right
shoulders.  If there are cultural problems within Orthodoxy, and
Halacha gives us a solution, we must undertake to use these solutions
without worrying about what the RW (if not RRW) will say.

It should be fairly clear by now that whatever innovations are made or
not made by MO, the RW will find fault and will attack it, be it RZ
or OF or yoatzot or outreach or 4-foot mechitzot or whatever.  By making
"not letting the RW attack us" be a primary goal, it effectively says
"MO has no authority to define MO".  We have seen the problems of defining
one's Judaism by Holocaust memorials - by Hitler's definition of what
Judaism is or was.  Self-definition is empowering, letting others define
one is demeaning.  Do the moderns stand for Torah, or do they stand for
fear of what the RW will say?

RYGB may want the moderns to tremble before the RW, and the moderns
may have their problems, but they will not be solved by announcing to
one and all that MO cannot stand on its own without the approval (which
will never come) of the RW.

So here, there were two problems, 1) that more and more women are 
learning more and more Torah, and want to be able to share it, and 
2) that far fewer women ask shailas about ThM than there should be.
Rabbanit Henkin, looking to the sources, found that women as morot
horaa was an acceptable solution, according to the Chida and the 
Chinuch, and with her institution, with its rabbanim tied into the
charedi world, produced yoatzot as a solution.  Now that the yoatzot
exist, the RW attacks them.  I wonder if the opposition will evaporate
when charedi women start going to the yoatzot.

As for the objection that problems will happen when the yoetzet
disagrees with the husband's rav - if the husband and wife can't
work that out, there's more wrong with their marriage than mistimed
tevilah.  I know families where one spouse is Orthodox and the other
Conservative, and yet they get along just fine, even with ThM.

--- MSDratch@aol.com wrote:
 
> Another issue that is being ignores, and as a proud
> MO it grieves me to 
> discuss it publicly, many of our women are not going
> to the mikvah (some go 
> before they want to become pregnant, afraid of a
> pgam, others not at all.)  
> This is true in many cities and (challilah, I do not
> want to be chosheid 
> bich-sheirim or motzi la'az) possibly across the
> religious spectrum. 

This rather sad and shocking (although not
surprising)statement leads me to ask the following
sociological questions: 

To what extent does Klal Israel follow Halacha as a
true form of Avodas Hashem.  Are there Jews who follow
Halacha for social reasons, as a means of being
accepted within their own peer group? Are these Jews
only frum where it shows?  Does then a lifetime of
mitzva observance in these cases boil down to just
wanting to live in harmony with one's peers? Is this a
good thing (i.e., better than nothing) or a bad thing
(worse than nothing) And what is the ultimate
Judgement of such non L'Shma Jews? And what are the
numbers?  i.e. what percentage of Jews are L"Shma
totally vs. not L'shma at all?  Is it possible to be
partly L'Shma and partly sociological Jews. How does
this affect child rearing?  What are the percentages
of sociological Jews' children who remain frum?

Just some random thoughts.

HM

=====

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----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan J. Baker <jjbaker@panix.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 1999 6:33 PM
Subject: Yoatzot and RW: Must we Tremble Before Them?


> RYGB writes:
> This first condition is the kind of attitude that groups like Edah are
> trying to erase.  It is time for MO to stop looking over their right
> shoulders.  If there are cultural problems within Orthodoxy, and
> Halacha gives us a solution, we must undertake to use these solutions
> without worrying about what the RW (if not RRW) will say.
>

I have spoken to R' Saul Berman about this. He vehemently denied that he
agrees with the position you have attributed to him. He was adamant that he
and Edah have the utmost respect and awe for the Gedolei Yisroel that are,
for now at least, affiliated, for better or for worse, with the RW. You may
think I am misquoting him. I invite you to contact him and check it out. As
such, the rest of your post, I am afraid, is not relevant.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

Rabbi Bechhofer has specified some of the risks and pitfalls which make
him worry about the reselt which will come of these new developments. I
will respond to them individually.

<<< 1. Further rift and rupture between our community and the RW. >>>

[The context of his remarks show that the word "our" must be understood
as "MO".] Some MO schools teach girls gemara, and I presume there are
others which don't even though they'd like to. As I see it, each group
goes its own way, judging the relative benefits and risks of each case.
Is there any issue which one community unanimously agreed to hold back
on, for fear of alienating another, the way you would like to see these
yoatzot held back on?

<<< 2. Diminshed involvement of men as the cost of increased involvement
of women. >>>

I still haven't seen any explanation why this is a bad thing.

<<< 3. Possible Shalom Bayis problems when the wife consults a yo'etzes
and the husband a Rav. >>>

This has nothing to do with the yoatzot. It is a direct result of the
relationship between the wife and husband. Why are they both going,
instead of choosing one person between them? Actually, this situation has
existed for a long time, when the kallah learns one thing at her classes.
and the choson learns something different at his classes.

<<< 4. Harmful effects on the delicate fabric of society in Am Yisroel in
changes to expectations within sociological and educational systems. >>>

With all due respect, this is so vague that I have no idea what you mean.
It sounds a bit like #1.

<<< 5. A potentially dangerous sled ride down the slippery slope to de
facto women rabbis. >>>

I see no slippery slope. There is a clear line here. Women *are* allowed
to teach Torah and decide questions of halacha. Women are *not* allowed
to be the chazan, the baal kriah, or a witness. If you're worried about a
woman giving a Dvar Torah from the pulpit on Shabbos morning, from what I
hear, we've long since passed that part of the "slope".

Akiva Miller

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