Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 044

Sunday, October 17 1999

• RE: HAY In Middle of Word
• What is Grammar
• Self Delusion---YOATZOTH=Orthodoxy and Feminism
• RE: Flexibility of Girls vs Inflexibility of Boys
• Rabbi B vs RRJHendel---From the Light Side
• Vatikin
• RE: Males/Females learning Shas
• Response to MB on DEFICIENT|FULL
• Was Re: Flexibility of Girls vs Inflexibility of Boys, Now "Gammar"
• Chabad + Driving on Shabbos
• Re: Avodah V4 #42
• Re: Avodah V4 #40
• RE: Avodah V4 #43
• RE: Avodah V4 #43
• Re: Yoatzot
• Ketamim

Rabbi Elazar Teitz writes about a HAY in the middle of a word that

>the t'nuah is an indication to pronounce the heh. When there is no
>t'nuah, it is not pronounced if there is no sh'va (e.g., P'du[h]tzur),
>and is pronounced if there is a sh'va (e.g., k'mahpechath).

I am not a 100% sure about this. I was under the impression that
the HAY is NEVER pronounced.

As to why certain words have a SHVA and other dont I understood
that 
>>>The HAY of MAH PAY CAT is punctuated because IT IS A ROOT LETTER
>>>The HAY of PDHAL is punctuated so that we should know how to 
separate the syllables PDH AL vs PD HAL.

I was sure I saw this someplace but the MINCAT SHAY is silent. Perhaps
someone else has a clear source (I will continue looking)

Russell
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Rabbi B writes

>Nope. I disagree. These Rashis are not based on grammar at all. They are
>based purely on the significance of the spelling chaser or maleh.

But that is what grammar is. If I take some spelling (eg the Chirik of
the Piel)
and show that the meaning is usually an INTENSE form of the verb than
I have a grammatical rule
	>CHIRIK = PIEL = INTENSITY

Similary if I take all DEFICIENTLY spelled words and see that their is
DEFICIENCY in meaning then we have a grammatical rule
	>DEFIICENT SPELLING = CHASER = DEFICIENCY IN MEANING

Here is my latest up to date list of DEFICIENT/FULL Midrashim
	>EPHRON was a deficient person (not all there ) (EPHRON)
	>Rivkahs twins had a deficient person (Esauv)(TOMIM)
	>Not all walls are needed in the succah(SUCCAH)
	>Not all people conquer (VCVSHUA)
	>Not all generations need a sign to save them from the flood
	(DROTH)

That is what a rule is: An association of SPELLING with MEANING.

The above is pure grammar

Russell
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Eli Clark writes

>But I think that we can, on this list
>at least, be honest, and admit that we must evaluate the yo'atzot
>program in the broader context of Orthodoxy and feminism.  Any other
>approach, in my view, is myopic and self-deluding.	

Really---how about the view that YOATZOTH is an issue in
making women more learned in taharat mishpachah and preserving
marriages (Even Rabbi B agrees with me on that).

Is saving marriages and increasing learning DELUSION? Well then
I am deluded (So is Rabbi B and we are both happy about it).

As I stated once...the real issue here is saving marriages and increasing
knowledge. Any other perspective is SECONDARY and should not
be brought in

Russell
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Akiva Miller writes
On Sun, 10 Oct 1999, Kenneth G Miller wrote:

> Maybe the reason is that the "boys" are locked into a system which says
> that if one can demonstrate proficiency in Taaruvos and a few other
> selected portions of Yoreh Deah, then they can be certified as capable
> to service all the needs of a Jewish community. In contrast, the
"girls"
> are building their system from scratch, and are able to build it in a
> way which will meet the needs of the current generation, rather than
> running on the inertia of centuries past. 

Akiva..Yasher coach...very nicely put.

Rabbi B responds

>>Forgive, please, a tad of sarcasm:

>>Gee, if Rabbanit Henkin could figure that out, couldn't she do some of
her
>>male sponsors and supporters a favor and let them know the secret?

>>YGB


Rabbi B maybe if we forgive your sacrcasm can you forgive mine.

Rabbinit Henkin ALREADY shared some of her secrets with the male 
sponsors. The trouble is no one is listening.

Let me give a concrete example. I have been arguing DEFIICENT vs FULL
spelling. To use Akiva's language I started from scratch and built up a 
logical system that explains these midrashim.

I (like Rabinit Henkin) offered this system to you

Rather than thank me you stood inflexible. The reason you stood
inflexible
is not because of your lack of intelligence but rather because somebody
once said that we don't understand the DEFICIENT and FULL midrashim
and you refuse to give this MAAMAR up. 

If however you would become flexible and TRY TO APPLY THE METHODS
I SUGGESTED TO other DEFICIENT/FULL spellings then you would become
as bright as me.

It has nothing to do with intelligence---just with plain old flexibility,
obstinacy
and the ability to try something new.

Russell
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

It would seem (postings below) that Rabbi B and I (finally)
agree on something---the importance of Taharat Mishpacah
and of increasing knowledge of it.

BUT...it may be (God forbid) that we still disagree on Grammar.

In short progress is being made on Achdus 
Russell

>>>>>>
RRJH seems to believe I disagree with him. Quite the opposite.

It would ...be enough to
recruit more women for organizations like "Daughters of Israel" hee in
Chicago or "Women's Orthodox League" in Detroit etc 
>>>>>>>>
Rabbi B makes a good point...there are ALREADY structures in place
to mimic women giving advise. NOTE: I have deleted the remainder
of his message since I do not share Rabbi B's sarcasm
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Eli Turkel (Av4n27) speaks about keeping a vatikin custom
necessitating davening at home and missing hoshanoth etc.

Here is my knowledge of these things.

1)VATIKIN only applies to SHMA and SHMONEH ESRAY.

2) So my advise to the young person would be to say
SHMA and SHMONEH ESRAY (Shacharith at home)

3) However there is NO reason why he can't go to 
shule afterwards and do the following
---say BARCU, KEDUSHA
--listen to laining
---say Hallel and Hoshanoth with Tzibbur.

4) If a person (because of time constraints) MUST chose
between VATIKIN Shmoneh Esray vs Hoshanoth beTzibbur
then VATIKIN SHMONEH ESRAY wins out since the the main
part of tefillah is SHMONEH ESRAY

(After writing this I saw Gershon Dubins posting....but I believe
point 4 I wrote adds to what he said)

Russell
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

David Finch writes

>To overgeneralize vastly, boys are not capable of serious abstract
learning 
>until they have come to grips with their hormones. Sometimes that occurs
in 
>their early twenties, or late thirties, or in any case hopefully after
middle 
>age.

HOW ABOUT AFTER THEY GET MARRIED

 Also, boys, unlike girls, are not capable of combining abstract learning

>with true wisdom until they have experienced first-hand (personally or
by 
>immediate observation) a wide variety of the life issues addressed in
Shas. 

HOW ABOUT HAVING SOME GOOD ROLE MODELS IN PARENTS AND
GRANDPARENT AND REBBES

I don't disagree with the ISSUES raised by David but the age
specifications
he gives are rediculous. More specifically if someone gets married young
and
has been exposed to life stories from parents and friends then "he is
capable".

Russell

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Micah writes

>RRJH is not disagreeing on the significance of spelling chaseir or
malei.
>Rather, he asserts that that significance comes from the difference in
>grammar that lead to the difference in spelling. I'd like to see where R
>SR Hirsch says that, because it's hard to say every chaseir v'malei
follows
>a particular rule on RRJH's say-so. I don't think he learned every one.
>RSRH, OTOH, counts and categorizes the machlokesim between batei Hillel
>viShammai. It's realistic to think he compiled a canonical list here
too.

>However, introducing this step in the middle as a unifying explanation
for
>the significance of chaseir vs malei doesn't really change the first or
>last steps. He's still saying you make d'rashos because of the spelling
--
>but because the spelling is because of a different rule of dikduk, which
>changes the meaning to indicate the limud.

To respond to Micah I cite what I told Rabb B (With regard to sources---
I inferred them from RSRHs comments on SUCCAH in Leviticus  23)

Micah believes in the PIEL Binyan. All this asserts is that
	>CHIRIK = PIEL = INTENSE Verb form

Similarly my assertion that 
	>DEFICIENT SPELLING = CHASER RULE=DEFICIENTCY IN MEANING
is a similar grammatical rule.

There are 11 Chaser/Maly Rashis in Brayshit (See a recent issue of Rashi
is Simple
at http://www.shamash.org/rashi/h3n23.htm)

Let us look at some examples

>EPHRON was a DEFICIENT person (he wasn't all there)-EPHRON 
>Rivkahs twins were deficient (ESAUV wasn't all there)-TOMIM
>Not all generations need protection from the flood (DRTH)
>Not all people conquer the world (CVSHUA)
>Tamars twins were BOTH good people (TEOMIM)

Notice how ALL these examples follow a pattern. It is no different than
the PATTERN of the Piel. We have PURE GRAMMAR, PURE PSHAT
PURE SIMPLICITY here. I could go on but I think I have made the
point I wanted to. I would estimate that there are about 2 dozen more
examples of Rashis like this in the rest of Chumash

Russell




___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

----- Original Message -----
From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@juno.com>

> Let me give a concrete example. I have been arguing DEFIICENT vs FULL
> spelling. To use Akiva's language I started from scratch and built up a
> logical system that explains these midrashim.
>

I assume you spelled DEFIICENT with two i's where you did to illustrate the
point :-).

You have, from my perspective,  redefined terms to prove your point.

Most of us do not regard spelling variations as a grammatical rule. If you
would like to be mechaddesh that spelling variations are grammatical rules,
you need proofs from Chazal.

I.e., if you would find in a novel by Shai Agnon "nesi'im" written chaser,
you would not assume it to have a different meaning than nesi'im maleh.

Further back, if you find in a Rishon "kivshuha" chaser instead of malei you
would not be medayek it as possessing a different meaning.

I am curious, and I am sure you can shed light on the topic, if even in Nach
we darshen malei and chaser as we do in Chumash.

But, if we found a grammatical change ("pi'el" let us say instead of
"hiph'il") we would be medayek it in a Rishon, and read the passage in Agnon
differently.

So, I do not see how you can call this a grammatical rule.

But, if our dispute is purely one of taxonomy, it is not worth continuing. I
will concede.

You still owe me, however, the Yerushalmi.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>
Subject: Chabad + Driving on Shabbos

david.nadoff@bfkpn.com wrote

>In V4#40 Micha wrote: The Conservative
movement decided to tell its followers who
wouldn't otherwise have access to Judaism
that they may drive to shul and back on Shabbos.
Technically, that's not much different than the
Chabad meshulach who invites someone he
knows will be driving to and from on Shabbos.<

>The anti-Chabad animus that tends to crop
 >up on this list is incredible. How can
>you even think to equate the Conservative
 >and Chabad shitos regarding driving on
>Shabbos?

It is indeed sad that Chabad is being equated to the
Conservatives. IMHO, unfortunately some over
enthusiastic Chabad shlichim (who obviously
lack Torah and/or Yiras Shomayim and/or Seychel)
are to blame.

In our city (where Chabad has huge achievements) there is
 a particular Chabad house which specialises in Friday night
functions/dinners for young touring Israeli's. Dozens of them
 turn up most weeks in this quiet (mainly religious Jewish)
 street on their motor cycles etc  creating noise and
havoc etc etc. The leaders of this CH know well that
 most (if not all) will be coming and going with Chillul
Shabbos - but this doesn't seem to concern them.
The prominent Chabad rabonim in town have said
nothing (at least publicly). I have no doubt that they
could put a stop to this. Is this a case of  'Mideshoske
 Shma Mino Denicho Lehu'? Who knows?

However as this behaviour seems quite prevalent amongst
Chabad emissaries everywhere, maybe they have a Psak
from the Rebbe zt''l allowing this?  If so, would someone
have details?

SBA

There have been repeated assertions, without any substantive evidence, that
women are unwilling to ask shailos of male rabbonim.  This seems very
strange to me.  I asked one of the prominent morei horaah in my community,
who remarked that if he would make himself available he would be answering
TH shailos an entire day, from both men and women.  I asked a number of
women if they had refrained from asking shailos when their husbands weren't
available to do so, and they uniformly replied that they had not.  I
acknowledge that this anecdotal evidence is no better than that which was
offered, but no worse.  We simply do not know if a problem exists.

In reference to Rabbi Dratch's comment about mikvah use, I would note that
when I was at YU in the 60s the officials of the Washington Heights mikvah
refused to make public the figures for mikvah use, acknowledging that they
were so low as to be profoundly embarrasssing. This was a community which
included Breuer's as well as other groups.  Some had suggested that women
preferred, for reasons of tznius or other concerns, to use non-local
mikvaos - perhaps.  There can be little doubt that mikvah use has increased
dramatically in recent years.  It still remains unclear what problem the
training of Yoatzot addresses.

Melech Press
M. Press, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology, Touro College
1602 Avenue J, Brooklyn, NY 11230
718-252-7800, x275; fax:718-645-1816
mpress@ix.netcom.com or melechp@touro.edu

Rabbi Bechhofer,

I too wish to apologize.  Apparently my anger at those who dismiss Hesder Yeshivot and 
their graduates made me think that you were in this category and I was wrong.

My husband and his friends (those who added the smicha program to their kollel studies) 
all had shimush and personal experience in all the matters they studied, including 
shechitah, hilchot Nidah (I should know as I took part in this section of his 
shimush<g> as did those of my friends whose husbands were also studying for Semicha) 
etc.  

Shavu'a Tov,

Shoshana

-------------------------------------
Name: Shoshana L. Boublil
E-mail: toramada@mail.netvision.net.il
Date: 17/10/99
Time: 08:01:17 AM , Israel

This message was sent by Chameleon 
-------------------------------------
Torah U'Madah Ltd. is developing a DB on the topic:
"Environmental issues and the Halacha (Jewish Law)"
any and all related information would be welcome.

I was wondering if to say something, but after Chana and Jonathan's posts I think I 
should:

One of the questions Chana raised was talking to her mother.  In my experience, one of 
the first things we try to do is break down the wall of silence on this issue.  I (and 
others I know) send the kallah, prior to marriage, to two people to discuss the most 
intimate of matters:  specific minhagim related to niddah and tevila:  her mother and to 
her future mil.

From experience the results have been absolutely great:  the kallah realizes that she is 
in fact _not_ the first to face it and calms down, the mil realizes she is gaining a 
daughter <g> and I've even had a case where b/c of specific halachic problems for a 
certain Eidah, the mother and mil got together to discuss matters together, and with 
their rabbi, and solved the issues before they became one.

cont.:
--- On Sat, 16 Oct 1999 23:03:43 -0500  Avodah <owner-avodah@aishdas.org> wrote:

>Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 20:14:33 -0400 (EDT)
>From: "Jonathan J. Baker" <jjbaker@panix.com>
>Subject: Yoatzot
>
>From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
>> Question: is it realistic to expect husbands to ask sensistive she'los on
>> behalf of their wives?
> 
>> If yes, the Yoatzot are {apparently} unncecessary.
>> If no, then they ARE necessary and not optional.
>
>From: "Michael Poppers" <MPoppers@kayescholer.com>
>> From Rabbanit C. Henkin:
>> > For reasons of modesty, women do not wish to, and often will not, 
>> > discuss a hilkhot nidda question with a man.
>> For reasons of privacy, some women don't want to discuss their situations
>> with *any* non-family member.  For reasons of modesty, some women want
>> their husbands to bring Halachic questions to their Rav.  Call me dense, but
>> I don't see how the point in the ... CHenkin sentence buttresses her program
>
>To answer both points: I personally find it icky dealing with the bedika
>cloth.  So my wife has to overcome what she knows is my revulsion for 
>even trying to ask a question.  She needs me as an intermediary because
>our LOR won't talk to her - I think it's his own personal quirk, but 
>when we went to ask him a shaila recently, her shaila, he talked at me
>and wouldn't look at her.  And what if he needs more details?

This is truly in contrast with the rabbis I know.  They have all complained that they 
wish the women would come themselves and ask as the men never know all the details and 
that can cause problems.

Rav Chaim David HaLevy in his books stresses this, and as a kallah guide I have 
emphasized that, especially during the first 3 months of marriage, when a woman still 
doesn't know "her" colors, _every_ question should go straight to a rabbi.  I have gone 
so far as to make sure who the future husband's rabbi was and whether he answered Niddah 
questions, and if not I would give them phone numbers and names of rabbis they could 
approach wherever they lived in Israel.

During my husband's shimush in Hilchot Niddah, I was also in contact with the rabbis and 
they made it clear that this is not a subject of tznius but of halachah, and judaism 
considers this a matter of keduasha and tahara and people shouldn't be influenced by 
false modesty as there is no room for this here.  This is what I teach the kallot who 
come to me, as do others that I know.

As many of the members of this list are rabbis, perhaps they can find a way to address 
this issue in lectures to kallah guides so that things can change for the better where 
necessary.

Shoshana
-------------------------------------
Name: Shoshana L. Boublil
E-mail: toramada@mail.netvision.net.il
Date: 17/10/99
Time: 08:17:32 AM , Israel

This message was sent by Chameleon 
-------------------------------------
Torah U'Madah Ltd. is developing a DB on the topic:
"Environmental issues and the Halacha (Jewish Law)"
any and all related information would be welcome.

Here in Israel, there is a law that you can only be charged as high as is what appears 
on the shelfs, so if there is a scanner error, the supermarket has to correct it and 
bill you only the lower value.  The same if the error is in the supermarket computer.  
This includes special prices etc. -- as long as the posters are up -- the supermarket 
has to honor them.

In Supersol they have a system that if you catch an error -- they give you "points" 
which entitle you to benefits.  Most people I know watch the scanner very carefully 
<g>!

Perhaps this is why I haven't had to deal with this issue in a halachic basis.

Shoshana, Israel

--- On Sat, 16 Oct 1999 23:03:43 -0500  Avodah <owner-avodah@aishdas.org> wrote:
>Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 22:50:38 -0500
>From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
>Subject: Hilchos Scanners
>
>After almost being overcharged by over 100% on a bottle of wine due to a
>scanner error this past Friday at a local kosher supermarket, the following
>he'oro struck me:
>
>When shopping at a Jewish-owned supermarket, perhaps more especially so with
>a scanner, one needs to check if the price on the receipt matches the one on
>the shelf.
>
>If the shopkeeper undercharged, you may be required to correct him/her
>because ta'us Yisroel is assur. This may not be the case, however, as
>perhaps dina d'malchusa requires the storekeeper to give you the scanned
>price. If anyone has any information, please advise us.
>
>If the shopkeeper overcharged, assuming you are not interested in having
>him/her roasted over those coals in the Hereafter, you must either be mochel
>the geneiva/ono'oh or request a refund. Otherwise, the shopkeeper is
>transgressing one of those prohibitions.
>
>These parameters do not necesarily apply to a non-Jewish owned store.
>
>Comments?
>
>Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
>Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
>ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

-------------------------------------
Name: Shoshana L. Boublil
E-mail: toramada@mail.netvision.net.il
Date: 17/10/99
Time: 08:49:44 AM , Israel

This message was sent by Chameleon 
-------------------------------------
Torah U'Madah Ltd. is developing a DB on the topic:
"Environmental issues and the Halacha (Jewish Law)"
any and all related information would be welcome.

In message , Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> writes
>I have a problem with this line of reasoning. Normally, a problem in the
>Orthodox community is aired, people become ever more aware of it, and,
>usually, it will reach minor or major crisis proportions before something is
>finally done. Case in point: The agonizing and tragic Agunah situation.
>Another case in point: The problem of Yeshiva-system dropouts. Another one:
>Shalom Bayis and spousal abuse.
>
>To the best of my awareness, and I try to keep my ear to the ground, there
>was no great crisis in taharas ha'mishpocho (THM). 

Then you haven't been keeping your ear to the ground sufficiently
closely.  My kalla teacher told me that the Rabbaim of the Aguda (and
others) had organised refresher courses in taharas hamishpacha in London
because of the concern throughout the community (she is talking charedi
community here, which which she identifies, and with which her husband
is heavily involved) that not enough shialas are being asked.  This was
in April/May.

And lo and behold, the last couple of weeks, in the Jewish tribune
(Aguda journal), big (half page) ads about a new set of refresher
courses (normal announcements for courses and such are likely to be
stuck at the back in the special place for them), trumpeting the names
of the women leading the courses (big letters, unusual for women) and
stating how knowledgeable they are.  I only noticed them because a)
kalla teacher had told me why they were doing this, and b) they had
relevance - but somebody either paid big money for the ad, or more,
likely, they were told to run them free by the powers that be.

My kalla teacher did put a big stress on going to a Rav, but it was also
clear from what she said, and the way she said it, that in the London
charedi community at least, it is a big problem. (Of course it is
possible that Americans, being more upfront and willing to talk about
things in general, are more comfortable with discussing such matters).

BTW Just a question (and you do not need to answer it here, just to
yourself).  If you can remember, how many shialas (ie number) did you
ask in this area when you were first married (say first four-five
months, plus add in the month before the wedding)? How many did your
wife ask? Who did she ask (your posek or hers)? Now ask her this
question - how did she feel about it, and (you can probably ask her this
question these days) was she able to tell you everything that happened
in this area, and can she swear she was never machmir because she didn't
feel able to talk to anybody?  Ask her, see what she says.

>Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
>Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
>ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila
>

Kind Regards

Chana

-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

I've stayed out of the discussion of the YOATZOT program until now because
I know the Henkins well. What I have to say is a little controversial.
Although the Tzitz Eliezer Chelek Yud Gimmel 81 s"k Gimmel says we don't
use chemical tests to determine whether the dam is DAM HA'MAKOR, others
(Nishmat Avraham in the name of Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach) say that it
may be permissible. Look at the Bet Lechem Yehuda YOREH DEAH 190 s"k 18
on chemical tests (e.g. if she spits on the stain and it disappears; or if
the stain has no LOVEN around it). One can now determine with absolute
certainty whether the blood is dam hamakor or not (use of isotachophoresis
has been used in forensic medicine to differentiate menstrual from other
blood [see: J Forensic Science 1985;30:922-930]; presence of endometrial
proteins by gel electrophoresis and protein staining; immunocytochemistry
by use of monoclonal antibodies of presence of metalloproteinases; increased
levels of HbF hemoglobin).

Simple kits are available today to do the above. Add optical Fourier transform
of the pattern of the KETEM (e.g. bigger than K'GARIS) plus a color chart
[cross-checked and compared by leading poskim: let's call it an *expert
system*] and women could do their *own* testing.

L'HOROT L'ATZMO: see SHU'T Chavot Yair 122. Especially as the YD states 190:18
Keivan she'ktemamim d'rabbannan meykilim bahem V'TOLEH BECHOL DAVAR sheyechola
litlot".

Josh

********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]