Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 040

Friday, October 15 1999

• Yoatzot
• Again- Yoatzot and Misc.
• re: yoatzot
• re: yoatzot
• Lavie Conference (was: Again- Yoatzot and Misc.)
• re: yoatzot vs. improving men's programs
• Re: Beit Midrash L'Rabbonim.
• Women Yoatzot
• Genuine Dialogue
• Re: Veses Kovua
• Re: "Roiv Noshim Ein Lohem Veset Kovua"
• Re: Again- Yoatzot and Misc.
• RE: Avodah V4 #39
• re: cryptic objections to yoatzot
• Re: cryptic objections to yoatzot
• Re: "Roiv Noshim Ein Lohem Veset Kovua"
• Re: Veses Kovua
• Re: Again- Yoatzot and Misc.
• yoatzot
• Re: Avodah V4 #39
• Re: yoatzot

Rabbi Mark Dratch commented:
	I find the condescending attitude of some of the posts, regarding the 
learning, yiras shamayim and intentions of those involved in this to be 
personally insulting and beside the point.  Rabbanit Henkin has bent
over 
backwards to cross every "t" and dot every "i" to make sure that the ad 
hominem attacks would have no merit.  These students have had months of 
shimmush with poskim, months of medical training (besides Dr.
Zimmerman's MD) 
and, knowing one of them personally (for what that is worth), know that
she 
comes to this with real yiras ha-din and, like any responsble
individual, 
will consult when she knows she is out of her league.  


Hear Hear!! I can't imagine anyone putting the case better.

Jeffrey Woolf

I agree w RYGB that none of us can tell the future.I can only add a few
more points as food for thought:

1) In my ten years of experience as a shul Rav,I found that most women
would rather be mahmir in marot than ask (though about 80% of the
shaylos were open and shut either way). Being able to ask a
knowledgeable woman will only enhance TM and maybe raise the birthrate.

2)The opposition of Yeshivot to rabbinical schools had more to do with
fear of Reform and Haskalah than of 'quickie' semichas. I know many old
style rabbanikm with semicha from Gedloe Lita who received their letters
after 'reden in lehrnen' in Qodashim and Taharos! Not YD!

3) Rav Warhaftig, the head of the Nishmat program, sits on a Besdin for
Dine Mamonos with Reb Zalman Nehemiah. I doubt that he would do so if he
felt that his partner, Rav W was an okher yisrael.

4) As with many things, feminism is a question of degree. If it stops at
the lines set by Halakha, it's accomadatable. If not, it's excoriable.
As it happens, the Toanot and Yoatzot I know are filled with Ahavas
HaTorah and Yiras Shamayim that the men should envy.

5) Jack Riemer is a smart man but hardly a sybil on the future of
Orthodoxy. If men are learning less, it's partly because we define MO
incorrectly. It is a humra, requiring more study and less liesure
(simply because there are more worldss to conquer). Moreover, and this
is another issue, based on things said at lat week's Lavie Conference,
one begins to wonder if yeshivish lehrnen is the only model of Talmud
Torah which an fulfill the spiritual needs of this generation.

					Jeffrey Woolf

Does anyone have any info about the "positions" which will be opened up
for these women? Will they simply be community people who are
approachable and friendly, or are there specific shuls who plan to hire
these women in a manner similar to the "interns" at Lincoln Square
Synagogue a year or two ago?

I suppose the use of the word "positions" indicates employment, but
everyone has been curiously silent about where they'd be employed. I
support these women's desire to help their communities, but I also agree
that there are clearly other agendas in operation as well.

Akiva Miller
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Rabbi Bechhofer wrote <<< The only reason these women will pasken better
than their male counterparts is because, due to the Orthodox Feminist
agenda, money is being thrown at them, special training provided for
them, and positions (for influence) provided for them... Far more ratzon
Hashem would be accomplished by providing the same money, training and
positions as incentives to the best and brightest MO men - who, as I
really believe, would do far better than the women! ... These women will
pasken better because the resources etc. that should have gone into
making emes'er morei horo'o and gedolei torah is being deprived the boys
and being given the girls. This is, in my opinion, bad. >>>

Thank you very much for explaining yourself so clearly.

But it seems to me that if these moneys and efforts were given to the men
as you suggest, it would be a negligible drop in the bucket. There are
loads of yeshivos for men. Which ones would you give the money to? What
would they do that they aren't *already* doing, towards <<< making
emes'er morei horo'o and gedolei torah >>>?

If it is true that <<< these women will pasken better than their male
counterparts >>>, I believe that it is NOT because <<< money is being
thrown at them >>>, but rather because of <<< special training provided
for them >>>.

If it is true that <<< these women will pasken better because the
resources etc. that should have gone into making emes'er morei horo'o and
gedolei torah is being deprived the boys and being given the girls >>>
then we need to identify what those resources are. I believe that the
resources involve the curriculum, i.e., exposure to the appropriate
learning materials. This is not something that will be solved by throwing
money at it, but only by a change of attitude on the part of those who
decide these things. If and when that is accomplished, then the men will
pasken better also.

Akiva Miller
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

--- "Dr. Jeffrey R. Woolf" <woolfj@mail.biu.ac.il> wrote:
> Moreover, and
> this
> is another issue, based on things said at lat week's Lavie
> Conference,
> one begins to wonder if yeshivish lehrnen is the only model of
> Talmud
> Torah which an fulfill the spiritual needs of this generation.
> 

All I read about the Lavie Conference was the article in Ha'aretz. 
Could someone describe the content/underpinnings/etc. of the
conference, or at least refer me to articles which do so?

Kol tuv,
Moshe


=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

--- Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:
> Rabbi Bechhofer wrote <<< The only reason these women will pasken
> better
> than their male counterparts is because, due to the Orthodox
> Feminist
> agenda, money is being thrown at them, special training provided
> for
> them, and positions (for influence) provided for them... Far more
> ratzon
> Hashem would be accomplished by providing the same money, training
> and
> positions as incentives to the best and brightest MO men - who, as
> I
> really believe, would do far better than the women! ... These women
> will
> pasken better because the resources etc. that should have gone into
> making emes'er morei horo'o and gedolei torah is being deprived the
> boys
> and being given the girls. This is, in my opinion, bad. >>>
> 
> Thank you very much for explaining yourself so clearly.
> 
> But it seems to me that if these moneys and efforts were given to
> the men
> as you suggest, it would be a negligible drop in the bucket. There
> are
> loads of yeshivos for men. Which ones would you give the money to?
> What
> would they do that they aren't *already* doing, towards <<< making
> emes'er morei horo'o and gedolei torah >>>?
> 
> If it is true that <<< these women will pasken better than their
> male
> counterparts >>>, I believe that it is NOT because <<< money is
> being
> thrown at them >>>, but rather because of <<< special training
> provided
> for them >>>.
> 
> If it is true that <<< these women will pasken better because the
> resources etc. that should have gone into making emes'er morei
> horo'o and
> gedolei torah is being deprived the boys and being given the girls
> >>>
> then we need to identify what those resources are. I believe that
> the
> resources involve the curriculum, i.e., exposure to the appropriate
> learning materials. This is not something that will be solved by
> throwing
> money at it, but only by a change of attitude on the part of those
> who
> decide these things. If and when that is accomplished, then the men
> will
> pasken better also.
> 

I would add that, based on my experience with YU semicha, it is very
difficult to overhaul existing semicha programs because institutions
don't like to change (there are vested interests, etc.).  If the new
women's program is successful, this might prod certain men's
institutions to overhaul their programs.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

There have been several institutions, Orthodox and not, that were called
such, but I was referring more to the concept: A seminary for the express
purpose of training rabbis, as opposed to Torah learning for its own sake.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

----- Original Message -----
From: Jacob Klerman <klerman@rand.org>
To: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>;
<avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 2:57 PM
Subject: Beit Midrash L'Rabbonim.


> R. Bechhofer used the term "Beit Midrash L'Rabbonim".  Does this refer
> to a specific (historical) institution?  To an idea?  Please explain the
> reference.  I can translate the words, but more seems to be implied.
>
>

I was away for several days.

Has anyone mentioned the role of "Mikva Lady" as analogous to the Yoatzot?

Rich Wolpoe 

----- Original Message -----
From: Clark, Eli <clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM>
To: avodah list <avodah@aishdas.org>

> >Real dialogue is a thing of the past, likely never to be seen
> >again ad bi'as Go'el Tzedek (b'meheira b'yomeinu!).
>
> To be honest, I don't think there was much real dialogue in the past
> either.
I think when the RW was headed by R' Aharon Kotler and R' Moshe Feinstein et
al and the MO by RYBS, the personal connections (family and friendship)
ensured true dialogue. Much of the common personal bond between RW and MO no
longer exists, and with it went dialogue.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

In a message dated 10/14/99 4:48:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk writes:

> Sigh, I should have known.  According to my kalla teacher...
>  
Unfortunately there are times that faults can be found in some Kallah 
classes, and even in refresher courses, this should always be brought to the 
attention of the Mara D'asroh.  However this does not prove that a Kallah 
class instructor needs to be a Baki in Hil. Niddah (of course every women is 
obligated to learn all of the Torah that is Nogeia to her including Hil. 
Niddah etc. (see S"O Horav Hil. Talmud Torah end of first chapter), my point 
here is the Gemarah, Rashi, Tos., Rishonim, Tur, Sidrei Taharoh, etc.), she 
must be tested by the Mara Dasroh to make sure that she knows for herself and 
relates it properly.

Another point husbands have to be involved too, and Seforim write how it is 
most important to study these laws over and over, there was one great sage 
who studied this 1000 times.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

P.S. there are 14 kinds of Vestos.

In a message dated 10/14/99 6:13:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
klerman@rand.org writes:

> Can you provide an exact citation?  Not doubting you.  I just want to
>  see it inside.
>  
It is brought in todays Poskim, see i.e. "Gufei Halachos" Hil. Nidah 181 (1), 
Machasheves Hataharah 24:3, Badei Hashulchon 184 first of the Biurim on that 
Simon.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 10/14/99 5:40:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
woolfj@mail.biu.ac.il writes:

> 1) In my ten years of experience as a shul Rav,I found that most women
>  would rather be mahmir in marot than ask (though about 80% of the
>  shaylos were open and shut either way). Being able to ask a
>  knowledgeable woman will only enhance TM and maybe raise the birthrate.
>  
This is not a straight forward Chumrah, many Kulos can come out of it as 
well, and to keep track of all posibilities requires a strong concentration.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 13:21:22 -0500
>From: "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Yoatzot (Fw: Avodah V4 #37)
>
>- ----- Original Message -----
>From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
>
>> 1.  I question how much money & training is being provided to Yoatzot
>> at Nishmat in comparison to those who study for the rabbinate at
>> Yeshivot Hesder.  Do you really think that the reason these yoatzot
>> were successful in their studies is that money was thrown at them?
>
>No money is spent on Hesder Semicha programs. I do not even know of any
>formal training programs.

Excuse me, nearly every Hesder program in Israel has a Smicha program (I'm saying 
"nearly" b/c I haven't personally checked, but all the Hesder's I've come in contact 
with have them). 

There are actually 2 programs:

a) obtaining a teaching degree and B.A. in education with the emphasise on Limudei 
Kodesh.  This started out at Yeshivat Har Etzion, with Hesder Bachurim coming in to 
learn there, but now many of the Yeshivot Hesder have their own programs.  The B.A. is 
optional.

b) Semicha programs.  After finishing the 5 year service/study cycle they remain in the 
Hesder Kollel and study Semicha.  Such a program existed in the Yamit Hesder Yeshiva 
already 18 years ago (where my husband began his Semicha studies) and AFAIK, all Hesder 
Yeshivot have attached kollelim and most of them have Semicha programs.

The cost is the same as  university and various grants are available.

Shoshana

-------------------------------------
Name: Shoshana L. Boublil
E-mail: toramada@mail.netvision.net.il
Date: 15/10/99
Time: 12:49:09 AM , Israel

This message was sent by Chameleon 
-------------------------------------
Torah U'Madah Ltd. is developing a DB on the topic:
"Environmental issues and the Halacha (Jewish Law)"
any and all related information would be welcome.

Responding to my

> Isn't that a rather presumptuous claim to understand their
> motivations?

RYGB comments:

> I do not claim to understand their motivations. As I mentioned earlier
> in different terms, I may be entirely or partially wrong. I am only
> asking others to have the humility to realize they may be entirely or
> partially wrong as well. Which is why this development cannot be
> regarded as unquestionably positive.
>
> I have not seen such humility manifest to date.

Nor have I seen much humility in some of the quarters opposing the
yoatzot.  I'm still not getting it as to why an attempt by women to
seriously engage in learning has to meet with such hostility and
opposition and calling their bona fides (good faith) into question (B"H,
this list mostly not promoting such).

Someone objected in private email to my analogy to Nathan the prophet and
his story to King David about the sheep.  By now I've read at least one
digest and I see that someone else has made the same point, albeit more
diplomatically.  I still don't understand why there is such a grudging
attitude about women's learning in some quarters.  I stand by the analogy
-- there's SO much opportunity for men to do serious learning out there!
Why begrudge the opportunity for women?

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu

--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> I do not claim to understand their motivations. As I mentioned
> earlier in
> different terms, I may be entirely or partially wrong. 



Here are some snippets from RYGB's prior postings which seem to imply
that he is fairly confident that his understanding is correct:

v4 #30:
<<As you might have guessed, liberal as I am, I regard this new trend
is
disturbing and dubious.>>

v4 #32:
<<
Incorrect. There is plenty of room to be other than pleased.
>>

v4 #33:
<<I will respond right now to only one aspect that is disturbing in
this
matter, v'od chazon la'moe'd.
<snip>
As one who care deeply about *all* streams of Orthodoxy, therefore, I
foresee grave reprecussions.
>>

v4 #35:
<<Obviously, for some quarters this was not enough. It would not be
enough to
recruit more women for organizations like "Daughters of Israel" hee
in
Chicago or "Women's Orthodox League" in Detroit etc. Nor to increase
their
funding and push membership therein.

Why not?

I believe I understand very well why not.
>>

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

> "Gufei Halachos" Hil. Nidah 181 (1)
 
Correction: should read 184 (1)

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

 In a message dated 10/14/99 4:48:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Chana/Heather@
 luntz.demon.co.uk writes:
  
 > Sigh, I should have known.  According to my kalla teacher...
 >  
  Unfortunately there are times that faults can be found in some Kallah 
 classes, and even in refresher courses, this should always be brought to the 
 attention of the Mara D'asroh.  However this does not prove that a Kallah 
 class instructor needs to be a Baki in Hil. Niddah (of course every women is 
 obligated to learn all of the Torah that is Nogeia to her including Hil. 
 Niddah etc. (see S"O Horav Hil. Talmud Torah end of first chapter), my point 
 here is the Gemarah, Rashi, Tos., Rishonim, Tur, Sidrei Taharoh, etc.), she 
 must be tested by the Mara Dasroh to make sure that she knows for herself 
and 
 relates it properly.
  
  Another point husbands have to be involved too, and Seforim write how it is 
 most important to study these laws over and over, there was one great sage 
 who studied this 1000 times.
  
  Kol Tuv
  
  Yitzchok Zirkind
  
  P.S. there are 14 kinds of Vestos.

 In a message dated 10/14/99 5:40:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, woolfj@mail.
biu.ac.il writes:
  
> 1) In my ten years of experience as a shul Rav,I found that most women
>  would rather be mahmir in marot than ask (though about 80% of the
>  shaylos were open and shut either way). Being able to ask a
>  knowledgeable woman will only enhance TM and maybe raise the birthrate.
>  
 This is not a straight forward Chumrah, many Kulos can come out of it as 
 well, and to keep track of all posibilities requires a strong concentration.
  
  Kol Tuv
  
 Yitzchok Zirkind

RYGB writes "No money is spent on Hesder Semicha programs. I do not even
know of any formal training programs."
You yourself mentioned that Machon Ariel was a sponsor of the Yoatzot
learning program and that it was a semichah program similar to Beth Medrash
LaRabbanim.  Being a musmach of Machon Ariel myself, I can assure you that
at least 80% of the members of the Kollel in which I learned were hesder
graduates.  The majority of the faculty were clearly RZ.  We received
government stipends and private money.
I also met many talmidei chachamim who learned in many kollelim around EY
which prepared them for the Rabbanut Semichah exams.  Unfortunately I don't
remember the names of these kollelim, but I'm sure I can find out for you
if you would like.  I would imagine that money was required to support
these programs. I can assure you also, that having learned in both RW and
RZ yeshivos and kollelim, the caliber of those people who I learned with in
Machon Ariel was unmatched by any other group of talmidei chachamim that I
have ever been exposed to.  If the women of Rabbanit Henkin's group
followed the same curriculum that I did when I learned Hilchos niddah at
Ariel, then I can assure you that they definitely "know their stuff" quite
well.
Another thing, the fact that the contributors to Tradition are mostly not
"klei kodesh" is a testament to the success of MO Judaism.  It is perhaps
one of the greatest sources of pride to see such talmidei chachamim, who
are also baalei derekh eretz.  I also suspect that the percentage of MO men
going into the rabbinate in EY is much larger than in Chu'L.
Shaul Weinreb

----- Original Message -----
From: <toramada@netvision.net.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>; <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>

> Excuse me, nearly every Hesder program in Israel has a Smicha program (I'm
saying
> "nearly" b/c I haven't personally checked, but all the Hesder's I've come
in contact
> with have them).
>
> b) Semicha programs.  After finishing the 5 year service/study cycle they
remain in the
> Hesder Kollel and study Semicha.  Such a program existed in the Yamit
Hesder Yeshiva
> already 18 years ago (where my husband began his Semicha studies) and
AFAIK, all Hesder
> Yeshivot have attached kollelim and most of them have Semicha programs.
>

Studying for semicha bechinos is not what I mean by a semicha program.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

In v4n38, Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il> writes:
:                     As far as I can tell all the objections are not
: halakhic or even pseudo-halakhic. They all come down to the sliipery slope
: argument.

I assume you conclude your first statement from your second. However, the
slippery slope IS a halachic issue. After all, "halachah v'ein morin kein"
is real. If you believe there's a real slippery slope, then I would think
you'd support the idea of yoatzot only if there were a way to do it without
public hora'ah. I think that's oxymoronic in this case -- what value has
an advisor that the public doesn't know they can turn to?

A parallel is the subject of driving to shul on Shabbos. The Conservative
movement decided to tell its followers who wouldn't otherwise have access
to Judaism that they may drive to shul and back on Shabbos. Technically,
that's not much different than the Chabad meshulach who invites someone
he knows will be driving to and from on Shabbos.

Discussions of whether the p'sak followed in Chabad is correct on this issue
aside -- look at the pragmatic difference. The Conservative movement ignored
the concept of "v'ein morin kein" and its followers by-and-large now think
driving on Shabbos is okay. It is certainly relied on in situations the framers
hadn't *originally* intended. Chabad's approach makes it clear that this is
a stop-gap, only being permitted because the person will be driving anyway
or some such. No slippery slope and drastically more positive results.

:           I get the impression that RYGB allows women to lead kallah
: classes and mikvah ladies to make decisions only because this has been
: done from time immemorial.

I disagree. The mikvah lady isn't paskening, she's being an informed layperson.
Anything that is the subject of current machlokes poskim or requires significant
thought or research would be forwarded to the local rav. These women are really
being trained to make the local rav redundant -- IOW, they're being placed
in a (albeit limited) rabbinic role, no matter what we call them.

:                            Had women giving kallah classes been a recent
: innovation he might (?) also object to that.
: This amounts to a restatement of "ein chadash tachat hashemesh"

It was the Chazon Ish who changed "chadash assur min haTorah" into a slogan.
He's no welter weight to just assume was wrong. Even if you think he took the
idea too far.

I too do not follow the CI on this. However, you seem to pair RYGB's position
to the CI's shitah as though it's proof of incorrectness.

Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com> writes in v3n39:
: The primary goal here is finding an outlet for talmidot chachamot to
: apply their learning.  There are material benefits to the Jewish
: community in terms of increasing taharat hamishpacha observance, but
: this is a benefit, not a goal.

To my mind, this is actually a counterargument. You're saying that the point
of the program is to find some mitzvah other than limud Torah lishmah as a goal
for their learning. Why is that a good thing? After all, we have no problem
encouraging women to shake lulav -- why not limud Torah (where permissable)
qua limud Torah?

I still see this as a way to provide traditionally male roles to women seeking
them instead of providing more meaning to traditionally female roles. When
it came to women's prayer groups, I thought the idea was misguided because
you reach a dead-end at "almost a minyan". Aiming people at minyan-like
spirituality but telling them they can't actually have a minyan is dooming
them to be frustrated at their goals. Similarly, aiming women at Rabbinic-like
positions but telling them they can't be Rabbis. We can not provide them
the religious experience they're seeking that way. We'd be better served
getting people reoriented back to the channels Jews have traditionally sought
spirituality and halachah allows full expression of.

The fact that halachah doesn't allow full expression of a particular kind of
religiosity for people of a given gender might even be argued aggadicly as
an indication that the route as a whole is a bad idea.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 15-Oct-99: Shishi, Noach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 53b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]