Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 029

Saturday, October 9 1999

• SCJ
• Re: The Demise of Mizrachi?
• Re: women 'poskim'
• Re: Mapic in Aramaic
• Re: The Demise of Mizrachi?
• FW: Rabbi Doniel Neustadt's halacha column
• Re: women 'poskim'
• Re: location of "Torah Codes"-related WWWsites
• NCSY
• Re: women 'poskim'
• Re: kodshecha - kodsh'cha
• RE: Avodah V4 #27

How does one join SCJ?

--- Michael Poppers <MPoppers@kayescholer.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> > Anyone interested in the statistical validity of the Torah codes
> is
> advised to read an article describing a rebuttal paper to the
> famous
> paper by Eliyahu Rips regarding the codes.  The article is at:
> http://www.slate.com/Features/codedebunk/codedebunk.asp <
> Thanks for the advisement.  "Anyone interested" will doubtless know
> that
> McKay et al. have been arguing with Rips et al. since the
> publication of
> the 1994 paper and that the points in their rebuttal paper, which
> were
> previously published in other forums (e.g. the SCJ newsgroup), have
> in turn
> been rebutted.
> 
> All the best from
> Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ
> 
> 
> 


=====

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--- Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 10/8/99 10:39:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> moshe_feldman@yahoo.com writes:
> 
> << 
>  I fear that you have applied the Agudah model to MO and therefore
>  found the latter wanting.  Agudists look to "top-rank" gedolim for
>  the answers to all their questions.  Therefore, it is important to
>  have a diffuse leadership.  MO, in contrast, gives much more power
>  both laypeople and second-tier rabbis.  For better or worse,
> rabbis
>  such as Rabbi Riskin or Rabbi Rackman had no problem in adopting
>  positions different from their "leader"--Rabbi Soloveitchik.  As a
>  result, RYBS did not stifle creativity or diversity (in addition
> to
>  the fact that he preferred to let others make their own decision
> in
>  all but a few areas which he deemed crucial).
>  
>  Kol tuv,
>  Moshe
>   >>
> I'm not sure what you meant by "as a result". I understood that
> L'chatchila 
> RYBS felt that the creativity and individual choice approach was to
> be 
> encouraged.
> 

Indeed, that is what I meant by my parenthetical "in addition . . .
.."  To restate in clearer language what I wrote:  There are (at
least) two reasons why RYBS' leadership did not stifle creativity: 
1.  He himself preferred not to do so since he valued individual
choice.
2.  Those he led were the type of people who were not seeking
autocratic leadership.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

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--- "Newman,Saul Z" <Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org> wrote:
> please see the article in the jewish week on the newly graduated
> poskot on
> taharat hamishpacha.
> 
> Q--   granted that the psak of these women will not be acceptable
> in the
> yeshiva world, would it be in the MO world?
 
First, the article may be found at
http://www.thejewishweek.com/jwcurr.exe?9910082.

Second, I just wish to emphasize that it is clear (even according to
the charedi viewpoint)--as noted in the article--that women can issue
psak halacha if they are "learned."  The issue is merely what is
considered "learned"--is it sufficient that they have become expert
in Hilchot Niddah, or must they be expert in all areas of halacha,
since all halacha is intertwined.

BTW, I have heard that one of the women poskot mentioned in the
article is reputed to know all of Shas.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

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In a message dated 10/8/99 11:22:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< 
 Is Aramaic dikduk even important? Okay, Hebrew is Lashon haKodesh, there are
 depths and nuances, most of which even modernized versions (by which I'm
 including Mishnaic Hebrew) haven't eliminated. "V'romamtanu mikol halshonos".
 
 Aramaic's only sanctity is in its association with the Jewish people, as
 a vehicle in which we studied and taught Torah, lived halachic lifestyles,
 etc... Wouldn't Aramaic as its spoken have more kedushah than Aramaic as it
 ought to be spoken? >>
Interesting question. What about being yotzeh the megila in yevanit ?

SS
Joel Rich

On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Moshe Feldman wrote:

> I fear that you have applied the Agudah model to MO and therefore found
> the latter wanting.  Agudists look to "top-rank" gedolim for the answers
> to all their questions.  Therefore, it is important to have a diffuse
> leadership.  MO, in contrast, gives much more power both laypeople and
> second-tier rabbis.  For better or worse, rabbis such as Rabbi Riskin or
> Rabbi Rackman had no problem in adopting positions different from their
> "leader"--Rabbi Soloveitchik.  As a result, RYBS did not stifle
> creativity or diversity (in addition to the fact that he preferred to
> let others make their own decision in all but a few areas which he
> deemed crucial).

Sounds like a lot for the worse to me!

I must take one issue: I beliieve the extraordinary fealty to RYBS and
shiur have stifled creativity among the talmidim (I speak of my
contemporaries - those who are not illuim. Illuim are always subject to
different rules) at RIETS. I am talking about independent Chiddushei
Torah.  Other types of creatvity are at best irrelevant and all too often
harmful. 


YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

This is related to the dam/dom discussion, so I thought I'd forward a letter
I wrote R. Neustadt.

> -----Original Message-----
> 
> In the halacha segment for Parshat Breishit, dealing with when a ba'al
> koreh must be corrected, you wrote (I read this in the Yated Neeman
> e-mail):
> <<-When a letter is added, e.g., the word Mitzrayim, written with one yud,
> is read as if it were written with two yuds (Mitzriyim). While these two
> words are pronounced differently, they have the same meaning essentially.
> >>
> 
> I used to think that the explanation of Mishnah Brurah is as you said.
> According to this, the change in meaning from Egypt to Egyptians is not
> considered material.  But I then realized that the word MZRIM can be read
> as either Mitzrayim (Egypt) or Mitzrim (Egyptians).  According to the
> latter reading, there is no change in meaning when a yud is added (Mitzrim
> vs. Mitzri'yim).  This is similar to the Yerushalmi Megillah 2:2 quoted by
> the Shulchan Arukh in Hilchot Megillah 690:14 which says that you are not
> machzir for confusing Yehudim with Yudi'yim.
> 
> Kol tuv,
> Moshe Feldman

In a message dated 10/8/99 12:09:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
moshe_feldman@yahoo.com writes:

<< 
 Second, I just wish to emphasize that it is clear (even according to
 the charedi viewpoint)--as noted in the article--that women can issue
 psak halacha if they are "learned."   >>

I'd be interested to hear from others if this is really clear.  I agree that 
the statement was made in the article, but I wonder if it was meant as a line 
in the sand (i.e. if they were trained for a decade they would be acceptable) 
or was it a way of saying that we don't have to even think about it now  
since they haven't reached that level but once they reach that level, then 
we'll think if there are other reasons not to accept them. ( is this a run on 
sentence :-))

SS
Joel Rich

In Avodah 4#28, MFeldman wrote:
> Where can that rebuttal be found?  In the Witzum torahcodes website? <
The URL provided by EClark contains a number of links which will, in turn
and if he follows enough of 'em, bring the surfer to a number of the
WWWsites.  You can also search SCJ (e.g., using Deja at
http://www.deja.com/home_ps.shtml).

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

P.S. It's "Witztum," not "Witzum."

Our esteemed list owner asked the current status of the mebership in NCSY. 
While generalizations are never 100% accurate, it is safe to say that many 
NCSY members are already observant before beginning their participation. 
Although NCSY has a focus on kiruv, al teast in most metropolitan areas, they 
are primarily a MO youth organization. Mostof their members are in Yeshiva 
high schools At least that is my empirical observation.
    As to who is doing the kiruv work, that's a good question. Maybe we need 
YU to revive the Torah Leadership Seminar program for teens.
    Shabbat Shalom,
    David I. Cohen

To second the motion:

I heard a shiur from Rebbetzin Henkin showing the rishonic sources
that women may issue psak.  Unfortunately, I do not remember the
sources (though I remember being convinced by the shiur).  Can anyone
supply those sources?

--- Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 10/8/99 12:09:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> moshe_feldman@yahoo.com writes:
> 
> << 
>  Second, I just wish to emphasize that it is clear (even according
> to
>  the charedi viewpoint)--as noted in the article--that women can
> issue
>  psak halacha if they are "learned."   >>
> 
> I'd be interested to hear from others if this is really clear.  I
> agree that 
> the statement was made in the article, but I wonder if it was meant
> as a line 
> in the sand (i.e. if they were trained for a decade they would be
> acceptable) 
> or was it a way of saying that we don't have to even think about it
> now  
> since they haven't reached that level but once they reach that
> level, then 
> we'll think if there are other reasons not to accept them. ( is
> this a run on 
> sentence :-))
> 
> SS
> Joel Rich
> 


=====

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At 04:18 PM 10/06/1999 -0400, Micha wrote:

>What dawned on me was that because of this, the line between adjective and
>noun is blurry. For example, "haKel haGadol haGibbor vihaNora". Artscroll
>renders the last three words as adjectives of the first. I originally assumed
>this was a mistake, in particular since the Gaon understands this as a list
>of four terms -- and that this four-ness is critical to his understanding
>of the b'rachah as a whole.
>
>Now I'm inclined to say that pinning down whether "haGadol" is a noun or an
>adjective is artificial. I think the distinction is only important to us as
>speakers of western languages (including modern Hebrew), and is not critical
>to parsing or understanding words in biblical or mishnaic Hebrew.

I don't agree.  In Modern and Classical Hebrew and most Western languages,
but not in English, an adjective can be used as a noun, but it is still
morphologically (in grammatical form) an adjective.  Thus, gadol = great
one, la petite = the little girl (in French, an adjective agreeing in
gender and number with the unexpressed noun).

In Hebrew, the relevant forms are:

gadol:  adjective, great
godel:  noun, size
gdulah:  noun, the characteristic of being great

kadosh:  adjective, holy
kodesh:  noun, degree of holiness
kdushah:  noun, the characteristic of being holy

Obviously, there are other forms of nouns and adjectives as well, but these
are the relevant ones to this discussion.

Thus, moadei kodshekha = the times of Your [supreme] Holiness.

Gut shabes to all,
Arnie

Arnie Kuzmack
kuzmack@cpcug.org

Rabbi Clark wrote:
"...However, I disagree with her implicit suggestion that the
original Mizrachi policy of moving to Israel and building the land is of
a piece with R. Ariel's project of preparing kelim for the Bet
ha-Behirah.  The former was spearheaded by non-messianists, the latter
is conceivable only to someone who considers Bi'at ha-Mashi'ah imminent.
 The same is true, in my opinion, for the course of study in Yeshivat
Ateret Kohanim...."

This is exactly the discussion going on in Israel today:  was the coming to Israel the 
only step we were supposed to take -- or only the first?

It is funny that Rabbi Ariel and Rav Aviner are mentioned on the same side -- as they 
are very much opposed to each other's views, as we know here in Israel <g>.

In any case the next question is "what is immanent"?  For some reason people think that 
the intention is "now" or "in my time".  Sure, that's what we all pray every day, 3 
times a day, does that mean that all the jews are messianists?  If so, what is the 
differentiation?

RZ and followers of Rav Kook's phillosophy believe that Ge'ulah takes time and effort.  
Sure, we hope that it will happen HaYom (as it is stated in the G'marah) but we all 
know that we don't know when Mashiach will come.

What we do know is that there has been a vast change:  Jews are back under self rule in 
Israel.  Jews are relearning laws and phillosophy that has been dormant for over 2,000 
years.  

BTW, I would highly recommend a book I recently read by Rav Sherlo (Rosh Yeshiva of the 
Hesder in Petah Tiquva) on "Torat Eretz Yisrael" in Mishnat HaRav Kook. I think this 
could answer many of your and other people's questions on RK and RZ.

Shavu'a Tov,

Shoshana


 ====================================
Name: Shoshana L. Boublil (nee Skaist)
E-mail: toramada@mail.netvision.net.il
Dte: 09/10/99
Time: 06:51:08 PM , Israel

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