Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 024

Monday, October 4 1999

• SEFER for DM/DM
• Rav and Piyut--New Book on the Rav
• Kri Ktiv
• Gematria in Agaddah--David Nadoff
• SUCCOTH-ETH-ACH
• Gematria vs Grammar---Round 2
• Re: Gematria vs Grammar---Round 2
• The Demise of Mizrachi?
• Re: Neiman-Marcus Cookie Recipe
• sources on hair covering
• dancing on S"T
• cookie story
• Re: kodshecha - kodsh'cha
• Re: Rav and Piyut--New Book on the Rav
• Re: Simchat Torah
• [none]
• Re: Simchat Torah

I racked a few Batay Midrashim in Baltimore over the
holiday until I found what I wanted

The TRMU edition of a Bnay brak tikkun contained an
introduction with rules they claim is due to the RVVH
and to a Sefer
	>MOREH KRIATH HATORAH, R J Katz

11 famous laining tripups are enumerated (ESHAY vs ESHEH 
KATON vs KATAN) etc.

Re DAM this introduction says

	>If HYPHENATED or an ATTRIBUTE it is PATACH
	>Other wise it is KAMATZ
	>With one exception: DM NKI (With Kamatz)

Did anyone ever hear of the above sefer.

For those who don't know the RVVH is the acharon
responsible for our mesorah today. Even Breuer's so
called ALEPPO edition takes the modifications in secondary
accents made by the RVVH

Russell
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Dr Woolf writes
>>>>>>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:48:30 +0200
From: "Dr. Jeffrey R. Woolf" <woolfj@mail.biu.ac.il>
Subject: The Rav zt'l and Piyyut

Since RJH and I sat in many of the same shiurim in which the Rav zt'l
discussed piyyut, I won't deny that he occasionally voiced objections to
this or that piyyut.I was referring to piyyut, per se which he
(especially on Shaharit of Yom Kippur) saw as expressing the
quintessence of the Qedushat HaYom.

Dr. Jeffrey R. Woolf 
Department of Talmud
Bar Ilan University
Ramat Gan, Israel
>>>>>>>>>

Just want to make it clear we are in (complete agreeement). I also
am sure tat Dr Woolf will agree how much of a privelege it was to
hear both the Ravs thoughts and methods.

In passing I just heard (I guess many know) that there is a new
2 volume set out on the Rav which can be purchased from the OU

Russell
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Reuven asks
>>>>>>>>
In todays Daf Yomi Megila 25b there is a mention of kri v'ktiv in 2
places
in the Torah.
It seems to me from the mahalach of the Gemara as well as from the
lashon of the Rach and of the Maharsha on the daf that the change is
from Chazal.

Is this correct?
Are there sources that discuss this topic?

reuven
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Chazal never changed anything in the Torah (it is not allowed).

There are several Minchat Shais documenting this..the most famous
one being those in Tray Asar (Roughly speaking the MS deals with
2 things

a) There are many CUTE drashoth which should NOT therefore be
taken as textual emendations (eg
	>Whoever dreams of sleeping with an engaged women will
	>merit much torah since it says
	>>>Moses commanded us Torah an INHERITANCE ...
	>>>Do not read INHERITANCE but ENGAGED (The hebrew
	words sound allike)

Clearly the Gmarrah should not be taken literally 


b) The so called 18 "emendations of chazal" were not emendations at
all. They were just texts that LOOKED as if CHAZAL had "fixed them"
but in reality they were always this way. The Masortes simply
enumerated them to prevent further error

Russell
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Just a quick follow up on David Nadoffs observations

1) David seems to agree with me that Gematrias are never or
rarely used In halachah (Which is what we are discussing).

2) A 2nd point is that while I can follow other rules (eg I can
ask why a KLL=PRT=KLL is not generalized) there is no known
way to DEALING with Gematira (you can do anything you want)
which amounts to Davids statement that Gematria is used rarely
in Halachah (which is why I cited RSRH who tries to explain away
the few rare cases where it occurs)

3) Regarding its use in Agaddah,  I have tried on My rashi website
to show that most gematrias really have some other solid grammatical
source for their reference and only use gematrias to dress up the agaddah

Let me put it concretely this way. I challenge David or anyone else to
bring a significant number of Agaddahs based on Gematriah that can't
also be explained using Grammar (But then David is agreeing with me
that the real midrash is from the grammar not the gematria?)

RE SHABBATH 70---the gmarrah makes it clear that it is a halachah 
lemoshe misina and just an ashmactha

Russell
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Just some quick answers to Micah

1) Cf Succah 6 and Succah 9 (and Tosafoth Succah 6)
Apparently there are drashoth like MB---SUCCOTH spelled
deficiently delimits a succah within a succah

2) BUT... I referenced my Rashi Is Simple on 
	>I will remember my Convenant with Jacob(YAKOOOV)
Rashi explains that (after a little twisting) that this refers to
	>the FULL EXILIC (=Jacob) experience(and hence
	includes redemption)

So SUCCOTH by definition refers to a BUILDING WITH WALLS
and hence FULL/DEFICIENT "could" (but not necessarily) refer
to the number of walls.

If you look at the above Tosafoth you will see that the defiicent
spelling is taken to refer to BOTH
	>the number of succahs
	>the number of walls
because we have 3 extra words succah.


3) If you look at my Rashi Is SImple website on 
	>Usually (ACH) observe the Shabbath
I show that Rashi/Rambam etc DO NOT disagree on how ACH
delimits. In fact I suggest that 
	>ACH = USUALLY
So every verse with ACH should be translated as USUALLY do such
and such (and hence is semantic not syntactic).
(I give further details in the issue in which I explained all 41 achs)


4) It is news to me that Rabbi Akiva vs Rabbi IShmael is syntactic
vs semantic. Can you bring a source.

RSRH explains ETH as coming from OTH = SIGNS OF and hence
sematincally refers to the EXTENSIONS of an object.

So much for now. More to follow

Russell

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Rabbi B and I are getting closer to WHAT we disagree on (if
anything). Rabbi B writes

>>>>>>>>>>>>>RABBI B'S RESPONSE TO ME<<<<<<<<<<
I (Russell) stated that
 If the verse says 
> 	>her michah and her libationS( plural)
> then it refers to 2 libations (water and oil).
> 

Rabbi B responds

That is another derasha - "niskeihem" as referring to two libations,
distinct from the "mayim" derasha.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>END OF CITATION<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Good. Now to RSRHs point. His point is that

1) He is explaining the Talmudic text that SEEMS to use letter
associations and instead asserts that they really made the 
derash on  the simple plural "libationS".

Such explaining away of gmarrahs and rishonim DO happen
For example the Rav explained the midrash on 32:5
	>IM LAVAN GARTI = TARYAG mitzvoth shamarti
as really coming from the verb GARTI vs YASHAVTI.(Not
from the letter play)

Rav Dr Chaiim Soloveitchick recently pointed out to me that
this comes from the Chizkuni. 

My point is that such explanations of Gmarrahs and rishonim
do happen.

2) RSRH rejects as a method of halachic midrash the use of
"Sums of extra letters that spell words" -- 

Note that Rabbi B cited a midrash halachah that Gematria is
a method of midrash according to some...but NO one holds
that adding extra letters is a method of midrash and even
if SOMEONE DOES it doesn't explain how eg Rabbi Ishmael
learns these things. (In other words at the very least 
Rabbi B should accept RSRH as explaining how Rabbi Ishmael
and many ohers learn nisuch mayim)

LEt me put it this way: There are two methods

METHOD 1 (RSRH and RJH): There is a grammatical plural
and hence 2 libations and the talmud is just expressing this
as a pun 

vs

METHOD 2 (RABBI B) Some method known only to Tannaim
produces the midrash. (Involving gematria)

I must ask what Method 2 accomplishes (besides literalism)
that method 1 (which encourages talmud torah and research
into other singular plurals does not). Note that Method 1
does NOT encourage talmud torah on that MIDRASH...I 
am not going to reserach other SUMS OF EXTRA LETTERS 
because I am not a Tanna and cannot do so. method 1 
encourages research into singular plural (and therefore
is preferred ??).


On a second note Rabbi B cites one source that Gematria
is an accepted method of Midrash. To this I would make
3 responses

a) Even Rabbi B would have to concede that only certain
people hold Gematria is not a method of Midrash; eg Rabbi
Ishamel does not

b) Rabbi B should rejoice that RSRH is explaining HOW
these other people like Rabbi Ishmael learn NISUCH MAYIM

c) Rabbi B 
c1) cites a minority opiinion that Gematria is a midrashic method
c2) concedes that non tanaaim like me can't use it (to free agunoth)

But Rabbi B must also concede

c3) That even non tanaaim like me have the right/obligation to
research and comment on plural/singular inconsistencies (like
	>and their libation S

But then Rabbi B is agreeing with me that RSRH method 
ENCOURAGES talmud torah in non tanaaim like myself 
and the gematria method does not encourage such research.

Thus many superiorities emerge from the grammatical approach


On a final note Rabbi B asks if Rav Hirsch deals with the MASORETH
-MIKRAH controversy in the gmarrah. 

Yes

--according to Rabbanan we go by the kri==Succoth = full spelling
So FULL walls (4 ) are needed

---according to Rab Shimon we go by the KTIV=Succoth=deficient spelling
So DEFICIENT walls (3) are needed.

Again...Rav HIrsch's method encourages other research into full deficient
spellings---the gematria approach does not.

If I had to pick one reason for rejecting the gematria approach it would
be
the lack of encouragement of Talmud torah

Russell
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The Bavli Shabbos 70a may be constued as an asmachta, but you will be very
hard pressed to construe such in the Yerushalmi Shabbos 44a (Vilna
edition, right after the Mishna of the Melachos). 

I do hope you will look there. 

On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Russell J Hendel wrote:

> Rabbi B responds
> 
> That is another derasha - "niskeihem" as referring to two libations,
> distinct from the "mayim" derasha.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>END OF CITATION<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> 
> Good. Now to RSRHs point. His point is that
> 
> 1) He is explaining the Talmudic text that SEEMS to use letter
> associations and instead asserts that they really made the derash on the
> simple plural "libationS". 
> 

At a loss here to follow you!

Are you saying that RSRH asserts that R' Akiva did not make a derosho from
the extra MY"M?

> Such explaining away of gmarrahs and rishonim DO happen For example the
> Rav explained the midrash on 32:5
> 	>IM LAVAN GARTI = TARYAG mitzvoth shamarti as really coming from
> the verb GARTI vs YASHAVTI.(Not from the letter play) 
> 
> Rav Dr Chaiim Soloveitchick recently pointed out to me that this comes
> from the Chizkuni.
>

The Chizkuni says nothing of the kind and is utterly irrelevant, as he
does not even cite the Medrash of "taryag mitzvos shamarti". Of course, I
think you (or, perhaps, RYBS) are utterly incorrect in this instance. 
 
> 2) RSRH rejects as a method of halachic midrash the use of "Sums of
> extra letters that spell words" --
> 
> Note that Rabbi B cited a midrash halachah that Gematria is a method of
> midrash according to some...but NO one holds that adding extra letters
> is a method of midrash and even if SOMEONE DOES it doesn't explain how
> eg Rabbi Ishmael learns these things. (In other words at the very least
> Rabbi B should accept RSRH as explaining how Rabbi Ishmael and many
> ohers learn nisuch mayim) 
> 

Clueless again: Do you and RSRH reject the Gemoros that discuss "yesh em
l'mesorah/yesh em l'mikra"? (As would seem from the following example.)

> --according to Rabbanan we go by the kri==Succoth = full spelling So
> FULL walls (4 ) are needed
> 
> ---according to Rab Shimon we go by the KTIV=Succoth=deficient spelling
> So DEFICIENT walls (3) are needed. 
> 
> Again...Rav HIrsch's method encourages other research into full
> deficient spellings---the gematria approach does not. 
> 
> If I had to pick one reason for rejecting the gematria approach it would
> be the lack of encouragement of Talmud torah
> 

Cute, but highly improbable. That is not the Gemoro's approach in its
shakla v'tarya, in either the Bavli or Yerushalmi (this is written from
memory. You are free to look it up and seek to disprove my recollection).
The Gemara is not employing grammatical and etymological tools as you
claim.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

There was a symposium in the recent issue of Jewish Action on Religious
Zionism (RZ) that was moderatelly interesting, but, in my opinion,
stunningly incomplete. I have a few unordered random comments that may
provoke some discussion here: 

1. Is it not time to re-evaluate RZ based on Rav Kook (RAYK)? In the first
place, the premise that RAYK was a RZ is debatable, but to the extent that
his theology serves as a basis thereto, after all is said and done, his
premise, that Secular Zionism was a precursor, harbinger and first step of
of or towards massive Teshuva, seems to have not been borne out, IMHO
actually disproven, by history. Secular Zionism has generally, it seems,
led to diminished participation in and regard for Yahadus rather than the
reverse.

2. The JA series gave short or no shrift to RZ that once existed in the
persons od almost forgotten individuals like RYY Reines, R' Wolf Gold. R'
Meir Bar Ilan, and later political leaders such as Wahrhaftig and Burg
that are not, to the best of my understandimg, at all of the same cut as
the Schools of RZ that emanate, somewhat indirectly, me'beit midrasho shel
RAYK.

3. Taking that thought further and linking back to the title of this post,
I found it fascinating, to take an example and extrapolate therefrom,
that, just as a "Torah Me'Tzion" RZ Kollel was founded recently in
Detroit, I am told, the local Mizrachi chapter was declared officially
defunct and its remaining funds disbursed.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Shalom,

This story about the lunch at Neiman-Marcus and the charge for the cookie recipe
has been floating around the Internet for at least a dozen years I can remember. It
has been extensively discussed in  alt.folklore.urban. It had been checked out by
several people and the management of Neiman-Marcus deny that this ever happened. So
far, no one has come forward claiming to be the person who supposedly had this
charge on their account. It is believed to be an urban myth.

Shavua Tov,

Alan Cohan
Venice, California

Does anyone have a source (electronic please) for woman's hair covering?  In
paticular who says its men hatorah, who says its derabban, and who (if any)
say that its a minhag.

Thanks in advance.

Ben Waxman

> As Simchas Torah approaches I would like to relate one
> of my pet peeves.  Why is it that there has to be
> endless dancing on the part of Yeshiva Bachurim on
> that day, both at night and especially in the morning?
	I will,  per your request,  ignore most of your letter.  However,  it
surprises me that there is such a limited choice of minyanim in your area
that you cannot escape the bachurim.   In my experience,  there are
several minyanim in which the dancing is more,  shall we say, 
baalebatish for every one dominated by overly exuberant yeshiva bochurim.
 Why not choose one of those?

Gershon

Sorry
The cookie story was sent to this list by mistake
reuven

Someone suggested to me that adjectives -- like "kodsh'cha" -- might not
follow the same rules as do nouns, regarding the sheva mid-phrase, which
changes to a segol at the end of a phrase or sentence. So I kept my eyes
open over Yom Tov, and I came up with these examples, which demonstrate
that the rules are in fact the same:

In Musaf, Mip'nay Chatoaynu:
  "b'vays b'chirasecha", with a segol at phrase-end
  "bays mikdash'cha", with a sheva mid-phrase
  "mipi k'vodecha", with a segol at phrase-end
Birkas Kohanim:
  "am k'doshecha", with a segol at phrase-end
V'zos Hab'racha:
  "ish chasidecha", with a segol at phrase-end

Now, I'll admit that some of the above might really be nouns, but an even
bigger problem is that they are all singular. What I'm really looking for
is a possesive adjective which refers to a *plural* noun, the way "moaday
kodsh'cha" does, because someone had suggested that the segol appears
even mid-phrase because of the plural construction, despite lack of the
yod.

My Mandelkern concordance (pg 1014) lists 19 cases of "kodshecha -
kodsh'cha", and one of them clearly refers to a plural noun: "aray
kadsh'cha hayu midbar", "Your holy cities have become a desert", in
Yeshaya 64:9. The noun is plural, it is mid-phrase, the sheva is used.

Personally, it seems pretty clear to me that the Yom Tov Kiddush should
be pronounced "moaday kodsh'cha" with a sheva, just like we say "shabbas
kodsh'cha" with a sheva on Shabbos.

Some people in shul suggested that the interference caused by the
additional Shabbos phrases in the Yom Tov Kiddush, does cause people to
pause after the phrase "moaday kodshecha", even when those phrases are
skipped, which would justify the segol. Given that there is absolutely no
difference in meaning between the two pronunciations, I suppose everyone
can use whichever fits their phrasing best.

Akiva Miller

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In a message dated 10/3/99 10:32:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
rjhendel@juno.com writes:

<< 
 In passing I just heard (I guess many know) that there is a new
 2 volume set out on the Rav which can be purchased from the OU
 
 Russell
 _____________ >>
Just received my copy. If any of you have ordered it and not received it yet, 
it may be because the ou office is waiting to get the tapes in (for those who 
ordered both). If you call the office and ask nicely, they'll send you the 
books separately.  

I also understand that the next edition of the Bar Ilan CD is due out in the 
US within the next 2 weeks (per TES)

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

PS  The picture of the Rav on the cover of the 1st volume is like a Rorschach 
test.  Was he thinking about a particularly difficult sugya, existential 
loneliness, the state of American orthodoxy.......

BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
> 
> 
> Some baalebatim rebelled and started a special vatikin minyan on Simchat
> Torah.



While we're on the subject...

Simhat Torah is supposed to be about simha, no? It seems to me that
something like this 3 hour minyan is about as anti-simha as you can get
(nothing personal). How can one possibly put any feeling into something
when the whole concept seems to be "let's get it done, I want to go home"?

The Rav of our shul actually came to me yesterday and nudged me to get
more into it. He said I wasn't yotzei if I don't break a sweat. Perhaps I
need to keep another day (a third)?

To address a previous poster's comment on "hundreds of hakafot", we
(sefaradim) are careful that one person should remain at the teva while
the rest circle it during the dancing. I was that person for the first 4
hakafot, since I was holding my sleeping 10-month old son.

Also, each hakafa, _everyone_ stops and says the pesukim and yehi razon
(do Ashkenazim do that, too, or just what's printed on the flags?). Being
a beit k'nesset composed primarily of baalei batim in our thirties, with
most of the kids bar mizva age and younger, we concentrate heavily on the
piyutim, and dance not-so-energetically perhaps, but we definitely don't
discourage anyone from getting into the moment. We were overjoyed when we
were joined by a crowd of Iranian bnei Torah (bochurim from Ner Israel)
who livened things up immensely. They were NOT drunk, nor were they out of
control. But they were energetic like we wish we could be on a more
constant basis with true simhat Torah.

I guess I don't understand the complaints. But then I haven't experienced
a Simhat Torah to complain about. Personally, it sounds like the grumbling
of people who've forgotten that they, too had more energy once upon a
time, and were happy to expend it for a good cause.

And as regards bircat cohanim after kiddush... we did hakafot AFTER musaf.


---sam

Nu, are the neiman-marcus cookies cholov Isroel or cholov stam?

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In a message dated 10/4/99 10:28:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sambo@charm.net 
writes:

<< 
 I guess I don't understand the complaints. But then I haven't experienced
 a Simhat Torah to complain about. Personally, it sounds like the grumbling
 of people who've forgotten that they, too had more energy once upon a
 time, and were happy to expend it for a good cause.
  >>
echad hamarbeh vechad hamamit ublvad sheyecaven libo lashamayim. 

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

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