Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 021

Friday, October 1 1999

• Re: Baltimore / Washington Simhat Beit HaSho'eva
• Re: Baltimore / Washington Simhat Beit HaSho'eva
• re: kodshecha - kodsh'cha
• Ashkenaz and Midrash
• Re: kodshecha - kodsh'cha
• Re: Ashkenaz and Midrash
• green esrog
• [none]
• [none]
• kri v'ktiv
• "Everybody Dance Now!"
• Re: green esrog
• Re: kodshecha - kodsh'cha

Since Sammy won't, I just want to let those who missed this Simchat Beit
Hashoevah know that despite the rain Sammy hosted a very labeidik event. The
Sephardi community of Baltimore is truly a warm, cohesive kehilla and it was
wonderful of Sammy to extend an invitation to us (mostly Ashkenazim) on this
list.  Chazak u'baruch. Ari



Sammy Ominsky wrote:

> Just decided:
>
> I'll be having my annual Simhat Beit Hasho'eva Wednesday night
> September 29 at 7.30 at my house:
>
> ---sam

Ari Z. Zivotofsky wrote:


> Since Sammy won't, 
[...]
>  Chazak u'baruch. Ari


Awww, shucks. You're right, I wouldn't have.

Hazak v'Ematz. I'm glad you could make it, and glad you got home safely.



---sam

In V4#20 Micha wrote: 

>I thought Sepharadim daven in mishnaic Hebrew, and
>are therefore far more likely to say "-ach" instead of "-icha" (e.g.
>"Vitein helkeinu biToratach" instead of "Visein chelkeinu biSorasecha")."

That is correct, but its interesting to note that the great Sepharadi
grammerian, R' Masliah Mazuz, has done away with mishnaic Hebraisms, placing them in parenthesis as alternative
pronunciations, in his excellent sidur m'duyak for Sepharadim and b'nay Edot Hamizrah, Ish Masliah. 

The Ramban (who was born 24 years after the death of Rabbenu Tam) writes
(Chiddushei haRamban on Brachot 11b): :v'achar zman ra'iti talmiday
ha'tzarfatiim makshim v'omrim: b'yadeynu midrash agadah she'kriyat shema
yesh bah rama"ach teyvot".

So we still see the ashkenazi talmidim studying in the sefardi yeshiva
of the Ramban trying to bring in midrash to prove their point.

Josh

david.nadoff@bfkpn.com wrote:



> 
> That is correct, but its interesting to note that the great Sepharadi
> grammerian, R' Masliah Mazuz, has done away with mishnaic Hebraisms, placing them in parenthesis as alternative
> pronunciations, in his excellent sidur m'duyak for Sepharadim and b'nay Edot Hamizrah, Ish Masliah. 
> 


If I may... the siddur Ish Mazliah was (written? compiled?) by Adir Amruzi
based on the teachings of R' Meir Mazuz, which in turn are based on the
writings of his father, Shu"T Ish Mazliah by R' Mazliah, and R' Shaul
Hacohen.

It was pulished after the passing of those two, who are labeled on the
title page as "Kanei Menorah" along with the Rosh Yeshivah (R' Meir).

Yes, he puts the mishnaic "Hebraisms" (I like that word) in parentheses,
but he never says they're wrong. It seems, actually, that he just prefers
the Biblical alternates. I never heard R' Meir say why and didn't ask. I
was not a talmid of his, but was privileged to be in a weekly shiur he
gave on the siddur and dikduk.


---sam

--- BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
> The Ramban (who was born 24 years after the death of Rabbenu Tam)
> writes
> (Chiddushei haRamban on Brachot 11b): :v'achar zman ra'iti talmiday
> ha'tzarfatiim makshim v'omrim: b'yadeynu midrash agadah she'kriyat
> shema
> yesh bah rama"ach teyvot".
> 
> So we still see the ashkenazi talmidim studying in the sefardi
> yeshiva
> of the Ramban trying to bring in midrash to prove their point.

Were they studying in the Ramban's yeshiva?  Your quote states
"ra'iti" not "shamati."  I would think that the Ramban might refer to
collections of Tosafist material as writings of talmiday ha'tarfatim.
 Rabbeinu Yitzchak (Ri) did not write commentaries; rather his
students summarized his shiurim in various collections of Tosafot.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Is there any reason to prefer a yellow esrog over a green?
Might there be those opinions that would prefer a green one?

Ari

>> It was the Meharshal (Tshuvat Meharshal) who stated that Rabbenu Gershom
>> Me'Or haGolah was a disciple of Rav Hai Gaon.

On the other hand in his teshuvot Rabbeny Gershon says that he his
main rebbe was R. Leon (Sir-Leon) - ("shelimadni rov talmudi") and
in general he paskened like R. Leon agaoinst the Geonim of Bavel.

Chag Sameach,
Eli Turkel

Subject: mimetic - Tosafot/gemara

   Just to be contrarian in a recent daf Yomi tosafot
(DH hevan Megilah 23a) points out that "all of France" changed their
minhag from that of Rashi and Rabbenu Tam concerning the maftir
rereading a previous parsha when more than one sefer Torah is used.
Thus, many baale tosafot were willing to change established minhagim
based on their reasoning (in this case not even a Bavli).

2. The gemara in Megillah has a lengthy discission of the number of
aliyot for a taanit. The gemara never suggests - look what is done every
taanit. On the contrary the Gemara attempts to prove the number from a
story with Rav several generations earlier. Again, why not just see
what the contemporary yeshivot did.
My conclusion is that the Gemara was not willing to rely on tradition
but demanded a text.

Moadim Lesimacha,
Eli Turkel

In todays Daf Yomi Megila 25b there is a mention of kri v'ktiv in 2 places
in the Torah.
It seems to me from the mahalach of the Gemara as well as from the
lashon of the Rach and of the Maharsha on the daf that the change is
from Chazal.

Is this correct?
Are there sources that discuss this topic?

reuven

As Simchas Torah approaches I would like to relate one
of my pet peeves.  Why is it that there has to be
endless dancing on the part of Yeshiva Bachurim on
that day, both at night and especially in the morning?
 I, of course, understand the reason for all of this
exuberance, but, personally I think what is really
going on is far more than just pure exuberance over 
the Simcha of the Torah. Sure, in some cases it is
legitimate. The dancing does reflect a tremendous
hislahavus for Toras HaShem.  But I believe that in
many cases it is just a pure and simple hijacking of
the day away from Balei Batim.  What, after all is the
point of all this endless dancing? Many of us "older
folk" do not have the stamina to dance at that level
for such continuously long periods of time so we are
relegated to just stand in the background and wait... 
and wait... and wait... until hakafah aleph ends and
the next hakafa begins. And then we wait again.  Is
there really that much elation on the part of all or
even most of the bachurim dancing?  Which of them
learn torah with Hasmadah Rabbah during the whole
year? Which amongst them learn L'shma all the time? 
Which of them just go to, say... Lakewood,  just to
have it on their resume? How many just take up space
in Lakewood, or a like Yeshiva?  How many of them
dance just to show off?  Further more, much of the
dancing is wild and crazy with some bachurim
impervious to there fellow man's discomfort, bumping
into people and chairs without even realizing it!

Am I cynical?  YES!  I always have been.  Perhaps it
is my tragic flaw but it usually emboldens me to ask
these kinds of questions publicly, opening me up for
criticism,  mostly from my dear wife who thinks I have
a poor attitude about Simchas Torah. 

But is that really true? NO! I used to love the day. 
I couldn't wait to be Mesameach with my Chaverim.  But
over the years, Simchas Torah has evolved from a
beautifully festive day into one of the most draggy
days in Shul of the year.  What a way to end Yom Tov!

Most recently I, and those who are like minded have
taken to getting up early and Davening K'Vasikin on
Simchas Torah.  Like a magical sort of time warp, I
have returned to the days of old... where the dancing
is sincere and warmly expressed by virtually all those
present. I actually am enjoying it again.  Over the
years the Vasikin Minyan on Simchas Torah has
increased to standing room only.  Apparently I am not
the only one who dislikes all that wild dancing on the
part of mostly Yeshiva Bochurim.

Thanks for letting me get it off my chest.  I feel
better now. I now return you to our regularly
scheduled programing.

Feel free to criticize or ignore me if you wish.

HM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

--- "Ari Z. Zivotofsky" <azz@lsr.nei.nih.gov> wrote:
> Is there any reason to prefer a yellow esrog over a
> green?
> Might there be those opinions that would prefer a
> green one?


Although it is kind of late in the game,  An Esrog
Should be yellow.  The reason some prefer "green"
esrogim is that they tend to be fresher and,
therefore, last longer and look nicer.  However, it
should be noted that an esrog that has not begun to
turn yellow and is as green as grass is pasul.

HM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Sadya N. Targum suggested that <<< Perhaps the reason in the kiddush is
much simpler: the words "b'ahava uv'ratzon" which separate "moadei
kodshecha" from "hinchaltanu",are, as it were, a ma'amar hamusgar, and
hence there is a pause after "moadei kodshecha," hence the kamatz (while
those who use "kodsh'cha" do not consider the "b'ahava uv'ratzon" to be
an interruption). >>>

This is a possiblity which I mentioned in my first post, but I now
suspect that it is not a valid answer to this problem. Last night, my
LOR, Rabbi Elazar Meir Teitz of Elizabeth, suggested that I compare not
only the Amidah and Kiddush versions of this Yom Tov phrase, but also
that Shabbos versions. I was very surprised by the results I found.

I looked in ten different siddurim: Artscroll; Birnbaum; Imrei Fi (a
Sefaradi siddur); Ishei Yisrael (Siddur Hagra); Metzudah; Minchat
Yerushalayim; Otzar Hetefilos; the original RCA Shabbat & Festival
siddur; Rinat Yisrael; and Roedelheim.

(Some of those come in several versions; if your text differs from mine,
let me know. There are, of course, many other works which I wish I could
look in, but I don't have, especially Sefaradi or Chabad seforim. If
anyone notices anything interesting in their collections, please post
it.)

In every single one of those ten siddurim, in both the Shabbos and Yom
Tov versions of the Amidah, "kodshecha" is spelled with the segol:

"V'hanchilenu... b'ahavah uv'ratzon Shabbas kodshecha" (with the segol)
and
"V'hanchilenu... b'simchah uv'sasson Moaday kodshecha" (with the segol)

Also, in every single siddur, Shabbos kiddush is spelled not with the
segol, but with the sheva:

"V'Shabbas kodsh'cha b'ahavah uv'ratzon hinchaltanu" (with the sheva)

Yom Tov Kiddush is the only case having variations:

Most say: "U'moaday kodshecha b'simchah uv'sasson hinchaltanu" (with the
segol)
Some say: "U'moaday kodsh'cha b'simchah uv'sasson hinchaltanu" (with the
sheva)

The segol is used by Artscroll, Imrei Fi, Ishei Yisrael, Metzudah,
Minchat Yerushalayim, Otzar Hetefilos, Rinat Yisrael, and the great
majority of the haggados and benchers that I saw.

The sheva appeared only in Birnbaum, the old RCA siddur, Roedelheim, and
the bencher of the Bostoner chassidim.

My conclusion would be that the Shabbos Kiddush proves this word to be
*not* at the end of the phrase, and so just as we use the sheva in
Kiddush on Shabbos, so too we should use the sheva on Yom Tov. The segol
is used only at the end of the phrase, which is done unanimously in the
Amidah.

However, one other possibility does remain. Sadya suggests that because
"moaday" is plural ("holidays of"), this should cause "kodsh'cha" (with
sheva) to take the plural form "kodshecha" (with segol). This suggestion
makes a lot of sense, and it would explain why the Shabbos Kiddush uses
the sheva - because Shabbos is singluar. However, this would demand a yod
after the shin, and this does not appear in any version which I saw.

Akiva Miller

P.S. Thanks also for correcting my "kadshecha" to "kodshecha".


___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]