Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 014

Friday, September 24 1999

• Re: DUI
• Authority of the Bavli
• [none]
• Re: Sukkah under tree
• Women's wear WHERE?
• Re: Women's wear WHERE?
• Re: Three Meals on Shabbat
• Re: Women's wear WHERE?
• Re: Kinnos and Tzimtzum
• Re: Succoh bees: The penultimate solution?
• Re: Succoh bees: The penultimate solution
• Re: piyyutim & history
• Re: Kinnos and Tzimtzum
• Re: Women's wear WHERE?
• Gematria
• Re: Succoh bees: The penultimate solution
• Zemiros and Tzimtzum
• Re: DUI
• Re: Zemiros and Tzimtzum
• Re: Gematria
• Re: Rashi, Bavli

In a message dated 9/24/99 1:58:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
integrity@technologist.com writes:

> with simchat torah just around the corner it's time for ALL of us to load up
>  on some solid p'sakim on just what defines DUI!!!!
>  
See  M"B 669 (17).

A Freilichen YT (Ein Simcha (BZHZ) Eloh Byayin <G>).

Yitzchok Zirkind

This is my first posting here, so I'll suffice with bibliographical
references:

1) Early Ashkenazic poskim viewed the Bavli as a Primus inter Pares and
not the only litmus test for Halakhic truth. This is pointed out (at
length) in I. Ta-shema, Minhag Ashkenaz Haqadmon, ch. I and in A.
Grossman, Hakhme ashkenaz HaRishonim. Both agree with my teacher, Prof
Soloveitchik on this point.

2) The Rav did not oppose piyyut. Indeed he was very opposed to the
deletion of piyyutim in the Birnbaum Mahzor when it was issued.

Hag Sameah.

Jeffrey Woolf
Dept of Talmud
Bar Ilan University

Subject: piyyutim & history

Moshe Feldman writes

>>I wonder whether his son, Dr. Chaim, would agree.  He pointed out in
>>his course that most prominent scholars would compose piyutim, even
>>if those scholars were not particularly adept in the composition of
>>piyutim.  Dr. Chaim said that piyut composing then was like giving a
>>dvar torah today--a rosh yeshiva has to give divrei torah even if
>>that is not his forte; it's expected.  So if non-gifted rabbis in the
>>Middle Ages composed piyutim (presumably) with the expectation that
>>they would be recited, why can't modern day rabbis do that?

Rav Solovetchik and most other poskim/gedolim do not rely on history.
For example Rav Soloveitchik (and many others) were against a separate
day to memorialize the holocaust and felt that only Tisha Ba-av was
aapropraite to remember Jewish disasters.
However, after the disasters of Cheminiski (tach ve-tat) a special
day (sivan 20?) was established as a fast and memorial.

Chag Sameach,
Eli Turkel

Yesterday I wrote that <<< The sun is NEVER directly overhead anywhere
north of the Tropic of Cancer ... This is something which anyone with a
sundial would have known. >>>

Someone pointed out to me that the original poster might have been
insulted by this comment. If so, I apologize. I did not mean to make fun
of any individual's knowledge of these things, but rather, our entire
generation suffers from an *extreme* lack of knowledge of even the
simplest concepts in astronomy. I believe that most people do not
question it when they are taught as children that the sun is directly
overhead at noon, and are genuinely surprised to learn later that this is
not true (in our areas).

We learn that the sun rises in the east, continues to rise upward, and
then descends in the west. In previous generations, any child could tell
you that the sun rises in the east, then travels *southward*, and finally
sets in the west. This is a basic distinction of which many people are
unaware. I myself did not really realize it, until I was in yeshiva and
came across Rav Moshe's teshuva which defined "chatzos hayom" not as the
midpoint between sunrise and sunset, but at the time when the sun is "in
the middle of the south". (Igros Moshe, O"C 1:24)

Akiva Miller

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Richard Wolpoe comments, re Russell Hendel's

> Bottom line: Women should wear a kittle.<<
> 
> FWIW, I 've never seen a woman wear a kittle on Yomim Noraim. I have
> seen that women in the Breuer's Kehillo ware at least SOME white
> garment on YN and sevral don an all-white ensemble...

Um, nobody wants to be the first!!!

In many shuls I've been in, the women often try to wear as much white as
possible.

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu
"Call on God, but row away from the rocks"

On Fri, 24 Sep 1999, Freda B Birnbaum wrote:

> In many shuls I've been in, the women often try to wear as much white as
> possible. 
>

Among Chassidic women, the minhag is to wear a white apron to Shul. I
assume this is in emulation of the men's kittel, with a feminine twist (it
is not an apron used for cooking!). 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 bilk1@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> 	Russel J. Hendel says that the reason for Seudah Shlisit can not
> be Exodus 25:21 where the pasuk uses the word "hayom" (today) three
> times. The Gemara in Shabbas 117(b) says it is. 
> 
> 			bert l kahn

I was not planning on commenting on RRJH's derogation of "word games" in
Chazal, but changed my mind. Look, Chazal, in one of the perspectives,
derive the 39 melachos from a gematria, in one of the prespectives derive
Nisuch Hamayim from extra variant letters, and, I am sure, there are far
more examples that do not come to mind offhand. These are not word games.
It would behoove us, rather than to dismiss them as such and work around
them, to alter our preconceived notions and genuinely try to understand
them (deductively vs. inductively).

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

RYGB wrote:

> > In many shuls I've been in, the women often try to wear as much white as
> > possible. 
>
> Among Chassidic women, the minhag is to wear a white apron to Shul. I
> assume this is in emulation of the men's kittel, with a feminine twist
> (it is not an apron used for cooking!).

And this would be in line with some of the distinctions between men's and
women's shrouds, also; as well as evoking the shroud.

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu
"Call on God, but row away from the rocks"

R' YGB wrote:


> Notwithstanding the comments in the "Nora'os Ha'Rav", based on
> conversations with members of the Chicago branch of the Soloveitchik
> family, I think the reticence to add tefillos (manifest in other ways such
> as not using the shem Hashem when singing zemiros nor in the Mi Shebeirach
> l'Chayalei Tzahal) is more of an expression of Yiras Shomayim than a
> formal halachic objection. This is similar to RYBS's "glorification" of
> tzimtzum in Ish Ha'Halacha - the barriers between Boreh and Nivra are
> there for a reason, and meant to be respected. V'yesh l'ha'arich!


Yesh l'ha'arich indeed. I was at a table not so long ago with R' Nissim 
Yagen. We were singing z'mirot, and one person at the table was persistent
in saying "Kayl" instead of [alef-lamed], and was corrected repeatedly, and
eventually forcefully by R' Yagen.

I was at another Shabbat meal with the same individual more recently, and 
he now says the Shem in the right places. V'yesh l'ha'arich.


---sam

--- Michael.Frankel@dtra.mil wrote:
> A succoh question.  I've been pondering the use of a
> net for some time now
> as my tolerance for sharing my succoh with the
> yellow jackets which swarm in
> my neighborhood has decreased, and as the evil
> %XX!&&** critters themselves
> continue to demonstrate a perverse resourcefulness
> in their ability to
> penetrate 

 i once heard this
> discussed in terms of a chicago
> venue, and that it had been controversial, but I
> know no details. 

I used to use a net when the bee problem here in
Chicago was intolerable.  R. Shmuli Feurst, the Agudah
Dayan and Posek here, and a Talmid Muvhak of R. Moshe,
asked R. Moshe. As I recall, the response was that if
the Bee problem was as bad as he (R. Feurst)had
described it, (literally swarms of bees would
penetrate evry succoh and made it impossible to remain
inside) then, "bidieved" it was permissible to use
"mosquito" netting, provided that the netting holes
were subsantially larger than the actual threading.
The netting should be under the schach and as close to
it as possible and may possibly be considered "Noi
Succoh".  Also,the issue of "Tzillasa merubah al
HaChamasah"  requires that the density of the Schach 
be increased because the threading cancels out that
portion of the schach that it is under. 

I, also, believe that R. Aaron Soloveichik assurs
"mosquitto" netting.

If I recall correctly, RYGB has told me that in his
own personal case he is allergic to bee stings to the
point of anaphylactic shock and therefore his life
could be in danger so that in cases such as his it is
actually prefferable to eat in the house rather than
to risk being stung in the Succah.  

HM
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--- "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> Chicago Venue Details:
> 
> Both Rabbi Soloveichik and Rabbi Fuerst permit the
> use of mosquito
> netting. They rely on the parutz merubeh al haomed
> aspect of the netting
> linked with its bittul to the schach. I do not see
> any reason to be
> machmir, but I should note that I do not use netting
> (for practical
> reasons only) and will sit inside the house when the
> yellow jackets are
> intolerable without compunction.
> 
> On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 Michael.Frankel@dtra.mil wrote:


My previous post was written before I saw this. My
apologies for the repetition.  Are You sur R. Aaron
Matirs this? I seem to remember otherwise.

HM  
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--- Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il> wrote:
> Subject: piyyutim & history
> 
> Moshe Feldman writes
> 
> >>I wonder whether his son, Dr. Chaim, would agree.  He pointed out
<snip>

> Rav Solovetchik and most other poskim/gedolim do not rely on
> history.
> For example Rav Soloveitchik (and many others) were against a
> separate
> day to memorialize the holocaust and felt that only Tisha Ba-av was
> aapropraite to remember Jewish disasters.
> However, after the disasters of Cheminiski (tach ve-tat) a special
> day (sivan 20?) was established as a fast and memorial.
> 

Which harkens back to my postings this past May how we might use from
the Shach's establishment of 20 Sivan as a fast day as a model for
how we should approach the Holocaust.  To quote myself:

<<
[R. Wolpoe wrote:] "After the Seond World War, the Rabbonim of
Hungary rededicated 20 Sivvan to remember the Kedoshim who lost their
lives during that period." 

This past Friday, Dr. Menachem Schmeltzer showed me selichot for the
20th of Sivan printed in Hungary after the Shoah.
He also pointed out (based on a shiur from Rabbi J. J. Schachter; Dr.
Schmeltzer also showed me an article corroborating this) that the
20th of Sivan was first established as a fast by Rabbeinu Tam in the
aftermath of the first Jewish blood libel.  The fast fell into disuse
and was revived in the time of Tach v'Tat.
So, I believe that there is a basis to revive the 20th of Sivan as a
fast day in memory of the kedoshim of the Shoah.>>

Kol tuv,
Moshe
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--- Sammy Ominsky <sambo@charm.net> wrote:
> Yesh l'ha'arich indeed. I was at a table not so long ago with R'
> Nissim 
> Yagen. We were singing z'mirot, and one person at the table was
> persistent
> in saying "Kayl" instead of [alef-lamed], and was corrected
> repeatedly, and
> eventually forcefully by R' Yagen.
> 
> I was at another Shabbat meal with the same individual more
> recently, and 
> he now says the Shem in the right places. V'yesh l'ha'arich.

Please be ma'arich.  Why is it so important to use shem Hashem in
zemirot?

Kol tuv,
Moshe
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--- Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@columbia.edu> wrote:
> And this would be in line with some of the distinctions between
> men's and
> women's shrouds, also; as well as evoking the shroud.
> 

What are differences between men's and women's shrouds?

Kol tuv,
Moshe
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--- "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:

> 
> I was not planning on commenting on RRJH's
> derogation of "word games" in
> Chazal, but changed my mind. Look, Chazal, in one of
> the perspectives,
> derive the 39 melachos from a gematria,
> These are not word games.
> It would behoove us, rather than to dismiss them as
> such and work around
> them, to alter our preconceived notions and
> genuinely try to understand
> them (deductively vs. inductively).

If Gematria is Halacha L'Moshe MiSinai than, of course
I could not have a problem with it. But is that really
the case?  Or, do Chazal, use Gematria as a devise to
prove what they already know, in the same way they
often use psukim to reinforce known Halacha L'Moshe
MiSinai?  Very often the gemorah will bring Psukim to
learn out a Halacha which are not the primary source
of that Halacha, but merely Ranmazim.  Yet the style
of the drasha is the same as tjose halachos which are
directly learned ferom psukim.  

Furthermore in those cases where Gematria is clearly
not those used by Chazal it is often laughable the way
people try to stretch the use of it.  Personally I'm
hard pressed to understand it and it is just too easy
to play these word games. 

When you make up Gematrios, it is similar to the Torah
codes which many have used to "prove" the divinity of
the Torah.  The problem is that now that the
Christians  have learned how to use the Codes and they
have applied their own matracies to "prove" the Torah
origins of Jesus!

HM

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I am pretty sure RAS is mattir, but perhaps I am mistaken, it has been a
while.

While I am allergic to wasp stings, I do not know that it would be
dangerous to be stung - no one knows until it happens! (each time you are
stung it is worse). The point is: Anyone, allergic or not, is pattur is
because of mitzta'eir if they are nervous about the wasps. At night there
are no wasps, and, generally, you are OK for the briefer times you are in
the Sukkah Chol Ha'Mo'ed, so you do not lose out that much.


On Fri, 24 Sep 1999, harry maryles wrote:

> My previous post was written before I saw this. My apologies for the
> repetition.  Are You sur R. Aaron Matirs this? I seem to remember
> otherwise. 
> 
> HM  


YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

On Fri, 24 Sep 1999, Moshe Feldman wrote:

> Please be ma'arich.  Why is it so important to use shem Hashem in
> zemirot? 

I do not know if "important" is the right adjective/adverb. For those who
sincerely see their zemiros as a form of Avodas Hashem, not just a "mood
setter" (significant enough, but, like in a song sung at other occasions, 
not necessarily significant enough to employ shem Hashem), I think it is
obvious that using the shem Hashem enhances the Avodah.

BTW, Lubavitchers do not sing zemiros - I believe that, if at all, they
only use niggunim. I do not recall the reason.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

1. Have you considered letting the priest bestow their blessings during the
shacharit service?
2. Sounds to me that there is some confusion. Simchat Torah is not Purim.
Chag Someach
steve

chaim wrote:

> hillafellow rabbanim..
> no DUI, is not driving under the influence, BUT
> duchenim under the influence!!!
> with simchat torah just around the corner it's time for ALL of us to load up
> on some solid p'sakim on just what defines DUI!!!!
> yes, as we all know in OH 125:38, there is an explicit halacha on just what
> DUI is/is not!!
> to further simply/complicate matters, many of the classical commentators to
> Eruvim 64:a, and OH 99:1-3, try to present their own version of DUI (it's
> common practice to link the halachot for Davening Under the Influence with
> Duchenim Under the Influence).
> To make a long story short, Every Simchat Torah there are young energetic
> yeshiva bochrim in my shul, who by virtue of patrilineal descent (one of the
> few halachot that reform and orthodox agree on), claim a biological/genetic
> link to Moshe Rabbenu's Brother.
> Some skip kiddush and Fast till 4-5 p.m. (musaf time after our lively
> hakafot), so they can mekayem mitzvat "L'baraech et amo yisrael b'ahava"
> le'mehadrim (i.e. without any chasha of DUI.)
> Some just can't resist and make kiddush after the first Hakafa, and claim
> that by the time musaf time comes around they are in the state of "masir
> yeyno", and they duchen (though on occasion I've caught some of them not
> making a 90 degree turn towards the khilla during the B'racah).
> Some come up with all kinds of P'sakim that they heard in their various
> yeshivot:
> ie.:
> 1) grape juice has the same din as wine..and you are technically DUI for 24
> hours (including 8 hours of sleep)..so you got to make a choice.. FAST
> (.re-incarnate Yom Kippur/t'sha b'av.)..and duchen...or make kiddush,  join
> AA or better yet, become a candidate for PFC in the salvation army...
> 2) no matter what you make kiddush on (including a bottle (more than a
> riviit)  of ABSOLUT vodka), by the time you finish dancing 7
> hakafot...you've covered more than a "mil"..so there is no chashash of DUI.
>
> Anyway...It would be great if All of us on the list share with each other
> some SOLID well documented P'sakim of JUST exactly what entails DUI
> (type/amount  of liquor/grape juice, latency time between last drink and
> duchenim time, physical exertion/sleep/time factors etc)..
> also a cute anecdote of the problems you've faced in your shul would help to
> uplift the spirits...
>
> a freilech Yom tov
>
> chaim

Moshe Feldman asked and R' YGB replied:


> > Please be ma'arich.  Why is it so important to use shem Hashem in
> > zemirot? 
> 
> I do not know if "important" is the right adjective/adverb. For those who
> sincerely see their zemiros as a form of Avodas Hashem, not just a "mood
> setter" (significant enough, but, like in a song sung at other occasions, 
> not necessarily significant enough to employ shem Hashem), I think it is
> obvious that using the shem Hashem enhances the Avodah.
> 



Almost exactly what I would have said, had I not been in a meeting.

Though I would have left off the first line, about "important" not being
necessarily the right term. It obviously was/is important enough to Rav
Yagen that he made such a big deal of it. "Ahalelah shem elo[k]im b'shir".

From what I've seen, Ashkenazim rarely sing zemirot with the Shem in them 
anyway, no? 

"Bo batah libi v'ne'ezarti"

U'mishiri Ahodenu.





> BTW, Lubavitchers do not sing zemiros - I believe that, if at all, they
> only use niggunim. I do not recall the reason.


We're having some over tonight. I'll ask. But come to think of it,
whenever we go to their house, I'm the only one singing. I never thought
much of it, I just assumed he didn't feel comfortable with his singing 
voice, being a soft-spoken semi-stutterer anyway.



---sam

In a message dated 9/24/99 10:27:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< 
 If Gematria is Halacha L'Moshe MiSinai than, of course
 I could not have a problem with it. But is that really
 the case?  Or, do Chazal, use Gematria as a devise to
 prove what they already know, in the same way they
 often use psukim to reinforce known Halacha L'Moshe
 MiSinai?  >>
The Maharatz chayot explains drashot chazal of pesukim from nach in this 
manner.

Gmar Tov
Joel

In v4n11, RRW <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com> writes:
: Now this also explains the source of Tosfos's pilpulism, his "hidden agenda" 
: was how best to reconcile the great Bavli with the less documented minhag 
: Ashkenaz.

(Nit: Tosafos is a "they", as in "their 'hidden agenda'". An important point,
because it means that you can't hold T to the same standard of consistancy as
you would a single author.)

I would like to see enough examples of this in order to show that this is a
trend. I, like most of you, have been learning T for a number of years now,
and I thought their agenda is pretty obvious: they want consistancy. The
typical "v'im tomar" is bringing a gemara that appears to be soseir, and
they use pilpul to get a single consistant view of the halachah.

I only noticed one example of rationalizing current practice: T (as well as
Rashi) invoke the Rosh on the number of knots for tzitzis. According to the
gemara, it should be one knot per chulia with perhaps one additional biblical
knot, or each chuliah needs to be between two knots: the range of possibilities
is therefore 7 (min of 7 chulios, 1 knot per chuliah) to 15 (max of 13 chulios,
between knots + 1 knot d'oraisa).

We have 5 as per the gematria (tzitzis + 5 knots + 8 strings = 613) in the
medrash. Both T and R rely on the Rosh who says that chulios are a din in
techeiles, and therefore are a non-issue, leaving us only the medrash to go
with.

But in this case, it's not particularly Ashkenazi. Only the Teimanim follow
the Gemara (via the Rambam, of course). Sephardim also make 5 knots.

The Ari's system (via the Ba'al haTanya) of making 13 chuliah-knots in addition
to 5 double knots probably didn't exist in the era in question.


Also, I'm getting from posters two versions of the theory:

The stronger version: Migration to Ashkenaz was from Israel through Italy,
therefore it's the same core population and the same chain of evolution of
practice.

The weaker version: Enough people came into Ashkenaz via that route to give
Ashkenazi practice more Israeli elements than Sephardi practice has.


Speaking, as RRW does, about the difference between lomdus and practice:

I always thought that the Chazon Ish's shiurim were of the former, not the
latter. The CI is (in general) far too mimetic to think he dismissed the
amount of wine we've been drinking all these years. And, lima'aseh, the kos
he made kiddush on was smaller than a CI revi'is. (Or so legend claims his
daughter, who inherited the kos, found.)

The Bavli, though, was taken to be practical, not just lumdish. See "halachah"
in the Encyclopedia Talmudit. Various rishonim understood key words in the
gemara to indicate whether a shitah was being accepted, but questioned, vs
dismissed. A number of machlokesei rishonim come from differences on this
subject.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 24-Sep-99: Shishi
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 43a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

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