Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 002

Tuesday, September 14 1999

• Who is a Gadol
• Pre-Midnight Selichos - Ramblings
• Re: Pre-Midnight Selichos - Ramblings
• Administrivia: Statistics for volume 3
• Re: Pre-Midnight Selichos - Ramblings
• Re: nusach question
• Two Views on Learning / Tu B'av
• Re: Two Views on Learning / Tu B'av
• Re: Two Views on Learning / Tu B'av (fwd)
• Re: Two Views on Learning / Tu B'av (fwd)
• Yomim Noraim Liturgy - Ramblings
• R' Bechhoffer
• Not you average post (off-off topic)...
• Re:Glatt
• Re: Two Views on Learning / Tu B'av
• who is a gadol--age requirements
• RE: RYGB granting of Mechilah
• RE: Lower Criticism
• Re: RYGB granting of Mechilah
• Informations on Hamodia
• Re: gedolim

Moshe Feldman wrote:

> Carl Scherer [sic] wrote:
> >>I think that one of the requirements for being called a Gadol in 
> one's lifetime is that one attain a certain age... <<
> 
> What about the Shach or the Arizal?

I was referring to modern times. Nearly all our gdolim today are 
senior citizens before they are recognized as gdolim. 

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Gmar Chasima Tova (or Gmar Chatima Tova, depending
on your preference). May you be sealed in 
the books of life, health and happiness.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Subject: Pre-Midnight Selichos...

...continue to proliferate at ever greater rates with ever less
embarassement and ever more publicity each year. A sign of the times. Sad.

YGB<<

Just a few ramblings on this subject:

1) What is the precise Halachic problem in saying Selichos prior to Midnight?
2) Is saying Selichos prior to midnight any bigger an avla than davening after 
the zman - a practice common to many Chassidishe circles?
3) What is the halachically preferred choice
    A) No Selcihos
    B) Selichos in the morning beyichuds
    C) Selichos prior to Midnight with a Minyan?
4) Similarly which is preferable
    A) Selichos in the mroning w/o kavana, very rushed while anxious about 
getting to work on time
    B) Selichos in the evening in a slow relaxed atmosphere with a good deal of 
concentration?
5)  The MB allows for davening maariv before shekio but after plag (and some 
hold EVEN in a tarto desasrei) in order to daven with a minyan.  IOW the tarto 
desasrei is only ossur beychidus, but the tircho of gathering up a separate 
minyan overrides this concern.  Would this kulo apply for Selichos (see point #3
above).

There is a story re: R. Nachmon of Breslov that someone came to him re: Tikkun 
chatzos that he couldn't get up at Chatzos.  R. Nachman told him that for him, 
3:00 Am was chatzos (or at least its equivlent).  IOW, R Nachman seemed to be 
justifying or rationalizing a subjective time requirment for certain tefillos, 
although one might say that tefillas shmone esrai is a big extrapolation as 
opposed to tikkun chatzos.  nevertheless, isn't selichos a minhag and not a dino
degmoro and therefore subject to minhog?  

Rich Wolpoe


   

On Mon, 13 Sep 1999 richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> 1) What is the precise Halachic problem in saying Selichos prior to Midnight?

None.

> 2) Is saying Selichos prior to midnight any bigger an avla than davening
> after the zman - a practice common to many Chassidishe circles? 

It is less of an avla.

> 3) What is the halachically preferred choice
>     A) No Selcihos
>     B) Selichos in the morning beyichuds
>     C) Selichos prior to Midnight with a Minyan?

Not sure.

> 4) Similarly which is preferable

>     A) Selichos in the mroning w/o kavana, very rushed while anxious
> about getting to work on time

>     B) Selichos in the evening in a slow relaxed atmosphere with a good
> deal of concentration? 

A)

I say this even about the following schedule I saw posted for a night
selichos service:

9:30 Ma'ariv
9:45 Shiur on the evening's Selichos
10:00 Selichos

> 5)  The MB allows for davening maariv before shekio but after plag (and
> some hold EVEN in a tarto desasrei) in order to daven with a minyan. 
> IOW the tarto desasrei is only ossur beychidus, but the tircho of
> gathering up a separate minyan overrides this concern.  Would this kulo
> apply for Selichos (see point #3 above). 

No.

> There is a story re: R. Nachmon of Breslov that someone came to him re:
> Tikkun chatzos that he couldn't get up at Chatzos.  R. Nachman told him
> that for him, 3:00 Am was chatzos (or at least its equivlent).  IOW, R
> Nachman seemed to be justifying or rationalizing a subjective time

I guess Breslover Chassidim might use the story as precedent.

> requirment for certain tefillos, although one might say that tefillas
> shmone esrai is a big extrapolation as opposed to tikkun chatzos. 
> nevertheless, isn't selichos a minhag and not a dino degmoro and
> therefore subject to minhog? 

Yes.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Volume 3 ran from Nissan - Ellul 5759. It included 176 days, of which 121 were
chol.

Volume 3 contained:
207 digests = 1.18 per day = 1.71 per chol
3033 emails = 17.23 per day = 25 per chol

We currently have 262 members altogether (digest: 19, individual: 243).
130 chaveirim contributed.
90% of the emails were written by 44 people,
80% by 26 people,
50% by 7 people,
22% by two people (!).

To put it in the terms I showed for volume 2:
            # users who posted at least that #
# of posts      in volume 2     in volume 3
         1              127             130
         3               81              87
        10               42              51
        50               16              15
       100                9               6

In short, it looks like fewer posts from people who contribute rarely as well
as less domination by a few regulars. (With the exception of 2 people. <grin>)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 13-Sep-99: Levi, Ha'Azinu
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 37b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Nefesh Hachaim I 23

Rich Wolpoe wondered:

> Just a few ramblings on this subject:
> 
> 1) What is the precise Halachic problem in saying Selichos prior to Midnight?

I don't know.


> 2) Is saying Selichos prior to midnight any bigger an avla than davening after 
> the zman - a practice common to many Chassidishe circles?


Funny, I learned just this morning that (at least according to R' Ovadiah
Yosef) if one is praying after the z'man, one would not say p'sukei
d'zimra (or most of it anyway), as they have the same z'man as tephilah
itself. Again, as usual, I'm at work, so no sources handy.


> 3) What is the halachically preferred choice
>     A) No Selcihos
>     B) Selichos in the morning beyichuds
>     C) Selichos prior to Midnight with a Minyan?


For sepharadim, at least, option (B) would be the only choice.


> 4) Similarly which is preferable
>     A) Selichos in the mroning w/o kavana, very rushed while anxious about 
> getting to work on time
>     B) Selichos in the evening in a slow relaxed atmosphere with a good deal of 
> concentration?


Why not start early enough in the morning that there need be no rush?
We've been starting selihot @5.30 for the past month, and we're always
done by 7.15. Today being the exception, when we finished @7.35 because of
the ta'anit. And those who had to, left. One after hazarat amidah, and
another after keri'at hatorah.




> There is a story re: R. Nachmon of Breslov that someone came to him re: Tikkun 
> chatzos that he couldn't get up at Chatzos.  R. Nachman told him that for him, 
> 3:00 Am was chatzos (or at least its equivlent).  IOW, R Nachman seemed to be 
> justifying or rationalizing a subjective time requirment for certain tefillos, 
> although one might say that tefillas shmone esrai is a big extrapolation as 
> opposed to tikkun chatzos.  nevertheless, isn't selichos a minhag and not a dino
> degmoro and therefore subject to minhog?  
> 


Interesting. Do Ashkenazim say Tikkun Hasot ONLY at hasot? We hold that it
can be said any time AFTER hasot, until morning.


---SAm

Not at all vis-a-vis Mincha.  Musaf is another story.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Avram_Sacks@cch.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 12:04 PM
Subject: nusach question


> This also is a little late but I may be davening mincha on shabbat Rosh
Hashana
> as the shaliach tzibur.  To what extent, if any, is the nusach of shabbat
mincha
> used in place of the nusach for Rosh Hashana?
>
> file://Avi
> Avram Sacks
> Chicago, IL
>
>
>

Ta'anis 31a (somewhat topical for those learning daf) ties the celebration
of Tu b'Av to its being (among other things) day they stop cutting wood for
the Beis haMikdash. I noticed the following in Ohr Samayach's mailing for
this week.

According to R' Gershom, the celebration is because the woodcutters could now
return to full-time learning.

The Nemukei Yoseif sees it as a celebration for completing the mitzvah. The
Ramah (Y"D 246:26) gives this as a makor for the concept of siyum.

This machlokes reminded me of our earlier comments about the differences
between the Chassidish and Misnagdish attitudes about learning and Yir'as
Shamayim. R' Gershom shows up as a proto-Litvak, seeing woodcutting for
korbanos as a necessary but lamentable distraction from the ikkar avodas
Hashem -- Learning. The Rama, OTOH, is extrapolating how to act when you're
done learning from the avodah of the mizvei'ach.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 13-Sep-99: Levi, Ha'Azinu
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 37b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Nefesh Hachaim I 23

I'm don't have my gemora with me but I'm pretty sure that Rashi(not in Taanit) gives the reason of having completed a long and arduous mitzvah. Also doesn't the gemora in taanit say that from here(that time when the days got shorter) on one who doesn't increase his learning is punished(implication to me was that up to that point it's not the case)

Gmar Chatima Tova
Joel Rich
In a message dated Mon, 13 Sep 1999  2:50:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) writes:

> Ta'anis 31a (somewhat topical for those learning daf) ties the celebration
> of Tu b'Av to its being (among other things) day they stop cutting wood for
> the Beis haMikdash. I noticed the following in Ohr Samayach's mailing for
> this week.
> 
> According to R' Gershom, the celebration is because the woodcutters could now
> return to full-time learning.
> 
> The Nemukei Yoseif sees it as a celebration for completing the mitzvah. The
> Ramah (Y"D 246:26) gives this as a makor for the concept of siyum.
> 
> This machlokes reminded me of our earlier comments about the differences
> between the Chassidish and Misnagdish attitudes about learning and Yir'as
> Shamayim. R' Gershom shows up as a proto-Litvak, seeing woodcutting for
> korbanos as a necessary but lamentable distraction from the ikkar avodas
> Hashem -- Learning. The Rama, OTOH, is extrapolating how to act when you're
> done learning from the avodah of the mizvei'ach.
> 
> -mi
> 
> -- 
> Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 13-Sep-99: Levi, Ha'Azinu
> micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
> http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 37b
> For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Nefesh Hachaim I 23

Joel Rich writes:
: I'm don't have my gemora with me but I'm pretty sure that Rashi (not in
: Taanit) gives the reason of having completed a long and arduous mitzvah.

This is much like what Ohr Samayach's "OhrNet" quoted from the Nemukei Yoseif.
Perhaps they just missed the Rashi you refer to since it's not on the page.

: Also doesn't the gemora in taanit say that from here (that time when the
: days got shorter) on one who doesn't increase his learning is punished
: (implication to me was that up to that point it's not the case)

I don't see this implication. To me the statement is merely that as quitting
time for farmers (roughly sunset) got earlier than any reasonable bed-time,
we'd expect the farmer to use that extra time for learning.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 13-Sep-99: Levi, Ha'Azinu
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 37b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Nefesh Hachaim I 23

On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Micha Berger wrote:

> Joel Rich writes:
> : I'm don't have my gemora with me but I'm pretty sure that Rashi (not in
> : Taanit) gives the reason of having completed a long and arduous mitzvah.
> 
> This is much like what Ohr Samayach's "OhrNet" quoted from the Nemukei
> Yoseif.  Perhaps they just missed the Rashi you refer to since it's not
> on the page. 
> 

Isn't Ta'anis one of the mesechtos in which they say Rashi isn't Rashi?

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Rambling questions wrt the season:

1) We refrain from tekias reshus on erev RH in order to be mafsik.  etc.  Why 
not blow on Erev RH when it falls out on erev Shabbos, since in this case 
Shabbos itself would be mafsik?

2) We refrain from saying Kesivo vaChasimo Tova after RH and switch to Gmar 
Chasimo Tova.  Yet in the tefillos, we say kosveinu up until ne'ilo and only 
then change to chosmeinu.

3) Why are reshuyos for the Shatz said bekol?  As private petitions shouldn't 
they be said belachash?

4) We omit Ovinu Malkunei on Shabbos and on Erev YK. If the reason is that it 
resembles the bakkoshos in Shmoneh Esrai, why not omit it on Yom Tov too?  And 
why not say them on Erev YK?

5) If the Shevorim-Teruoh combination is considered one of 3 possible forms of 
Teruoh, how come it is counted as 2 notes each legabei 100 and not as 1 note 
each?



Gmar Tov,
Rich Wolpoe

Sorry to the general public for the private post on the list...

R' YGB,

I had a mail problem just now, and lost your fax #. If you would be so
kind...?

Thank you.


---sam
( mailto:sambo@charm.net )

....But, nevertheless.

My 486 systems (desktop and laptop) are dying. If anyone has a used
Pentium they might consider selling for a nominal amount, or, perhaps a
donation as a tax write-off (or know a lead), please let me know!

Thanks!

Gmar Tov,

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

The following has been troubling me, and since the issue of glatt has been
raised , I present the following:

The Chasam Sofer in YD 39 discusses the basis for the minhag of the
shochtim to peel off ("liklof") the adhesions and test the lung (for holes)
in warm water.

In the end of the responsa, he says that the peeling of adhesions, if done
by an expert and G-d fearing shochet, then Yochlu anavim vyisbau - (which
seems to mean no problem). Then his next words are "however, Shomer nafsho
yirchak" (one who cares about his soul will stay away) from anything like
this.

Is this not a contradiction? What is the meaning of Yochlu anavim in this
context? Only those following the ikkar hadin? If I'm not mistaken, it is
used in modern colloquial mashgichim language as meaning no problem even
for the  stringent.

Gmar Chasima Tova,

Avraham

 

----------
>

In a message dated 9/13/99 3:01:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Joelirich@aol.com writes:

<< 
 I'm don't have my gemora with me but I'm pretty sure that Rashi(not in 
Taanit) gives the reason of having completed a long and arduous mitzvah. >>

The Rashi is in Bava Batra 121:  - "voto yom shepasku hayu smaichim lfi 
shboto yom hayu mishalmim mitzvah gedola cazot"

Gmar tov
Joel Rich

I see the simchah of the New Year has made us forget the simchah of
Passover (Good, because we aren't suppose to mingle simchas).

However when Passover comes around we will remind ourselves of
the Rabbi Eliezer episode (who was only a teenager when he took
head of the Sanhedrin).

I personally think this conversation would be more productive is it
focused on CRITERIA for evaluating the AMKUS of various DIVRAY
TORAH and PSAK

Russell Hendel
http://www.shamash.org/rashi/
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RYGB's recent giving of mechilah reminds me of a (personal) problem
I have when people ask me BLANKET mechilah. I usually respond 
that
 >>I don't believe in blanket mechilah unless you know of something
>>specific you have done to me.

I am also reminded of the commercial sales principle that ACQUISITION
(KINYAN) requires specificity 
--(eg People cannot acquire things not yet in existence or
-- people cannot acquire eg unspecified portions of a field or eg 
--people cannot be guaranteers for an unspecified loan).

Does blanket mechilah therefore have any meaning?

Russell
PS This postings question was ONLY triggered off by RYGB and has
no bearing on him.
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REsponding to Moshe,Micah and Shalom I would say that problems like 
	>>Ruel vs Duel
	>>Chnicauv
can be resolved WITHOUT
	--reference to Divine authorship
	--invokation of mystical doctrines.

What I have tried to do on my Rashi is SImple list is show that the 
use of simple lists can resolve most of these problems and shed 
unambiguous light on meaning. Many times the Drash ends us
becoming the Pshat. Rashi always ends up being Pshat though
the form he expresses this Pshat in may be mnemonical.

I disagree with Shalom Carmi about two approaches to Drash.
There is only one approach to Drash/Pshat. Pshat is that which
emanates form solid lists backing up grammatical patterns. Using
this single principe it is possible to derive all halachik drashoth and
show they are pshat (Or show they are asmachtahs for derabanans).
It is irrelevant whether Chazal knew the Drashoth or not--they can
all be derived.

I strongly disagree with Shalom that

>>. There is enough evidence from within our tradition (i.e. medieval
>>manuscripts and statements in Hazal and rishonim) to establish
uncertainty
>>about minor details in the transmission of the text. One may also wish
to

We may have doubts about DCH, VAYHI, and a few dozen makafs but other
than that I don't know of any doubts and as I have said many times errors
of
a few bytes per million should not be called doubt.


The reason lower criticism appeals to some
people (or appears to have substance) is because most people
have not studied the Bible using lists and checking up on things

Those who want to can browse my website at 
http://www.shamash.org/rashi/

Those who want to can ask specific questions by which I
will illustrate what I do.

(Those who wish to continue to ignore me may also do so--what bothers
me however is people assert all types of things about Biblical texts
without
having ANY examples to back them up).

With Bewilderment
Russell Hendel; Phd ASA
Moderator rashi Is simple
http://www.shamash.org/rashi/
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Russell J Hendel wrote:

> RYGB's recent giving of mechilah reminds me of a (personal) problem
> I have when people ask me BLANKET mechilah. I usually respond
> that
>  >>I don't believe in blanket mechilah unless you know of something
> >>specific you have done to me.
>

I read this e-mail a few minutes after the strangest phone call. A
teen-age girl from my former shul whom I've known all of her life but
probably had not spoken with more than once or twice called and asked for
mechilah. I told her that I did not think she had done anything that
required mechilah from me. She began to cry audibly and said "I said
loshon horah about you."  gct
steve

Shalom and Shana Tova to all

I recently read an article which quotes Hamodia (a weekly chareidi
newspaper).

I don't know it (I'm a french citzen)

May someone help me - about the fax number or the e-mail

Thank you by advance

Shlomo Ouaknine

RDE wrote:
>>  But as the Amshinover Rebbe told a friend of mine "The Moreh
>>  D'Asrah disappeared with the telephone and fax machine."  A Rav can not 
>> compete with the Igros Moshe or even with Rav Shimon Eider or Artscroll. 

The concern I have with relying on the telephone and the fax machine is
that they are lousy instruments (as is the queue round the block) for
genuine psak.  In a previous part of this thread, we were discussing
having a Rav who knew you so well that he could tailor suggested
improvements specifically for you.

Psak by fax is the opposite extreme.  That is, it can work very well
when you have an extremely intricate lomdishe shiala - but let's face
it, you have to have a pretty high level of learning to be able to even
ask one of those.  

Many shialas, to the extent that the question can be stated in simple
terms, can often be answered reasonably simply.  The difficult part is
finding out all the details of the question.  That is, as has often been
pointed out, while you as a layperson might think that two situations
are the same, there are often factors, that you might think are
irrelevant, that influence the answer, and therefore need to be stated
in the question.  

Working out the existance of such factors is extremely difficult where:

a) you are not talking to the person (especially in the case of a fax
where there is no opportunity all all for probing a bit deeper);

b) if you are talking to them, you are missing the visual cues (eg by
telephone) (there are reasons why the halacha places restrictions on the
blind being judges); or 

c) even if you are talking to them, you can only give them X minutes,
because otherwise it would not be fair to all the other people who have
been standing there since the early hours of the morning waiting for
their turn.

This is no matter how great or charasmatic the person is.

The matter is further complicated by the fact that, unable to cope with
open house, naturally such people end up being protected by others who
will only let certain questions through, and may only return certain
answers.  And in some cases that means that the question goes through
half a dozen people before it arrives at the gadol in question.  For
sure all of the particular circumstances of the questioner and the
question get lost in such situations, not to mention that the answer may
not be relayed accurately.

And I wonder whether I am alone in having encountered/heard a number of
stories about inappropriate psak from one of the renowned gedolim.  RDE
is aware of one case, which involved a friend of mine (he was not the
questioner, but another party on whom the psak inpacted, who, as is
often the case in such a situation, had no opportunity to give his side
of the story), where I actually had RDE check, and apparently the gadol
in question never gave the psak he is alleged to have given and which
impacted on my friend.  That means that, somewhere in the chain through
which the question was sent, either the story was so distorted that the
gadol could not recognise the case when put to him another way, or the
question never really reached him.  Either of which must be a matter of
concern in and of itself.

In other cases of which I am aware, there was no question that the
question and answer were given, but anybody who has any real knowledge
of the questioner is led to suspect that the full impact of what was
being asked, or the world which the questioner lives in and comes from
was completely missed (or not conveyed, or not capable of being
conveyed).

I am not sure solution is - because certainly the fax and the telephone
has suceeded in undermining the role of the local rabbi - or perhaps it
would be fairer to say that access, coupled with a willingness of those
so regarded to undermine his authority (if they insisted to every
questioner that they go to their local rabbi at the first instance, then
presumably they would do so - else how did Moshe, after following
Yisro's advice, pursuade the people that he was no longer available to
everybody?) More than that, the general accessibility of text means that
a lay person can learn enough so that the answers of the local rabbi are
no longer sufficient - so there has been and undermining at the level.

I don't know what the answer is

Gmar tov

Chana

-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

*******************


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