Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 157

Monday, August 9 1999

• The Satmar Rebbe
• Re: The Satmar Rebbe
• Wishful thinking
• Re: Flood -- allegorization , knowledge, and ChaZaL
• Munkacs: Rabbi Teichtal & Rabbi Rabinovitch
• Re: R' Aharon is ill

From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>
Subject: The Satmar Rebbe zt'l

"Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer" wrote
Subject: Re: Munkacs and Satmar

On Thu, 5 Aug 1999, David Glasner wrote:

.... let me just ask you whether you would characterize the relations
between the
> Satmarer Rebbe and his nephew and protégé, the Klausenburger Rebbe,
> after the latter saw fit to establish a settlement for his followers
in
> the territory controlled by the Zionist entity as cordial?
>
I really have no idea. It is said that they traded curses, but wasn't
that
common in the Old Country already?


I have heard from people close to the Satmar Rebbe, that he never cursed
another Jew
(probably excepting those individuals that all of us curse 3 times daily
in the Tefilo of
V'Lamalshinim). If you have proof to the contrary, please present it.
And, really,  was it so common for rabbonim in the old country to "trade
curses"?
It sounds extremely derogatory and flippant to write this way about our
earlier
gedolim.

BTW the late Satmar Rebbe himself established Kiryas Yoel in Bnei Brak
(possibly
even before the Klausenburger rebbe established Kiryas Sanz?) and the
current rebbe
established a Shikun in Jerusalem some years ago.)

Finally and BTW again, today Sunday 26 Av is the Yorzeit of the late
Satmar Rebbe
zt'l. Zechuso yogen oleinu and may all of us  merit Yeshuos and Refuos
in his Zechus.

S B Abeles

On Sun, 8 Aug 1999, SBA wrote:

> I have heard from people close to the Satmar Rebbe, that he never cursed
> another Jew (probably excepting those individuals that all of us curse 3
> times daily in the Tefilo of V'Lamalshinim). If you have proof to the
> contrary, please present it.  And, really, was it so common for rabbonim
> in the old country to "trade curses"?  It sounds extremely derogatory
> and flippant to write this way about our earlier gedolim. 
> 

I have no proof, and certainly did not mean it to be derogatory, as that
would be surely b'geder mis'aber al riv lo lo, and worse. However, the
first time I heard about the feud between Satmar and Klausenberg I was
told that each of the parties involved bestowed a negative predection (let
us say the word "curse" is too harsh, but that is what I was told) on the
other party. I was also told what they were, but will forbear from
repeating them lest RSBA think I mean to say something negative, which,
c"v I should do!

As to the "Old country" remark, my impression is that in Hungary and its
environs the "eish lehava" of kana'us le'shem shomayim was far more
widespread than in the other areas of Jewish habitation of the world.
Perhaps a slight anti-Hungarian bias is betrayed by the remark, for which
I apologize! I would appreciate rebuttals of my preconceived notions, if
they exist, as if indeed I am wrong, I am happy to be corrected. 

> BTW the late Satmar Rebbe himself established Kiryas Yoel in Bnei Brak
> (possibly even before the Klausenburger rebbe established Kiryas Sanz?)
> and the current rebbe established a Shikun in Jerusalem some years ago.) 
> 

What are we to make of this?

> Finally and BTW again, today Sunday 26 Av is the Yorzeit of the late
> Satmar Rebbe zt'l. Zechuso yogen oleinu and may all of us merit Yeshuos
> and Refuos in his Zechus. 
>

This is certainly the case. It behooves all Ovdei Hashem to respect
Gedolim and Tzadikkim of all streams, even if they disagree with their
hashkofos. It would be most wonderful if on the respective day in Elul we
would also write:

"Today... is the Yotzeit of the late Rav Kook zt'l. Zechuso yogen oleinu
and may all of us merit Refuos in his Zechus."

(From one who is not an adherent of either the Satmar Rebbe's or Rav
Kook's Schools of Hashkofos...)

A Gut Voch,
YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Concerning the understanding of the "true" position of various gedolim no
longer able to clarify themselves, Reb Daniel Eidensohn says (V3 #156):

	"one needs to disentangle tactical versus ideological rhetoric"

I personally have serious reservations about this notion (based on the
intellectual honesty that I feel is required of all of us, especially
gedolim) but, if it indeed represents reality, my reservations are
pointless. However, even if we accept this analysis, it should be applied
symmetrically. Reb Daniel cites the example:

	"a number of gedolim associated with the Aguda agreed (agree) in
essence with the anti-	Zionist hashkofa - but for tactical reasons did (do)
not express it. "

Given the "entanglement between tactical and ideological rhetoric" how do we
know what these gedolim "really" thought and what they were just saying (or
not saying) for tactical reasons? Unless they have spelled it out
explicitly, we can't know. Of course, each side will claim that the gadol
"really" believed the side sympathetic to its own cause, but that proves
nothing. To use a analogy from current politics (lehavdil), what does Yasser
Arafat "really" believe - what he says to the crowds in Gaza or what he says
to Clinton?

Saul Stokar

I would like to "partition" the question of ChaZaL and "Scientific
Knowledge".  Seems to me that there are two possibilities where this
matter can arise:

A. ChaZaL make a statement that appears to be contradicted by current
scientific knowledge.  The discussion regarding parthenogenesis or medical
remeides are examples of THAT.  Seems to me that the responese involve:
(a) ChaZaL were formulating concepts based upon the scientifc knowledge of
the time nad/or (b) Nishtanu Teva'im...  An interesting example of this
may also be how the RaMBaN looks at the promise regarding the Rainbow
since it soulnds as if the Rainbow had JUST been created when it seems
that ANYONE can generate a rainbow...  The RamBaN actually 
"re-interprets" the verse(s) involved -- however, I recall Prof. Perez
Posen once mentioned to us (at the end of the semster in his Mechanics
Class) -- that maybe G-d actually changed the index of refraction such
that before the time of NOach, there were actually NO rainbows.... 

B. ChaZaL make a statement that appears to be contradicted by the fact
that the statement creates scientific "problems" -- the example of the
Mabul being that we cannot find any "traces" of such an event -- and if it
really happened, why woudl G-d hide it from us?  May be usedul to keep
these two different areas better differentiated....

--Zvi

From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>
Subject: Munkacs: Rabbi Teichtal & Rabbi Rabinovitch

"Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer"  wrote:
Subject: Re: MUNKACS: Sefer Em Habonim Semecho

On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, SBA wrote:

...> Sadly, Rabbi Teichtal, at the time of writing EHS was in a state of
> anxiety and depression having gone through several years of terrible
> deprivation and suffering - according to the short biographies written

> by his son in the new editions of Teshuvos Mishneh Sochir (Machon
> Jerusalem 1987) and Em Habonim Semecho (Pri Haaretz 1983)

>>This argument, however, I tend to doubt. It is prevalent in many
circles
to dismiss a person's writings at some stage based on his state of
mind.<<

I was merely quoting R' Teichtal's son who most definitely has no
'kanous' in him.
But there may be some truth in it as R' Teichtal seems to have made a
180 degree turn from his (personal) earlier views about Zionism
as published in sefer Tikkun Olam.

>>I believe that the Minchas Elazar's son-in-law, who became somewhat
more
"Zionistic" and had a shtiebel in Petach Tikva is also dismissed in a
similar fashion.<<

The ME's son-in-law Rabbi Boruch Rabinbowitz (who was niftar last year)
was never considered to have
his father in law's views (which naturally disappointed some chassidim
after he became rebbe).  After
much suffering he escaped Europe and spent some time in Eretz Yisroel
when he moved to Brazil where
he served as a rav as well as attending college(!) (not exactly the
Munkatcher derech...). He eventually
returned to Israel and was appointed Rav Rashi of Cholon until his
retirement when he opened a shtiebel
in Petach Tikvah. So he had no need to be "chozer bo" - as he never
espoused the views of his father-in-
law.

SBA

I spoke this evening with Rav Eliyahu and he told me that his father was still
hospitalized and they are continuing to run some tests. He hopes to be released
before shabbat.
Hamakom yerapei osau besouch shaar choleh yisroel.

Micha Berger wrote:

> I was sent an email asking that we daven for haRav Aharon ben Pesha
> Soloveitchik.
>
> I'd appreciate someone letting us know as soon as they find out that the
> tephillos have been answered. TIA.
>
> Hamakom yirapei oso bisoch sh'ar cholei Yisrael,
> -mi
>
> --
> Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  4-Aug-99: Revi'i, Re'eh
> micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H O"Ch 347:5-11
> http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 17b
> For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-I 11

*********************


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