Avodah Mailing List
Volume 03 : Number 132
Wednesday, July 21 1999
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:18:52 +0200
From: "Shlomo Godick" <shlomog@mehish.co.il>
Subject: re: Non lyrical music
Shaul Weinreb wrote: <<
I also lament the decline of old fashioned chassidishe
neginah, and I am not too pleased with the modern "chassidic" music.
However, I strongly disagree with Reb Shlomo's words. The old rebbehs
routinely borrowed from popular Polish, Russian and German styles of music,
sometimes borrowing whole tunes (many niggunim actually have elaborate
traditions relating the shepard who was singing this tune or the drunk who
was singing another). >>
I have no objection to borrowing whole tunes from non-Jewish and/or
secular contexts per se. I believe it was on this list that someone
pointed
out that Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach z"l was inspired by pre-Renaissance music,
and I am an avid fan of his music. Any musical tune which evinces
emotional and spiritual sensitivity is a worthy candidate for "redemption"
by inclusion in the Jewish musical repertoire.
<< I don't think the atmosphere of a tavern in Poland
was much more holy than Janis whatever his name was. >>
If a tavern tune was "redeemed" as a Jewish niggun, it was not because
it evoked the atmosphere of the tavern. Rather, in spite of its origins,
the tune contained universal, human motifs (e.g., a broken heart, selfless
devotion to another, camaraderie, pain of separation or emotional
distance, yearning for something better, and other sensitive
human expressions) which could be harnessed to the Jewish soul's
longing for his Creator. I doubt if even your esteemed great-grandfather
could make "One hundred bottles of beer on the wall"
into a Jewish niggun! Al achas kama v'kama music which was
intended to speak totally to the self-serving, egoistic, hedonistic
side of man, to the exclusion of his spiritual dimensions.
<< HOWEVER, my personal objection to many of the modern tunes is that they
are not singable by the average person, they are written to entertain
(which, in my opinion, some of them do quite well) but they are not written
to be sung, and singing is the essence and the core of the aliyah that a
person is supposed to achieve through neginah. >>
Precisely. And there are also those which, even if singable, have melodies
which bear no relation whatsoever to their lyrics. "Baruch Ha-Gever"
comes to mind as a striking example of a total lack of correlation
between words and tune. Its words are powerful and uplifting, its
music silly and frivolous.
>let it suffice to
>say that ANY niggun which brings about simcha can be used to arouse one's
>soul and bring one closer to Hashem.
Agreed. This is indeed the bottom line. But as rebbeim are fond
of pointing out on Purim and on Simchas Torah, simcha is not hol'lus.
Kol tuv,
Shlomo Godick
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 07:46:59 EDT
From: C1A1Brown@aol.com
Subject: Re: mitzvas T"T
>>>Does anyone know of any sources on the "relative value scale" for the
kiyum
of mitzvat talmud tora - i.e. is it a function of the time spent, effort
expended , chidushim produced, other mitzvot enabled<<<
See the Birchas Shmuel at the end of Kiddushin and the Ohr Sameiach in Hil
T"T.
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:07:59 EDT
From: Joelirich@aol.com
Subject: Re: Non lyrical music
In a message dated 7/20/99 7:29:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
shlomog@mehish.co.il writes:
<<
Precisely. And there are also those which, even if singable, have melodies
which bear no relation whatsoever to their lyrics. "Baruch Ha-Gever"
comes to mind as a striking example of a total lack of correlation
between words and tune. Its words are powerful and uplifting, its
music silly and frivolous.
===================================
My entry in the dissonance between music and lyrics is "adam doeg al damav"
=============================
>let it suffice to
>say that ANY niggun which brings about simcha can be used to arouse one's
>soul and bring one closer to Hashem.
Agreed. This is indeed the bottom line. But as rebbeim are fond
of pointing out on Purim and on Simchas Torah, simcha is not hol'lus.
Kol tuv,
Shlomo Godick
>>
======================
or as The Rav(YB Soloveitchik) pointed out - true simcha is lifnei hashem - a
feeling of closeness to HKB"H and recognition of his rule.
She-nir'eh et nehamat Yerushalayim u-binyanah bi-mherah ve-yamenu,
Joel Rich
====================
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:30:47 -0400
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Torah and Science in Flux
>>With regard to Rav Wolpoe's susggestion - that as both science and torah are
in flux, why reject the mesora for now? Rav Zvi Yehuda Kook answers that this
presupposes that current scientific knowledge does not also come from hashem.
Meir Shinnar<<
Good Point.
Moshol: Tzaroas is not chal until the kohein says so.
Nimshol: Science has no Official beraing on Torah until some sort of consensus
of poskim agree that this piece of science has HALACHIC weight. I would also say
something similar re: machshovo.
For years archaeologists had doubts re: the historicity of some of the Torah
accounts. But I recall an article that left them chagrined when they found
evidence that there was a historical figure names Eiver! or IOW Eiver is not
allegorical.
For the record, I have no doubt that the Mabul was a historical event. BUT,
that mabul might not at all resemble the picture of a flood we have in our
minds.
The possuk says that Sodom was destroyed by Gofris vo'Eish. I don't have any
hashkofo problem with gofris vo'eish simply being a pre-atomic age metaphor for
an A-bomb, etc.
Similarly, our current technology might not yet have the wherewithal to fully
describe the mabbul as it happened. The Torah's loshon - while accurate - might
not be "literal". Perhaps someday, this mystery will be cleared up when
technology gives us a model or parallel that we CAN fathom. And Mabbul might
then be a pre-xxx meataphor for xxx, where xxx is a yet unidentified phenomenum.
Rich Wolpoe
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:54:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@idt.net>
Subject: Re: Avodah V3 #131
The discussion of allegorization has brought out two points that I have
NOT seen well-addressed by those who think that allegorization is a proper
approach.
1. The lack of support in Rishonim. As has been pointed out, the S;forno
seems to be the "most liberal" and HE is pretty circumspect. In addition,
people have quoted OTHER rishonim who take the material quite literally.
Now, given the concept of SH'al Aveecha V'Yagedcha Z'kainecha v'yomru lach
-- I would like to better understand teh legitimacy of such an approach
when there appears to be little or not SUPPORT and there is clear evidence
of OPPOSITION. Note that I am not commenting that the people doing this
were "good", "bad", or "misguided". I simply would like to know who we
can try to apply a "method" to understanding of [a section of] Torah when
there is no support in Rishonim, Geonim, Gemara, or Midrash. How is this
considered part of our "Mesorah" of understanding of Torah. I would add
that one of the arguements in countering Missionaries is that WE *always*
_base_ our understanding upon ChaZaL who had a clear Mesorah. Coming up
with "our own" allegories seems dangerously close (NOT identical) to the
methodology of some non-Jewish groups...
2. If one applies "Ein Dorshin" to include everything up ot the Avos,
seems to me that we would HAVE to take it literally and simply say that we
do not understand it. How does one who formulates allegories address this
matter?
3. I still do not understand the fundamental motivation for this approach.
I am reasonably sure (not positive) that "Science" will state that it is
unequivocally impossible for a nation of 2,000,000+ to have survived 40
Years in the Desert. "Science" will state that Water sufficient for such
a large nation will not come out of a Rock. Does anyone allegorize this?
Will people state that we should allegorize Yetziat Mitzraim because it is
"scientifically" impossible for the described events to occur? Is the
plague of "Blood" really just a red dust that polluted the river?? If one
is willing to accept OTHER "miraculous" sections of the Torah, I do nto
understand the difficulty here. Especially when we see ChaZaL who state
that "the seasons" *did not* operate during the year of the Flood. Were
they ALSO speaking in "allegory"? Seems to me that THEY accepted the
flood as "real"... If they could, why do WE (or some of us )have a
problem simply saying that this happened and that Science can not [yet]
excplain it?
--Zvi
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 99 10:27:06 EDT
From: Alan Davidson <DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: [none]
everyday (except perhaps shabbos and yomtov) is teshuvah season.
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 99 10:30:29 EDT
From: Alan Davidson <DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: on being literal
It's not just Rabbi Chaim Soleveitchik who is critical of the abandonment
of the mimetic tradition -- if anything (to borrow from what Rabbi Yaffe
once told me -- I do daven in his shul most shabbosim), one can argue
that this gives strength to some of the early chassidishe critiques of
textual Judaism -- I don't think you can tie this shift to a rightward
shift per se as much as to an increasing no. and % of baalei teshuvah
who tend to do things like learn sourcetexts and select minhagim
(like fasting the day before Rosh Chodesh or BehaB) which one should not
undertake without guidance from a Rav.
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:54:03 -0400
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: What moves me
FWIW I am primarily moved by various parts and pieces in the liturgy.
Kol Nidre might be a case in point. We have a very poignant piece to the
introduction to Oshamnu on YK (Ono tavo lefonecho...).
On a brighter side, the songs and pieces from Yomim Tovim, Purinm and Chanuko,
move me, (particularly Maoz Tsur and Adir Hu as having "pedigrees" of about
500-600 years)...
Rich Wolpoe
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:49:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
Subject: Tehuvah Season
: everyday (except perhaps shabbos and yomtov) is teshuvah season.
Why the "except"?
"Dirshu Hashem bihimatz'o, kara'uhu bihyoso karov" is applied to a particular
part of the year. So, while teshuvah may be appropriate at any time, there's
still a season where it's even more so.
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 MMG"H for 20-Jul-99: Shelishi, Vaeschanan
micha@aishdas.org A"H O"Ch 340:11-17
http://www.aishdas.org Pisachim 10a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light. Kuzari IV 25-28
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:57:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
Subject: Re: What moves you
Rich Wolpoe mentioned Kol Nidre. An interesting example. I don't find the
content particularly moving -- anulment of vows doesn't really do much for
me on an emotional level. OTOH, the Rav explains that we open with Kol Nidre
because the whole idea of being able to change the past is what underlies
teshuvah, as well as the anulment process.
What moves about KN is the timing (it opens Yom Kippur liturgy), the tune,
and the nostalgia/cultural content.
For me, liturgy moves me only when: 1- I know of some particular thought about
the tephillah (like the ones I occasionally post here) or 2- the tune it's
sung to "connects". I tend to get "into" the singing, and as I'm pretty
loud voiced to begin with...
In one shul I was singing along with the chazan's Kedushah on Rosh Hashanah.
The Rav of that shul, in true Brisker tradition, made a shushing motion with
his hand, as I and the other singers along were getting in the way of his
hearing chazaras haShatz. The rest of yomim nora'im I felt very self-conscious
about singing along.
I soon after changed shuls. There was no conscious connection between that
and the singing thing -- it was a new minyan that repeatedly called me for
a tenth. I wonder, though, if I wouldn't have been too loyal to switch had
this incident not occured.
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 MMG"H for 20-Jul-99: Shelishi, Vaeschanan
micha@aishdas.org A"H O"Ch 340:11-17
http://www.aishdas.org Pisachim 10a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light. Kuzari IV 25-28
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:15:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
Subject: Allegorization and the tshuvat haRashba
In vol #129, RYGB wrote:
<<However, ein chadash tachas ha'shemesh. The Rashba's famous ban on
Chochmos Chitzoniyos was promulgated, to a significant extent,
because
those involved in such studies were allegorizing portions of the
Torah -
such as Lot's wife, Amalek, etc. The Rashba and the other Gedolei
Torah
who signed on the ban were quick to identify this as Doresh Agados
shel
Dofi/Megaleh Ponim ba'Torah. >>
I read through the Rashba's tshuvot and am not convinced as to RYGB's
contentions on a number of points:
1. In the tshuvot 1:414 ff., I saw no mention of megaleh panim
ba'torah as an argument.
2. The Rashba, in the actual cherem (1:417), states that he is
dealing with those who "say that from Bereshit until Matan Torah
*everything* is a mashal." In fact, some said that the Torah is not
min ha'shamayim, just laws and customs enacted by Moshe. Rashba
rightfully castigates these positions. However, these positions are
very far from the view which says that we accept the literal
interpretation except in the few instances where it is contradicted
by science.
It is very hard to speculate what the Rashba would have said about
such a view. When I was in law school, my law professors made the
point that a court makes a decision and uses certain words based upon
an eggregious fact pattern, it is not necessarily true that the
court, in a similar but less eggegious case, would rule similarly
despite the relevance of the literal language of the previous
opinion. This is especially true where court decisions, written in
very objective language, mask the policy decisions which underlie the
judge's true reasons for the ruling. I believe that the same is
often true in Halacha-- ein l'dayan ela ma she'einav ro'ot.
Kol tuv,
Moshe
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:16:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
Subject: Re: on being literal
Alan Davidson writes:
: It's not just Rabbi Chaim Soleveitchik who is critical of the abandonment
: of the mimetic tradition ...
: some of the early chassidishe critiques of
: textual Judaism ...
With all do apologies to R' Yaffe, Chassidus is itself a major departure
to textualism. All those new minhagim (and Nusach "Sfard") were introduced
because they're what fit the Zohar, Ar"i and Besh"t's texts.
This was a criticism of R' Dr. Haym Soloveitchik's thesis that I've made
in the past. The movements of the 19th cent -- Chassidus, mussar, Yeshiva
(in particular, Brisk) -- were all departures from mimeticism. The difference
is that today, the texts are followed in terms of halachic content alone.
In the past, they drove movements, new ways of looking at the underlying
hashkafos -- which thereby effected changes in practice.
: shift per se as much as to an increasing no. and % of baalei teshuvah
: who tend to do things like learn sourcetexts and select minhagim
: (like fasting the day before Rosh Chodesh or BehaB) which one should not
: undertake without guidance from a Rav.
Perhaps the availability of source texts had an impact. I'd also question
cause and effect. If we weren't a bunch of textualists, the books wouldn't
have been written to begin with.
R' Dr. Soloveitchik dismisses the role of ba'alei teshuvah in this trend.
The centers of the shift to textualism are places like Lakewood and B'nei
Brak -- not the cities with larger numbers of BTs.
I think the chumrah of the month club is because of this shift from hashkafic
to halachic textualism. Without having a reason or vision behind choosing
one text over another, we're left with "being chosheid" for many different
shittos.
-mi
PS: A nit to pick, in the spirit of "viromamtonu mikol halshonos":
: ... I do daven in his shul most shabbosim...
Shabbasos. Shabbos is lashon nekeivah.
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 MMG"H for 20-Jul-99: Shelishi, Vaeschanan
micha@aishdas.org A"H O"Ch 340:11-17
http://www.aishdas.org Pisachim 10a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light. Kuzari IV 25-28
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:51:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
Subject: Re: What moves you?
R' YGB writes:
: I think yeshiva bachurim - for better or worse - are subtly and not so
: subtly sent the message that mitzvos ma'asios are not what should "turn
: you on" - rather, Torah Torah and more Torah. To a greater or lesser
: degree we (yeshiva alumni) probably have all absorbed that value.
This doesn't really answer my question. I wanted people's personal statements
on things that move them, so that the rest of us can get ideas for our own
avodas Hashem.
About this issue, though, while we say daily "Talmud Torah k'neged kulam",
k'neged means "equal", not "overshadows". The "kulam" appears to be the items
listed in the mishnah, not all of the 619 mitzvos other than talmud Torah.
And even if it did, the expression is clearly guzmah, since "tzitzis k'neged
kulam" and "yishuv eretz Yisrael k'neged kulam" -- and it's impossible for
three different items to each be worth 50% of the whole.
Personally, I think the yeshiva teaches one to confuse the excitement
associated with the intellectual stimulation of learning with religious
experience. Which would explain why we tend to rely on Tosfos' heter to
learn Shas (nearly) exclusively. Learning Shas is the quickest route to that
"lightbulb went on" feeling. Similarly, pilpul. Much easier than to do so
with Tanach.
Last, how much does the factor R' YGB mentions here affect societal ills we've
discussed in the past? If the yeshiva associates religion almost exclusively
with learning, life inside the beis medrash or community, and not with how to
live in general, how is someone going to develop a feeling of to'eivah WRT
dishonest business practices?
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 MMG"H for 20-Jul-99: Shelishi, Vaeschanan
micha@aishdas.org A"H O"Ch 340:11-17
http://www.aishdas.org Pisachim 10a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light. Kuzari IV 25-28
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:00:12 -0400
From: David Glasner <DGLASNER@FTC.GOV>
Subject: Aharonim on Tisha b'Av
Moving on from allegorization to inyana d'yoma, I was just wondering if Rabbi Bechhoffer has a view on the permissibility of studying works of Aharonim on Tisha b'Av in view of his assertion some months back that the works of Aharonim don't qualify as divrei Torah. (Please excuse me if I have mischaracterized your position.)
David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:16:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eli Turkel <turkel@icase.edu>
Subject: population figures
I thought it might be interesting
>>
The world Jewish population is currently estimated at
slightly over 13 million; the number of hareidi Jews in the world is
850,000, including 500,000 in Israel; less than 20% of the Jews in the
former Soviet Union are involved in any form of Jewish communal activity.
Perhaps most significantly, outside of Israel, no Jewish populace in any
country has a positive growth rate.
<<
Eli Turkel
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:35:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject: Re: Allegorization and the tshuvat haRashba
On Tue, 20 Jul 1999, Moshe Feldman wrote:
> I read through the Rashba's tshuvot and am not convinced as to RYGB's
> contentions on a number of points:
>
> 1. In the tshuvot 1:414 ff., I saw no mention of megaleh panim
> ba'torah as an argument.
>
The search I ran was on "Shel Dofi". The Gemara in Sanhedrin 99b equates
Doresh Derashos shel Dofi with MPbT. The Rashba calls the activities of
these groups "Doresh Derashos shel Dofi" (DDsD).
That is really all I think I need to respond to in your post. I think you
would do well to address the cogently framed arguments of R' Zvi Weiss.
YGB
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:38:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject: Re: Aharonim on Tisha b'Av
On Tue, 20 Jul 1999, David Glasner wrote:
> Moving on from allegorization to inyana d'yoma, I was just wondering if
> Rabbi Bechhoffer has a view on the permissibility of studying works of
> Aharonim on Tisha b'Av in view of his assertion some months back that
> the works of Aharonim don't qualify as divrei Torah. (Please excuse me
> if I have mischaracterized your position.)
>
Bechhofer - two h's, one f. Sorry, I didn't make up the name!
I am not sure that Divrei Acharonim are not Cheftza shel Torah - I am
unsure. And, we were discussing Divrei Acharonim that are pure Acharonishe
Torah, not that include Chazalic material. Bet that as it may, the Issur
of TT for 9 Av and Aveilus is based on Simcha, and Acharonishe Torah can
cause much Simcha.
YGB
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:09:32 -0400
From: David Glasner <DGLASNER@FTC.GOV>
Subject: Re: Jewish rock music
Shaul Weinreb wrote:
<<<
As a great grandson of the Modzitzer Rebbe ZT'l, who was arguably the most
important Chassidic singer and mechaber of niggunim in recent religioius
Jewish History, I also lament the decline of old fashioned chassidishe
neginah, and I am not too pleased with the modern "chassidic" music.
However, I strongly disagree with Reb Shlomo's words. The old rebbehs
routinely borrowed from popular Polish, Russian and German styles of music,
sometimes borrowing whole tunes (many niggunim actually have elaborate
traditions relating the shepard who was singing this tune or the drunk who
was singing another). I don't think the atmosphere of a tavern in Poland
was much more holy than Janis whatever his name was.
>>>
Your assumption is at least debatable, but probably not resolvable with the empirical means at our disposal. The relevant question is what has been done with the material at hand. The most cursory comparison between the sublime melodies and niggunim composed by your ancestors and other composers in the same tradition with what is now being produced and played at Orthodox simchas is more than sufficient to establish the extent of the degeneration. We're not allowed to read Romeo and Julliet, but are allowed to listen to this "stuff"? Asm'hah! The kind of separate dancing that routinely takes place at these simchas would have scandalized the grownups of two or three generations ago who routinely attended the opera. Perhaps if the grownups of today also set foot in the opera house, they too would be scandalized. Sorry. I really didn't mean to get on my soap box.
<<<
Without going into a
whole discourse on the phiulosophy of neginah in Modzitz, let it suffice to
say that ANY niggun which brings about simcha can be used to arouse one's
soul and bring one closer to Hashem. I therefore have no problem with
using rock tunes or pop tunes or whatever, if people find them inspiring.
>>>
How can any music, whose principal distinguishing characteristic is a beat that goes thump, thump, thump, going to arouse anyone's soul?
<<<
HOWEVER, my personal objection to many of the modern tunes is that they
are not singable by the average person, they are written to entertain
(which, in my opinion, some of them do quite well) but they are not written
to be sung, and singing is the essence and the core of the aliyah that a
person is supposed to achieve through neginah.
>>>
Same question as above.
David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov
!
!
!
!
!
!
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:56:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
Subject: Re: Jewish Rock Music
David Glassner writes, "The kind of separate dancing that routinely takes
place at these simchas would have scandalized the grownups of two or three
generations ago."
I think we should be even more scandalized by the idea that we wouldn't even
think of having mixed dancing at our weddings, yet the dancing we do have
consists heavily of people (ok, mostly the chassan's friends, who are kind of
young) aggressively competing -- often physically -- to get as close the
middle as possible.
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 MMG"H for 20-Jul-99: Shelishi, Vaeschanan
micha@aishdas.org A"H O"Ch 340:11-17
http://www.aishdas.org Pisachim 10a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light. Kuzari IV 25-28
Go to top.
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:33:09 -0700
From: "Newman,Saul Z" <Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org>
Subject: religiosity in dati hi school students-israel
see wednesday haaretz jul 21 99 for article on level of religiosity in
mamlachti dati current hi school graduates.
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:16:02 -0400
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Subject: not fasting on Tisha B'Av
volunteers. If that's successful and we get a specific piece of
>equipment from the physics dept. and the experiment on rats carried out
with this equipment is sucessful, we might not have to fast on Tisha B'Av
next year (see my post last week on the shitot of the rishonim on the
gemara in Rosh Hashana 18b). V'Ha'meyvin yavin et ha'remez.
Could you amplify for the nonmeyvinim?
Gershon
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:21:52 -0400
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Subject: what "reaches you"
>A simple question:
>
>Is there any mitzvah or minhag that in particular reaches you? Or
>perhaps, is there some particular method of performing that mitzvah or
minhag that is worth sharing so the rest of us can have a similar
experience?
I'd like to clarify on Micha's behalf: I think he is NOT looking for
what you think is lacking in Yiddishkeit today, nor what "they" don't
do correctly; I think he is looking for suggestions to improve our
avodah which have been anecdotally successful for the contributor.
May I suggest, in the realm of kavanas hatefila, choosing one tefila
(you can always add down the road) and determining to say it with kavana,
meaning pirush hamilos, no more, but every time. For this to be
successful, I suggest choosing a tefila which can be repeated without
problems of hefsek, brocho levatala, etc. Two possibilities are
tachanun and oleinu. When you keep at this, it has a positive influence
on all your tefilos as well.
Gershon
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:57:29 -0400
From: Harry Maryles <C-Maryles@neiu.edu>
Subject: Re: What moves you?
Micha Berger wrote:
>
> A simple question:
>
> Is there any mitzvah or minhag that in particular reaches you? Or perhaps, is
> there some particular method of performing that mitzvah or minhag that is worth
> sharing so the rest of us can have a similar experience?
>
> I'd like to collect such suggested hanhagos. After all, it's only three weeks
> until t'shuvah season.
I stand in awe watching Kiruv in action. Whenever I see anyone with
absolutely no background in Torah seek out and embrace the Torah and
it's lifestyle, often at great sacrifice, it has a tremendous impact on
me. My experience with NCSY'ers here in Chicago, has often moved me
greatly, and I have great admiration for those in the movement who so
tirelessly dedicate themslves to kiruv, and have achieved great success.
HM
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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:59:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eli Turkel <turkel@icase.edu>
Subject: rift within the Halachic community
RYGB writes
<<
But, in my opinion, tragically, this is not the case. As R' Meir - whom I
respect and with whom I always carry on respectful conversations, and who
has the rare knack of discussing controversial topics without resorting to
hyperbole and rhetoric - indicates, there is a gulf between our approaches
that is likely unbridgeable. As I say, this is tragic, and may well
eventually lead to an irreparable rift within the Halachic community. >>
Tragically, the Jewish community has a tendency to quarrel among
themselves and to constantly draw red lines to put much of the rest
of Judaism beyond the pale.
1. In yesterday's daf yomi "Artscroll" quotes a Ritva that Asmachta is
really hinted in the Torah. Not beleiving in this is heresy. This
despite that many rishonim disagreed with this viewpoint.
2. We have previously discussed that some rishonim seem to hint that
portions of the Torah were not written by Moshe even though according
to Rambam that makes them an apikorus.
3. Chazon Ish writes in his published letters that if one does not
literally beleive in all that Chazal state anywhere then his
shechitah is pasul. Since, I personally have a hard time accepting
that the medicines in the Gemara were anything more than the medical
knowledge of the day that puts me (together with R. Avraham ben haRambam
and several Geonim among others) together with reform Jewry.
4. We are all familar with the great fight of the legacy of Rambam,
the fights between hasidim and mitnagdim, between Yavetz and
R. Eibshutz.
Today we still have hasidim and mitnagdim, ashkenazim and sefardim,
haredim and Modern Orthodox all who claim that they are right and
the other side has no legitimacy.
We all know the definition of a heretic is one who is one step to the left
of our beliefs while the fanatic is one step to the right. I find the
published letters of the Steipler Rav filled with language I would not
use against major rabbanim from Mizrachi and Poale Agudah. He advocates
burning the sefer Sarei Hameah (a beautiful collection of stories about
recent achronim) because he disagreed with the politics of R. Maimon.
These are facts beyond the control of our community. However, I have
fears of Sicarii becoming a power again with all sorts of moral
squads imposing their standards on others. There have been cases of
stores vandalized and burnt for carrying the wrong newspapers, schools
torched for teaching secular studies. While these actions are done by
a fringe element I have my fears of its spreading. There was even a
case in recent years of Rav Eliyashiv's car being attacked because of
a psak halacha.
In these days of a churban caused by sinat chinom the antidote should
be ahavat chinom.
May we see the rebuilding of the Jewish community which will lead to
the rebuilding of the Bet haMikdash.
Sad to say, but if the bet haMikdash were miraculously built overnight,
it would probably cause irreparable damage because of fights over
control. Thus, we need the Moshiach before the rebuilding of the Temple
to bring peace between nations but even harder to bring peace within
the jewish nation.
Eli Turkel
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