Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 115

Wednesday, July 7 1999

• Administrivia
• Re: Avodah V3 #114
• Re: discussing failures of Orthodoxy
• Independent thinking
• re: Birchas haTorah on thinking Torah
• Re: Being Mahmir on Hazal -- What About Pesulei Shehitah?
• Re: Being Mahmir on Hazal -- What About Pesulei Shehitah?
• Re: Birchas haTorah on thinking Torah
• Re: Birchas haTorah on thinking Torah
• Thought
• re: Birchas haTorah on thinking Torah
• RE: Birchas haTorah on thinking Torah
• Re: Birchas haTorah on thinking Torah
• Way Off Topic
• Re: Avodah V3 #113
• TIDE Revisionism
• Pro-secular studies schools of thought
• Being Mahmir on Hazal
• Re: Being Mahmir on Hazal
• Re: Mother of Shooting Victim

A few important reminders:
1- When you quote a text, please remember to edit out anything that you
   aren't directly addressing. A quote ought to only include enough for
   others to understand your reply without referring back to the original
   post -- and no more.

   A few people posted entire digests lately. That is a waste of people's
   time, making them wait for long downloads of material they read already.
   (Some people pay per amount downloaded. If any of our readers are on
   that kind of plan, it wastes their money as well.)

2- Change the subject line of your post. "Re: Avodah vol 3 #112" doesn't
   tell anyone what it is your post is about.

   From a different perspective, the web archive has an index by subject
   line. If your subject line is identical to that of the post you're replying
   to, or is more relevant to your post, some future reader is more likely
   to find your words of wisdom.

3- A number of people still post lines longer than 80 characters. Not everyone
   has email readers that word wrap paragraphs -- and some emailers truncate
   lines longer than 256 characters.

   Unfortunately, I don't know the intimate workings of each email program. I
   apologize that I can't always help you reconfigure your emailer. Which
   brings me to...

4- Only post plain ASCII text. Again, the idea is to conform to the least
   common denominator so that all readers can enjoy your post. In this case,
   though, the MajorDomo software that produces Avodah Digests doesn't handle
   MIME, HTML, RichText or the like.

-mi

PS: Some version of these guidelines will be inserted into the membership
agreement. I invite people to send me in personal email (micha@aishdas.org)
any other suggestions they'd like included.

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Jul-99: Revi'i, Matos-Masei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H O"Ch 336:3-9
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 3b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-I 7

My apologies for messing up #114. I meant to forward #113 to a friend.

YH

 >>>I think it is approriate to discuss what any and each of us 
see as flaws in the observance of Yahadus by large groups of Orthodox 
Jews outside this list.  <<<

I would like to just register my strong disagreement with the above 
statement.  

This list or any other public forum is no place to debate what you see 
as the failings of others.  By all means, discuss the positive aspects of
your own religious views - be it in embracing or rejecting Western culture, 
or other issues - and hope your enthusiasm and cogency will sway others.

-Chaim

From: Harry Maryles <C-Maryles@neiu.edu>

Since I was the one who coined the phrase, I feel I should apologize for 
it. "The Sheep Mentality"  does indeed have negative/demeaning 
connotations.  I have used that phrase in private conversations many 
times in the past when discussing my frustration with people who chose 
paths in Yahdus for their children that have little to do with their way 
of life or their own Mesorah. I applaud the change of name to "thinking 
for oneself" 

However, I must respectfully disagree with RYGB and Micha as to the 
relative importance of the topic and enthusiastically agree with those 
who have spoken favorably.  In all fairness there have been some 
inappropriate references amongst the many posts but for the most part 
the discussion that has been generated has been enlightening.  This is 
more than about "my camp is better than your camp?" Some of the very 
core issues that we have been debating may have their roots in whether 
one thinks for himself in an intellectually honest fashion or (as one 
person reffenced) one is just "following orders".  It is perhaps (I 
don't know) an essential feature of the present day Yeshiva Hashkafa 
which instills in it's students the idea that one should listen to the 
Rebbe or Rosh HaYeshiva, and never think for himself, in matters of 
Hashkafa.  I will never forget the following story:  

There was a fellow in Chicago several years ago who was hired from the 
Chazon Ish Kolel(Bnei Brak) to be the Rosh Kolel here in a private 
Kolel. The Kolel only lasted a year or two.  When I asked him about the 
decision to come here he told me that He only came after asking the Rosh 
Kolel in Bnei Brak.  IOW He would NEVER make a decision like that for 
himself.  The phrase that sticks with me to this day was the rhetorical, 
"Auf Meine Plaitzes?" I'm hearing this phrase more and more these days. 
The idea being that he dare not make a decision. Only somebody, of 
greater stature may make it for him. Mind you this is NOT a chasidische 
Yeshiva where one asks the Rebbe everything.  This is as Litvish a 
Yeshiva as you can get. 

The Roshie Yeshiva are taking on the Aura of Chasidische Rebbes and 
slowly, incrementally, taking away Bechira from their talmidim. I am 
reminded of One Rosh HaYeshiva that has taken the concept of Kavod for 
the Rosh HaYeshiva to new heights.  He almost never gives an audience to 
the High School Talmidim.  Only as they get  the Bais Hamedrash level, 
do they get to have any kind of meaningful contact with him. The 
Talmidim revere him.
...

HM<<

During a visit to my chavruso's bungalo, we did the old YU anti-YU shaklo 
v'taryo. I explained that just because Dr. Lamm says x does NOT mean all of YU 
holds that way, unlike a more yeshivishe institution in which the Rosh Yeshiva's
word is law at least within the confines of that Yeshiva. IOW, different 
institutions tolerate pluralism and others do not.

YU's hashkofo encouraged us to be independent poskim.  Many students were 
ridiculed by rabbei'im, one rebbe (circa 1975) termed the semicha klaf (and no 
necessarily YU's klaf) as pieces of paper with R. Moshe's phone number on it!

Many yeshivishe people are horrified that YU rabbonim paskin so boldly, but it's
a fact that we were encouraged to do so.  The hahskofo was all about independent
thought, standing up on our own.  My yoreh deah rebbe told me do not stay in NY,
but go out to Kansas, etc.

Remember YU was founded by the very few maverick, pioneering talmidei chachomim 
who left the "safety" of Eastern Europe prior to W.W.II and who came to the 
American Frontier to promote Torah in a proverbial midbar.  

W/O taking sides, just realize that there is an underlying machlokes on this 
matter.

My own "compromise" as many of you have read, is to encourage VERY independent 
thinking, but to rely upon precedent and mesorah in areas of hanhogo.  This is 
how I can live with studying "chocho Yisroel" and investigating some radical 
ideas w/o jeopardizing halocho.

Special Situations:

The case of the woman in the hospital, is a very grey area.  Truly, I think it 
VERY prudent to consult poskim or "mashpi'im" in important matters, OTOH she 
probably used bad judgment because of the clear and immediate danger.  However, 
had this been surgery - which for the sake of argument could wait a week or 2 - 
it might be VERY useful to get the pros and cons from a halacho or hashkofo POV.

We had a member of our family in a sakkono and a coma, and we consulted R. MD 
Tendler regularly, to the point we gave him the doctor's number and gave the 
doctor his number.  It was a very fine line between actively promoting miso and 
passively letting it happen, only a real mumcheh IMHO could decide.  (And we are
forever grateful for his "hands-on" intervention!)

Certainly, I discussed aspects of the din with R. Tendler, but deferred to his 
far greater expertise in matters concerning biology and halocho.  Had the she'lo
been re: kashrus, I might have selected  a different Gadol in psak.   

Wrt to RYGB's concerns, indepdendent thinking is NOT a heter for avoiding honest
research.  And consulting scholars is part of the research process. I once saw a
rabbi publish an article that attributed a chumro to the MB when it was an 
ofeneh Tur!  That kind of jumping to conclusions is NOT what I call independent 
thinkging in its best sense.

Rich Wolpoe

According to those who say that you make a Birchat HaTorah on hirhur Torah, 
is it still preferable to learn Torah verbally?  What if one learns better 
(or faster) by reading with one's eyes than by reading aloud?

Kol tuv,
Moshe
-------------
Original Text
From: <C1A1Brown@aol.com>, on 7/6/99 9:56 PM:
To: SMTP@CMPNY5@Servers[<avodah@aishdas.org>]

Just an interesting mareh makom: the M"B in Biyur Halacha in siman 47 
discusses the shittas haGR"A that birchas haTorah is said even on thinking 
(hirhur) divrei Torah.  I found a one line mention of this is MaHaRaL end 
ch. 
4 of Nesivav haTorah in Nesivos Olam where he writes based on the gemara 
Eiruvin that T"T must be done verbally that if done only by hirhur no 
bracha 
is recited.

-Chaim

In a message dated 7/6/99 3:44:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM writes:

> who the "Solet le-Minhah" is, but if a better-informed listmember can
>  enlighten me, I would be most grateful.   Also, as RYGB noted, the
>  Pithei Teshuvah there provides evidence for the contrary position as
>  well.
>  
>  But I do not know why we are focusing on the words of an obscure (to me)
>  Aharon.  RYGB writes:
>  

In a message dated 7/6/99 3:44:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM writes:

> who the "Solet le-Minhah" is, but if a better-informed listmember can
>  enlighten me, I would be most grateful.   Also, as RYGB noted, the
>  Pithei Teshuvah there provides evidence for the contrary position as
>  well.
>  
>  But I do not know why we are focusing on the words of an obscure (to me)
>  Aharon.  RYGB writes:
>  
The "Solet L'mincha" was authored by R' Yaakov Reesher, author of the famous 
"Shvus Yaakov".  In addition the "Darkei Tshuvah" on Y"D 116 Ois 109 brings 
other Poskim who deal with this issue, including the Ramoh in his responsa 
end of # 54.

Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l held that lihalachah, hirhurim do not require birchas
haTorah. However, since he couldn't picture it being possible to walk to
shul without some hirhurei Torah crossing your mind, and one is able to say
birchas haTorah at home, one ought (not "must") say birchas haTorah as early
in the day as possible.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Jul-99: Revi'i, Matos-Masei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H O"Ch 336:3-9
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 3b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-I 7

In a message dated 7/7/99 9:11:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mfeldman@CM-P.COM 
writes:

> What if one learns better 
>  (or faster) by reading with one's eyes than by reading aloud?
>  
Chayim Heim Lmotzi'ei'hem Bpeh.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

I am still not convinced:

1. I still do not see what we gain by discusiing this here. Aderaba,
instead of concentrrating on the need to think, we should discuss thought
provoking topics!

2. There is a difference between, say, when last week a Modern Orthodox
Male said "All Charedi Women are trained not to think" (paraphrase) - try
substituting Black for Charedi in that statement and you will see how
racist it is, and a Charedi Femalew making the same statement (even though
it would still be untrue). Kind of like self-deprecating vs.
other-deprecating humor.

I think if we all criticized our own flaws, that might be far more
acceptable - which is more of what you are doing, not what was being done
here last week.

On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 toramada@netvision.net.il wrote:

> Perhaps a discussion here will wake up some people who think that since
> they are "thinkers" -- they have done their part. <g>
> 
> This problem goes beyond "my camp" "your camp" and I have to agree with
> HM here.
> 
> As someone else on the list noted - thinking is hard work.  Not everyone
> is interested in it.  But it can have severe repercusions when the
> person not interested in thinking is a school teacher.  Through many
> different venues I have come into contact with young women (especially,
> but also young men) who have told me, what I consider horror stories. 
> How they asked their .... grade teacher a question on Hashem or Torah
> and were answered: "How dare you ask this question?!!!! Aren't you
> religious?!!!"  And no - this wasn't confined to just one "camp".  This
> can be found in all groups from ultra-xareidi to conservadox (still
> orthodox but with conservative type hashkafa).  This kind of
> reaction/no-answer brings about the situation of adults who don't think
> for themselves. 
> 
> A 2nd very severe result is that with so many rabbis and even dayanim
> who aren't willing to rely on their opinion -- we have situations where
> cases aren't judged but rather are pushed off so that the couples will
> some how find a resolution that won't force the dayanim to decide, and
> rabbis are just saying "assur" instead of actually analyzing matters and
> paskening based on their Emunah, study, intuition, analysis and
> understanding. 
> 
> As most of this list is composed of men, many with either smicha or at
> least advanced learning, I don't know how critical this can be for you,
> but for women who are taught that we have to rely on rabbis, and not
> think for ourselves on halachic matters -- I have seen some serious,
> even life threatening results of this problem. 
> 
> Do I have a solution?  Only education, not only of our children, but of
> the teachers who stand in daily for us and are supposed to teach our
> children to follow Pirkay Avot (the 4 talmidim) - and teach them to use
> the brains that Hashem gifted them with. 
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Shoshana
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

For a long discussion of this issue, see Yabia Omer, OC 4:8.

Kol tuv,
Moshe
-------------
Original Text
From: <C1A1Brown@aol.com>, on 7/6/99 9:56 PM:
To: SMTP@CMPNY5@Servers[<avodah@aishdas.org>]

Just an interesting mareh makom: the M"B in Biyur Halacha in siman 47 
discusses the shittas haGR"A that birchas haTorah is said even on thinking 
(hirhur) divrei Torah.  I found a one line mention of this is MaHaRaL end 
ch. 
4 of Nesivav haTorah in Nesivos Olam where he writes based on the gemara 
Eiruvin that T"T must be done verbally that if done only by hirhur no 
bracha 
is recited.

-Chaim

>According to those who say that you make a Birchat HaTorah on hirhur Torah,

>is it still preferable to learn Torah verbally?  What if one learns better 
>(or faster) by reading with one's eyes than by reading aloud?

>Kol tuv,
>Moshe



I believe the issue here is not whether there is a kiyum of talmud torah
without actual dibbur but rather whether birchat hatorah are a birchat
hamitzva and thus would be chal even on hirhur(which is the Gra's position)
or whether the birchat hatorah are a birchat shevach on the cheftza shel
torah ("asher bacahar banu ...") and thus require some form of verbal
expression (the Mechaber's position).  This issue is addressed by the Griz
al haRambam in the name of Rav Chaim.  There are a number of additional
nafka mina, including perhaps, whether women are chayavot.

Shimon Isaacson 

In a message dated 7/7/99 10:38:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
AIsaacson@CM-P.COM writes:

> I believe the issue here is not whether there is a kiyum of talmud torah
>  without actual dibbur 

This too is an issue in the Poskim

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

--------------FDDCC1CC54A73D48448A815F
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii
Content-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.93.990707100024.16778D@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>

While I realize this is way beyond the parameters of our conversations, I
think it is useful and instructive, so I am taking the liberty of
forwarding it to us all. As per the advice inside, I pared the headers!

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila


---------- Forwarded message ---------- 

"Stop the Insanity...My latest rant about the stuff I get as e-mail."

1. Big companies don't do business via chain letter. Bill Gates is not
giving you $1000, and Disney is not giving you a free vacation.  There is
no baby food company issuing class-action checks.  MTV will not give you
backstage passes if you forward something to the most people.

You can relax; there is no need to pass it on "just in case it's true."
Furthermore, just because someone said in the message, four generations
back, that "we checked it out and it's legit", does not actually make it
true. 

2. There is no kidney theft ring in New Orleans. No one is waking up in a
bathtub full of ice, even if a friend of a friend swears it happened to
their cousin.  If you are hell-bent on believing the kidney-theft ring
stories, please see: 
http://urbanlegends.tqn.com/library/weekly/aa062997.htm. 

And I quote: "The National Kidney Foundation has repeatedly issued for
actual victims of organ thieves to come forward and tell their stories.
None have". That's "none" as in "zero".  Not even your friend's cousin. 

3. Neiman Marcus doesn't have a restaurant, and they don't really sell a
$200 cookie recipe either.  And even if they do, we all have it. And if
you don't, you can get a copy at: http://www.bl.net/forwards/cookie.html

4. We all know all 101 ways to drive your roommates crazy, irritate
coworkers, gross out bathroom stall neighbors and creep out people on an
elevator. And...We also know exactly how many engineers, college students,
Usenet posters and people from each and every world ethnicity it takes to
change a light bulb. 

5. Even if the latest NASA rocket disaster(s) DID contain plutonium that
went to particulate over the eastern seaboard, do you REALLY think this
information would reach the public via an AOL chain-letter? 

7. If your CC: list is regularly longer than the actual content of your
message, you're probably going to burn in Hell, for all of
eternity...andyou will deserve it. 

8. If you're using Outlook, IE, or Netscape to write e-mail, turn off the
"HTML encoding. " Those of us on Unix shells can't read it, and don't care
enough to save the attachment and then view it with a web browser, since
you're probably forwarding us a copy of the Neiman Marcus Cookie Recipe
anyway. 

9. If you still absolutely MUST forward that 10th-generation message from
a friend, at least have the decency to trim the eight miles of headers
showing everyone else who's received it over the last 6 months.  Besides,
if it has gone around that many times-we've probably already seen it, and
anyway, we're busy making cookies. 

10. Craig Shergold (or Sherwood, or Sherman, etc.) in England is not dying
of cancer or anything else at this time and would like everyone to stop
sending him their business cards. He apparently is also no longer a "6
year old little boy" either. 

11. The "Make a Wish" foundation is a real organization doing fine work,
but they have had to establish a special toll free hotline in response to
the large number of Internet hoaxes using their good name and reputation. 
It is distracting them from the important work they do. 

12. The American Cancer Society TAKES donations, they do not MAKE
donations. They do NOT judge your case based on how many cute stories have
been e-mailed on your behalf. 

14. While we're on it, there is no software that tracks where an e-mail
has gone to and how many people saw it. 

15. There is no "Good Times" virus.  In fact, you should never, ever, ever
forward any e-mail containing any virus warning unless you first confirm
it at an actual site of an actual company that actually deals with virus. 
        http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/hoax.html
        http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html

And you cannot get a virus from a flashing Instant Message, you have to
download .... ya know, like a FILE! 

16. If you are one of those insufferable idiots who forwards anything that
promises "something bad will happen if you don't," then something bad will
happen to you if I ever meet you in a dark alley. 

Bottom Line ... composing E-mail or posting something on the Net is as
easy as writing on the walls of a public restroom.  Don't automatically
believe it unless it's proven false...ASSUME it's false, unless there is
proof that it's true. 

Got it? Good. Now, forward this message to ten friends and you will win
the Publishers Clearinghouse sweepstakes. 

--Author unknown

--------------FDDCC1CC54A73D48448A815F--

Yisrael Herczeg wrote:
> Am I the only one who does not read posts that quote an entire issue?
steve

R. M. Poppers writes:

>In this vein, I recommend (esp. if you don't have the time or the desire to
>read Rav Hirsch's works) Rabbi Yehudah (Leo) Levi's Tradition 31:3 article,
>entitled "Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch -- Myth and Fact."  Pages 6-8 address
>secular studies of various kinds; based on them, I would emphasize that the
>"caveat" means Rav Hirsch was *not* "[p]ro *all* areas."

It pains me to report that the above-cited article is baldly revisionist
in its presentation of R. Hirsch's views.  Least persuasive by far is
the author's contention that R. Hirsch would be a Zionist today.  Highly
deceptive is his characterization of R. Hirsch's attitude toward the
arts, especially his characterization of the circumstances under which
R. Hirsch gave his famous speech in praise of Schiller.

She-nir'eh et nehamat Yerushalayim u-binyanah bi-mherah ve-yamenu,

Eli Clark

On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Clark, Eli wrote:

>> First, it is striking that only with respect to RSR Hirsch does RYGB
>> refer to the:
>>
>> >caveat that they all be adjunct to and subordinate to Torah and
>> >its standards, and that their study be delineated by yiras shomayim.
>
>> I think this caveat applies (mutatis mutandis) to all of the schools
>> enumerated.
>

RYGB replies:
>Uh, I don't think so. To the best of my understanding, this is the key
>objection the Breuers' TIDE perspective has to YU. At least from their
>perspective, YU seems to hold that we will teach the bes secular studies
>according to the standards of the secular world, i.e., the best possible
>curriculum, even if that entail "apikorsus" with the best possible
>teachers, even if they are "apikorsim", fall the chips where they may
>(shades of RYBS's "Ramsayim Tzofim" RCA Address). To the TIDE perspective,
>this approach is unacceptable.

Well, even assuming that this accurately describes the difference
between the Breuers and YU, what of the Gra?  Surely he subordinated his
interest in math and science to Torah.  And, for example, R.
Lichtenstein has repeatedly made clear that secular culture is
subordinate to Torah.  I cannot imagine R. Soloveitchik having any other
view, though I am unaware of an explicit statement of his on the issue.
Rambam is an interesting case, and has been accused of importing foreign
perspectives into Torah, but in any case, were he found direct conflict
with Torah, he rejected the hokhmah of the goyim (I am disregarding, for
our purposes, "esoteric" interpretations of Rambam).

Also it should be noted that the Breuers' TIDE perspective is not
identical  -- notwithstanding claims to the contrary -- with Hirsch's
own.  Nor, it probably goes without saying, is R. Soloveitchik's vision
necessarily embodied by the curriculum at Yeshiva College.

She-nir'eh et nehamat Yerushalayim u-binyanah bi-mherah ve-yamenu,

Eli Clark

RYGB writes:

>As you might expect, I beg to differ. Even the case of shehi'ah is based
>in the larger sense of "ein anu beki'in" - i.e., we are not electing to
>reject Chazal because of new information and therefore be machmir over
>their standard, rather, since we are not sure as to the resolution of the
>shehi'ah issue, we say "ma lanu v'la'tzara ha'zos", better to avoid the
>whole issue. This is a practical chumra, not one based on conceptual
>rejection of Chazal's benchmark.
>But this is all in defense of R' Aharon Soloveichik. You might do better
>by asking him or a family member dirrectly.

I shall not press you, as you say you are simply defending R. Ahron.
But the case of shehiyah, unlike haladah, is very much resolved.  There
is no more safek there than in any other case of mahloket Amoraim, where
we look to kelalei pesak and the Rishonim for guidance.  Certainly the
Rosh, the Tur and Mehabber saw the issue as resolved.  The Sefardim
still do.  And even in a case of safek, the normal procedure is to take
the most mahmir position, but in the case of shehiyah we have invented a
new shitah that is more mahmir than anything in the Gemara or Rishonim.

It should also be noted that the Rema is careful to use the language of
nohagim le-hahmir.  Arguably, he is not questioning the pesak halakhah,
but is delineating a minhag that goes lifnim mi-shurat ha-din.

The doctrine of practical humra that you propose is new to me; applied
more widely it would make the entire enterpise of pesak halakhah
unnecessary.   Why ask a she'elah?  Why look for an answer?  Why try to
resolve a mahloket posekim?   "Mah lanu ve-la-tzarah ha-zot?"  This
doctrine may be practical, but it sort of conflicts with the last 2000
years of halakhic history.

She-nir'eh et nehamat Yerushalayim u-binyanah bi-mherah ve-yamenu,

Eli Clark

In a message dated 7/7/99 11:14:24 AM EST, clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM writes:

> unlike haladah, is very much resolved.  There
>  is no more safek there than in any other case of mahloket Amoraim, where
>  we look to kelalei pesak and the Rishonim for guidance.

See S"O Horav 23 Ois 11, for discussion and mote Shitas Habach.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

I had heard that the mother of one of the shooting victims reads
soc.culture.jewish. Here was her reply to my request for more info.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Jul-99: Revi'i, Matos-Masei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H O"Ch 336:3-9
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 3b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-I 7

-- forwarded message --
From: mawolfe@bnoshenya.org (Miriam)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Mother of Shooting Victim
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 11:48:21 -0500
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL, US

My son is expected to make a complete recovery from the gunshot wound.

The bullet is imbeded in his right tibia and will remain there permanently.
We are grateful to HaShem Yisborach for not only sparing our son's life but
that of our friends and neighbors who were shot or shot at.

My son is generally in excellent spirits, but presently he fighting off a
bug (flu or strep or something of the like unrelated to the gunshot wound).
We kindly ask that misheberach be made for Ephraim Dovid ben Miriam.

WRT to the future: we are suing Matt Hale, his "church", Smith's estate,
Smith's parents, the gun dealer, et.al.


May moshiach tzidkanu come immediately that we may all celebrate the geulah
of klal Yisroel.

-- 
Your faithful correspondent,

Miriam Wolfe

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]