Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 102

Monday, June 28 1999

• sheep mentality
• Choice of schools
• Hi Chevra!
• secular studies
• bal tshuve movements
• Chareidi Schools
• Re: Choice of schools
• Fish and Meat, Barbecues

Moshe writes
> 
> The issue you raise is one reason to make Aliyah.  I get the
> impression that in Israel, the serious Dati-Leumi (hesder derivative)
> community does not act this way.
> 
Sorry to say this is not always true. I was speaking to a dati
pyschologist from Bar Ilan and he said he recently visited a dati-leumi
yishuv in the Shomron and found 50 clones. All had gone to similar
yeshivot, all had learned in the kollel in Bar Ilan and all thought
in similar ways.

On the other hand one of my sons received a lecture from his rosh yeshiva in
Karnei Shomron on the importance of living in a totally religious
environment like a yishuv torani.
My son, based on his experiences in the army and Bnei Akiva decided that 
exactly the opposite was appropriate for him. He wants to live in a mixed
community so he can interact with and influence nonreligious Jewry.

However, it is clear that Moshe is basically correct that the hesder
yeshivot do have a widely variety of hashkafot among the serious students
than is found in most Israeli charedi yeshivot.

Eli Turkel

Reb Harry writes "I have been active in Jewish education here in Chicago
for many years 
and have observed that most parents pick a day school or high school for 
their children not, because it most closely aligns with their own 
hashkafa, but because their freinds send their children there. One of 
the most common lines I hear from parents of a similar hashkafa to my 
own is, "I wanted to send my son/daughter to the "Frumest" Yeshiva... I 
can always make them less frum at home"!!! These parents don't give a 
moments thought to the fact that the school's hashkafa will be different 
than their own and that that will create potential conflict between the 
lives they see in thir own home and the hashkafa they learn in school."
I live here in Chicago, and I am one of those parents who made that choice
for just about the same reason that you criticize.
In fact, my parents did the same for me when they moved to Baltimore from
Silver Spring Maryland to send me to what was then a chassidishe cheder
Sheeris Hapleita.  My respect for the importance of Secular Education did
come from my parents and not from the schools that I attended.  The
Rationale for this is something that you allude to in your post, and I
quote, "But... this school has trouble attracting families like my own who
send 
to the "frumer" school. The dichotomy between the parents and faculty is 
widening every year.  The school is now attracting the type of parent 
that values secular education more than religious.  This school is 
starting to resemble the more left wing school where they treat Gemorah 
like just another subject."
My parents felt that the bbest way for me to learn Limudei Kodesh was only
to be found in the "right wing" school.  Limudei Chol I may not be have as
good an education, but there would be time to make up for that (I graduated
from Johns Hopkins, and I am completing Medical School at the University of
Illinois).  For the same reason I want to send my child to the school where
there Limudei Kodesh will be the strongest.
You also wrote "these paarents don't give a moments thought to the fact
that the school's hashkafa will be different 
than their own and that that will create potential conflict between the 
lives they see in thir own home and the hashkafa they learn in school."
This is not true at all, I have given it much more than just a moments
thought, and I think about it all the time, and my son and daughter already
know that their parents and their morahs don't always agree on religious
issues, but that can also be a way to educate children to be tolerant and
respectful of other people's way of life.  My children, I hope and pray
will learn and understand that their parents aren't any "less frum" than we
should be; because we have made consious decisions to live the way we do,
decisions based on our understanding of Ratzon Hashem, and that we sent
them to the schools that we did because we felt that this was the best
environement for them to learn about yiras shamayim.
Shaul Weinreb

See you are all keeping up the level of debate on sundry topics in my
absence. Only have brief access to e-mail this evening. Have just spent
one of the most extraordinary and exhilirating Shabbosos in my life having
participated in organizing and leading the first ever Orthodox Minyan in
Kalispell, Montana (technically, the suburb of Lakeside). Highly recommend
you all consider this kind of venture - for which there really should be
massive funding! We were able to be mekadesh shem shomayim in a manner far
above and beyond that which is normally possible. More (I hope) to follow.
Will be back in Chicago with greater access after 17 Tammuz.

KT!

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

I too highly recommend the book published by Aronson and edited by
R. J. Schachter.
Besides the article of Rav Lichtenstein there is an article by
Blidstein on early attitutdes to secular studies.
There is an article by David Berger about the Rishonim and by Shnayer
Leiman on the attitude of the german rabbanim.

Though the book is not cheap it is today the best discussion of
the use of secular studies.

Eli Turkel

I get the impression that often the chareidi tshuve movements in Israel
are motivated by politics. I do not mean simply to increase the number
of chareidim but as a tool to say to the secular world 'it can't be so
good on your side of the fence since you all seem to be coming over to
us'. But even more disturbing is when the tshuve movement is a means for
self deception. Often individuals with talent but with little prospect
for a career in the yeshive world and also without the will to hold down
a job or ability to prosper in commerce vent their frustration at
their inability to channel their talents in the wider world by
convincing themselves that in reality the majority of 'fraye' want to be
frum if only they were shown the way and were ridded of the negative
influence of the secular media.

A career is then carved out in the kiruv movements which, besides being
profitable, allows the individuals concerned to convince themselves of
the enlightened life they must be leading since all these 'fraye' are so
eager to join up. These new converts are then paraded in front of
audiences telling their life story as if they have seen what 'that' life
is all about and they 'know' that it all pales in the light of the
Torah.

Even when people have the best intentions crude methods are often used
to attract baalei tshuve. These include Torah codes, pseudo sciences and
other forms of quackery which are supposed to 'prove' to anybody who
cares to look that we are in the right. I once put it to one of these
mekarvim why if it is all so obvious did the rambam bother with moreh
nvukhim and the khovas halvoves with shar hyikhud. It is difficult to
argue with these well meaning individuals since what answer does one
give to the argument that the net result is more shomrei shabes and more
tfilin wearing heads. Arguments for intellectual rigour and long term
effects have little impact.

This differs significantly from the Tshuve movements outside Israel. I
am not acquainted with the US but here in the UK the main kiruv movement
is Project SEED which as far as I know is staffed by volunteers baalei
batim who give from their time to teach people yidishkayt. The
transition is not as extreme as it is in Israel and the mekurovim, by
dealing with baalei batim, get to see a softer more humane approach
rather than a harsh intolerant one. As it happens an Israeli born Rabbi
recently started working in one of the areas where there are many
non-orthodox families and immediately there were posters with rakhmone
litslons all over them and the terrible nature of the Jewish schools
currently servicing them and so on.

I am not suggesting that all tshuve movements in Israel are one way and
all outside Israel another, but this difference of approach, along with,
I suppose, other factors, could very well be why professionals are put
off by the Israeli tshuve movements.

David Herskovic

In a now infamous comment, I wrote:
>
><< 
> Anyone with an objective view will agree that there is no comparison between
> commitment to Torah among graduates of e.g. a Ner Israel Baltimore versus,
> say, a Torah Academy of Bergen County. Is one who opts for the former a
> hypocrite if his hashkafa is closer to the latter? 

with many (cogent) negative replies such as Joel Rich's:
>  >>
>Dear Arnie,
>With all due respect, as a subjective father of a graduate of the Tora 
>Academy of Bergen County, I can tell you that anecdotally TABC graduates  
>boys whose commitment to Tora(as I understand that to be defined in the all 
>inclusive sense of a commitment to doing the ratzon hashem all day on a daily 
>basis) is at an extremely high level. 

I have to sincerely apologize for the haste at which I made this statement.
Commitment is of course a highly subjective issue - many students of TABC
indeed display more commitment than students of Ner Israel, and vice versa.
My purpose was not to malign TABC.

Yet, at the same time one must admit there is a very clear difference
between these institutions at least on a quantitative level. Does TABC give
shiur on Sunday? Is there a mandatory night seder? How many hours of limudei
kodesh are there each day? Does this issue of quantity not enter in to the
decision as to which high school to send your son? 

The mistake in my post was mixing the quantitative and qualitative aspects
of this commitment. More Torah does not always translate to greater
commitment to Torah. 
Arnie Lustiger

Saul Weinreb wrote:

> I live here in Chicago, and I am one of those parents who made that choice
> for just about the same reason that you criticize.
> In fact, my parents did the same for me when they moved to Baltimore from
> Silver Spring Maryland to send me to what was then a chassidishe cheder
> Sheeris Hapleita.  My respect for the importance of Secular Education did
> come from my parents and not from the schools that I attended.  The
> Rationale for this is something that you allude to in your post, and I
> quote, "But... this school has trouble attracting families like my own who
> send
> to the "frumer" school. The dichotomy between the parents and faculty is
> widening every year.  The school is now attracting the type of parent
> that values secular education more than religious.  This school is
> starting to resemble the more left wing school where they treat Gemorah
> like just another subject."
> My parents felt that the bbest way for me to learn Limudei Kodesh was only
> to be found in the "right wing" school.  Limudei Chol I may not be have as
> good an education, but there would be time to make up for that (I graduated
> from Johns Hopkins, and I am completing Medical School at the University of
> Illinois).  For the same reason I want to send my child to the school where
> there Limudei Kodesh will be the strongest.
> You also wrote "these paarents don't give a moments thought to the fact
> that the school's hashkafa will be different
> than their own and that that will create potential conflict between the
> lives they see in thir own home and the hashkafa they learn in school."
> This is not true at all, I have given it much more than just a moments
> thought, and I think about it all the time, and my son and daughter already
> know that their parents and their morahs don't always agree on religious
> issues, but that can also be a way to educate children to be tolerant and
> respectful of other people's way of life.  My children, I hope and pray
> will learn and understand that their parents aren't any "less frum" than we
> should be; because we have made consious decisions to live the way we do,
> decisions based on our understanding of Ratzon Hashem, and that we sent
> them to the schools that we did because we felt that this was the best
> environement for them to learn about yiras shamayim.
> Shaul Weinreb

Forgive me if I disagree with you, Shaul.  I believe that you are one of 
those rare exceptions that belong to a family that thinks about the 
consequences of their actions, vis-a-vis choosing a day school for their 
chidren.  Indeed, in your response to my post you explain that you've 
learned your approach to Yahadus at home.  You parents choice was made 
solely on their perception of the level of learning and they knew that 
the home environment would instill in you a healthy respect for limudei 
chol as evidenced by your attendance in meducal school.  Your parents 
are NOT guilty of being sheep.  I was reffering to the many parents I 
know who basicly shrug when I ask them why they send their kids to the 
right wing school.  

I know that you gave it a great deal of analysis and made your decision 
based on research and knowledge, not on what your friends do. 

But, beware of those religious differences between the parents and 
teachers. Also, I strongly suspect that at least some of the faculty at 
Yeshiva Tifferes Tzvi (Right Wing) are not as tolerant as you are of 
other, non-yeshivish, streams of orthodoxy and this attitude is picked 
up and absorbed, probably suliminally, by the students at a very early 
age and is difficult to expunge later in life.

HM

Does anyboy discuss Barbecuing Fish on a grill usually used for Meat?  I am not 
talking at the same time, rather I refer to the likelihood of there being left 
over "meat" grease from previous grilling.

On a related note, I used to burn my chometz Erev Peach on my gas grill.  I was 
wondering what to do with left over pizza which is milchig.  Will doing beiur 
chometz  to milchig pizza using a fleishig  Barbecue pose a problem, or not?

Rich Wolpoe 

*********************


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