Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 093

Thursday, June 17 1999

• Re: New e-mail list: Jewish medical ethics and medical halacha
• Hypothesis, Chazal were 3000 years ahead of their time
• Hazal, Herem and Embryology
• Re: Nishtaneh Hatevah
• Re: Hazal, Herem and Embryology
• Re: Hazal, Herem and Embryology
• Re: Hazal, Herem and Embryology
• Re: To have a State or Not to have a State
• Re: To have a State or Not to have a State
• Re: To have a State or Not to have a State
• Re: Fish and Meat
• Re: R. Elazar Hakapar Berebi
• Re: Hazal, Herem and Embryology
• Re: To have a State or not to have a State
• Re: To have a State or not to have a State
• Pikuach Nefesh!

I think that the main difference is that my brother-in-law's list
will be devoted solely to frum health care professionals in training
(e.g., medical, dental, PA or nursing students, medical residents,
etc.).  I will also ask Eddie for more clarification of any other
differences between his list and Nehorai.

--- "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> There already is such a list, Nehorai. Their address appears in the
> cc
> section of the address above.
> 
> On Wed, 16 Jun 1999, Moshe Feldman wrote:
> 
> > My brother-in-law, Rabbi Dr. Edward Reichman ("Eddie" to all who
> know
> > him), is starting an e-mail list dedicated to Jewish medical
> ethics
> > and medical halacha.  It is a group devoted to frum health care
> > professionals in training (e.g., medical, dental, PA or nursing
> > students, medical residents, etc.). It is in its early stages and
> > will begin more formally in the fall.
> > 
> > All interested people can e-mail saraneddie@aol.com for
> information.
> > 
_________________________________________________________
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Here's a simplistic categorization of what Chazal (up to end of TB) knew wrt to 
science, tehcnology, etc.:
1) Advanced Scientifc Conclusions AND their coresponding rationale.
2) Advanced Scientific Conclusions without the underlying explanation.
3) Contemporary Science, plus intuitive (ruach hakodesh?) speculation.

I believe that there are cases of all 3 in the TB.  IOW seomtimes Chazal were 
way ahead of us and sometimes they know WHAT to do, but not WHY, and sometimes 
they were making merely educated guesses with a bit of siyyato dishmaya (as 
mentioned).

Question: How does one distinguish in which category does an individual case 
belong?
Answer:  I guess that's up to the poseik.  And the posiek might use proofs as to
which category it is, or rely upon a sensitivity or intuition as to how Chazal 
framed their statement (ie. as fact or as speculation).

My hashkofo would be to our best to be reconcile any given chazal with our 
current understanding of metzius.

Rich Wolpoe

RYGB writes:
>>On Tue, 15 Jun 1999, Moshe Feldman wrote:

>> incorrect.  OTOH, I have no conceptual problem in believing that some
>> halachot found in chazal are incorrect because chazal were human and did
>> not understand science the way we do.

>Without getting into specifics, I am curious as to the source of this
>belief expressed by REC and RMF. R' Aharon Soloveitchik told me that he
>would, were it in his power, place anyone who held said belief (including
>the Pachad Yitzchok - R' Lampornati himself) in Cherem.

I do not mind defending propositions that I have espoused, but I have
neither the time nor the inclination to defend statements of others.

The proposition that I expressed is that Hazal's knowledge of embryology
was limited or, put less delicately, wrong.  I stand by that position,
and I have yet to hear a fact-based refutation thereof.  Moreover, I
believe that the imputation of supernatural omniscience to Hazal is both
demonstrably wrong and theologically suspect.  Besides, Hazal themselves
did not view themselves as infallible in these matters, as the Gemara in
Pesahim indicates with respect to astronomy.  Although I think it
understandable how this myth came into being, it is still a myth.

Please note that I have not discussed the more complicated issue of
Halakhah.  I do not think that Hazal were -- halilah -- "incorrect" in
matters of Halakhah; indeed, I believe by definition they cannot be.
Halakhah cannot be correct or incorrect; it is the law and it is
binding.  There is nothing more to say.  A particular halakhah may be
based on faulty science, but that does not change its obligatory
character.  [RMF may well agree with this point; I will leave it to him
to clarify his terminology.]  That having been said, I think that, where
current scientific knowledge (as opposed to theory) indicates, we should
be mahmir beyond the line of Hazal.  Thus, for example, I would prohibit
the killing of a kinah on Shabbat.  Indeed, I consider this a much more
firmly rooted humrah than many others that are widespread today.  But,
as a general rule, I do not believe that one can be mekil on the basis
of superior scientific knowledge.

Not coincidentally, this humra yes/kullah no approach was enunciated by
my rebbe, R. Aharon Lichtenstein.  In this context, he too cited the
gemara in Pesahim as evidence that Hazal did not attribute to themselves
perfect scientific knowledge.

I do not know if this clarification has saved me from herem or not.  But
I am confident that it should.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

In a message dated 6/15/99 11:30:58 PM EST, RSW writes:

>  Reb Yitzchok Zirkind writes: "Rachmonoh Litzlan, however we do apply the
>  rule of "Nishtanu Hativi'im" see in the end of the Sdei Chemed the
>  Birzanher Rav's Kllolim under Nishtanu Hativi'im."

Actually I was going to make a correction, it is not in the Darkei Sholom 
from the Birzahner Rav, rather it is later in Kllolei Haposkim from R' Moshe 
Avigdor Chaikin under Teva, see also Sdei Chemed Kllolim Tes Kllal 5, also 
see Lkutei Sichos vol. 23, Sicha (3) for Chag Hashovuo's, (I didn't get to 
check the ET perhaps under Teva).

>  Please tell us what he writes there I don't have a Sdei Chemed and I am
>  curious to find out.

It is basically a compilation of Marei Mkomos in S"O and Poskim who discuss 
the issue, if there is interest I will type it out.

>  Incidentally, my great grandfather was a Talmid Muvhak
>  of the Brezhaner Rav.  He used to tell my father at the Pesach Seder how
>  the Brezhaner Rav used to be mekayem the mitzvos of the evening.  My father
>  remembers how his grandfather used to imitate his Rebbe (with whom he used
>  to spend the pesach yom tov for many years) and before eating Matzah he
>  would pick up a small olive size piece of matzah and say, "Does this look
>  like a zayis?" then he would nod his head and eat eat it L'Shem Mitzvah.

Thanks for this testimonial.

>  My greatgrandfather would tell him this story every time the subject of the
>  proper shiur kezayis would arise  in conversation.  This sort of flies in
>  the face of what I was told by many people during my yeshiva days that
>  nishtaneh hatevah and that "our olives" are not the same as "their olives"
>  were.

See Arichus in Shiurei Torah from R' A. Chaim No'oh, as he holds also that 
they didn't change.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

--- "Clark, Eli" <clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM> wrote:
> The proposition that I expressed is that Hazal's knowledge of
> embryology
> was limited or, put less delicately, wrong.  I stand by that
> position,
> and I have yet to hear a fact-based refutation thereof.  Moreover,
> I
> believe that the imputation of supernatural omniscience to Hazal is
> both
> demonstrably wrong and theologically suspect.  Besides, Hazal
> themselves
> did not view themselves as infallible in these matters, as the
> Gemara in
> Pesahim indicates with respect to astronomy.  Although I think it
> understandable how this myth came into being, it is still a myth.
> 
> Please note that I have not discussed the more complicated issue of
> Halakhah.  I do not think that Hazal were -- halilah -- "incorrect"
> in
> matters of Halakhah; indeed, I believe by definition they cannot
> be.
> Halakhah cannot be correct or incorrect; it is the law and it is
> binding.  There is nothing more to say.  A particular halakhah may
> be
> based on faulty science, but that does not change its obligatory
> character.  [RMF may well agree with this point; I will leave it to
> him
> to clarify his terminology.]  

I do in fact agree with REC on this point.  My statement that their
halakhot were "incorrect" should be interpreted to mean that they
based their halakhot on faulty science.  That does not necessarily
detract from the binding nature of chazal's halakhot, but in some
cases (especially l'chumrah--case of kinah) it might.

Of the course this is related to why the Talmud & Shulchan Arukh are
binding on latter-day Achronim (i.e., the issue that "gadol b'chochma
u'vminyan" applies only to takanot/gzeirot, not reasoned psakim). 
(See my previous posts on this issue.)

> That having been said, I think that,
> where
> current scientific knowledge (as opposed to theory) indicates, we
> should
> be mahmir beyond the line of Hazal.  Thus, for example, I would
> prohibit
> the killing of a kinah on Shabbat.  Indeed, I consider this a much
> more
> firmly rooted humrah than many others that are widespread today. 
> But,
> as a general rule, I do not believe that one can be mekil on the
> basis
> of superior scientific knowledge.
> 
> Not coincidentally, this humra yes/kullah no approach was
> enunciated by
> my rebbe, R. Aharon Lichtenstein.  In this context, he too cited
> the
> gemara in Pesahim as evidence that Hazal did not attribute to
> themselves
> perfect scientific knowledge.
> 

I agree with this approach as well.  The question is whether the
chumrah is just a chumrah or me'ikar ha'din.  I would argue the
latter.

Kol tuv,
Moshe
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In a message dated 6/16/99 12:15:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM writes:

<< 
 Please note that I have not discussed the more complicated issue of
 Halakhah.  I do not think that Hazal were -- halilah -- "incorrect" in
 matters of Halakhah; indeed, I believe by definition they cannot be.
 Halakhah cannot be correct or incorrect; it is the law and it is
 binding.  There is nothing more to say.  A particular halakhah may be
 based on faulty science, but that does not change its obligatory
 character.  [RMF may well agree with this point; I will leave it to him
 to clarify his terminology.]  That having been said, I think that, where
 current scientific knowledge (as opposed to theory) indicates, we should
 be mahmir beyond the line of Hazal.  Thus, for example, I would prohibit
 the killing of a kinah on Shabbat.  Indeed, I consider this a much more
 firmly rooted humrah than many others that are widespread today.  But,
 as a general rule, I do not believe that one can be mekil on the basis
 of superior scientific knowledge.
 
 Not coincidentally, this humra yes/kullah no approach was enunciated by
 my rebbe, R. Aharon Lichtenstein.  In this context, he too cited the
 gemara in Pesahim as evidence that Hazal did not attribute to themselves
 perfect scientific knowledge.
 
 I do not know if this clarification has saved me from herem or not.  But
 I am confident that it should.
 
 Kol tuv,
 
 Eli Clark
  >>
What is the rationale for the chumra yes kula no approach? If its 
"Lchatchila", do you also understand that birur eliyahu(referred to a number 
of times in the gemora I believe) will only be mvarer facts lchumra but not 
lkula?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

In a message dated 6/16/99 11:15:52 AM EST, clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM writes:

>  Besides, Hazal themselves
>  did not view themselves as infallible in these matters, as the Gemara in
>  Pesahim indicates with respect to astronomy.  

As I have mentioned many times see the Gilyon Hashas there from the Shita 
Mkubetzes.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 6/15/99 11:53:23 PM EST, EDTeitz@aol.com writes:

> Chevron 1929.  A few years BEFORE the Medina.  Still think we're safe?  And 
>  how about all the other examples?  From one line you discard the rest of 
the 
> 
>  questions?  If Entebbe was the ONLY objection you could raise, it still 
> seems 
>  to me that the good (and protection) of the Medina FAR outweighs the 
risks, 
>  aside from all the hakaras ha-tov that the right wing owes all the 
chilonim 
>  whose tax shekalim they use to further their own anti-Medina agenda.  
Shame 
>  on the right wing!
>  
>  
That is exactly why I said I was not getting involved in the issue, it was 
ONLY an upshlog to that one line.

I would also like to make a point of the Hakoras Hatov the Chilonim should 
have for the Limud Hatorah of the Chareidim (right center or left wingers), 
which sustains them, as the Gemoroh says how the 70 nations would have set up 
legions to protect the Beis Hamikdash if they new what the 70 Porim did for 
them, (and here too I am not getting involved with the issue in general)

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 6/16/99 1:16:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Yzkd@aol.com 
writes:

<< 
 I would also like to make a point of the Hakoras Hatov the Chilonim should 
 have for the Limud Hatorah of the Chareidim (right center or left wingers), 
 which sustains them, as the Gemoroh says how the 70 nations would have set 
up 
 legions to protect the Beis Hamikdash if they new what the 70 Porim did for 
 them, (and here too I am not getting involved with the issue in general)
 
 Kol Tuv
 
 Yitzchok Zirkind >>

I would think that our hakarat hatov is not dependent on someone else being 
makir tov in us (I will bli neder look into this). If our lack of hakarat 
hatov falls into the category of an aveira (another interesting question), 
then if its an aveira which is mitchalel shem shamayim(we've debated the 
definition in a prior thread) to the point that people say "ashrei bnai adam 
shelo lamdu tora"(see shut tashbatz 1:33), then it seems to be a particular 
problem.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

In a message dated 6/16/99 12:28:52 PM EST, Joelirich@aol.com writes:

> I would think that our hakarat hatov is not dependent on someone else being 
>  makir tov in us

I didn't imply otherwise.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

Unrelated to the correctness of chazal's science, I think your halachik statement
is off.
I believe the sakana (and hence the issur) is only if the meat and fish are
cooked together.

Ari Zivotofsky



EDTeitz@aol.com wrote:

> So all the scientific data quoted are irrelevant.  One has to show a
> danger only when eaten simultaneously.
>
> Eliyahu Teitz
> Jewish Educational Center
> Elizabeth, NJ

Rabbi Bechhoffer wrote:

<<<
"Berebi" does not mean "Son of Rebi". It is not a contraction. It is a
word unto itself.
>>>


Noach Witty wrote (off line):

<<<
It's pronounced be-RIBI or Be-RABBEE.  Indeed, I recall that there are
places in shas or midrash where it's printed with a yud after the raish.
Thus, the whole word means gadol hador.  The "BE" does not mean "son of" (as
it may when we call a non rabbi for an aliya "be-reb") which may be your
misconception.
>>>

Thanks for the explanation.  However we do find instances where 
"berebi" means "the son of rebi" as in R. Judah berebi Ilai.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               !
!
!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              

I certainly apologize for attributing to you an opinion that I incorrectly
thought you shared with others. Nevertheless, I am afraid RAS would still
have you in Cherem, as he felt that one had no right to be machmir over
Chazal either.

Nevertheless, if RAL is of this opinion, you certainly have a smach!

On Wed, 16 Jun 1999, Clark, Eli wrote:  > Please note that I have not
discussed the more complicated issue of > Halakhah.  I do not think that
Hazal were -- halilah -- "incorrect" in > matters of Halakhah; indeed, I
believe by definition they cannot be.  > Halakhah cannot be correct or
incorrect; it is the law and it is > binding.  There is nothing more to
say.  A particular halakhah may be > based on faulty science, but that
does not change its obligatory > character.  [RMF may well agree with this
point; I will leave it to him > to clarify his terminology.] That having
been said, I think that, where > current scientific knowledge (as opposed
to theory) indicates, we should > be mahmir beyond the line of Hazal. 
Thus, for example, I would prohibit > the killing of a kinah on Shabbat. 
Indeed, I consider this a much more > firmly rooted humrah than many
others that are widespread today.  But, > as a general rule, I do not
believe that one can be mekil on the basis > of superior scientific
knowledge.  > > Not coincidentally, this humra yes/kullah no approach was
enunciated by > my rebbe, R. Aharon Lichtenstein.  In this context, he too
cited the > gemara in Pesahim as evidence that Hazal did not attribute to
themselves > perfect scientific knowledge.  > > I do not know if this
clarification has saved me from herem or not.  But > I am confident that
it should.  > > Kol tuv, > > Eli Clark >

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

In a message dated 6/15/99 1:59:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

<< 
 Right. And similar statements can be made about the Kosel. My point
 precisely. 
 
 YGB >>

I don't think you can point to any specific holy site to make the same claim. 
I was really speaking about the political entity of Medinat Yisrael. The 
state started achieving the things I mentioned even when the Kotel was not in 
our hands.

Jordan 

Agreed. The magnitude of the State's indirect accomplishments may be
greater than that of the Kosel. I was using it as an example.
Additionally, my point was to elicit response that the State has, at least
for some, inherent value independent of fringe benefits. Ditto for the
possession of the Kosel.

On Wed, 16 Jun 1999 TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 6/15/99 1:59:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:
> 
> << 
>  Right. And similar statements can be made about the Kosel. My point
>  precisely. 
>  
>  YGB >>
> 
> I don't think you can point to any specific holy site to make the same claim. 
> I was really speaking about the political entity of Medinat Yisrael. The 
> state started achieving the things I mentioned even when the Kotel was not in 
> our hands.
> 
> Jordan 
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

I take the liberty to fwd some info in a matter of Pikuach Nefesh. May our 
efforts be blessed by the Poideh Shvuyim, Amen.

Subj:	 JEWISH-ANNOUNCE digest 184
Date:	6/16/99 11:04:41 PM EST
From:	jewish-announce@shamash.org (Announcements about New Jewish web sites 
& lists & events)
Sender:	owner-jewish-announce@shamash.org
To:	jewish-announce@shamash.org (Announcements about New Jewish web sites 
& lists & events)

			    JEWISH-ANNOUNCE Digest 184

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Fwd: Is this OK?
	by Ruthconnie@aol.com
  2) <snipped>
  3) Fwd: Iranian Jews
	by Wendy Weiss-Simon <wendyavi@hotmail.com>

----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ruthconnie@aol.com
Message-ID: <a8bde35d.24987951@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 23:51:45 EDT
Subject: Fwd: Is this OK?
To: jewish-announce@shamash.org
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--part1_a8bde35d.24987951_boundary
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Please post ASAP. thank you.

--part1_a8bde35d.24987951_boundary
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Content-Disposition: inline

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Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:09:53 -0400
To: Ruthconnie@aol.com
From: Laura Shulman <laurashulman@hebrewcollege.edu>
Subject: Re: Is this OK?
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

this looks good. now just post it like you did last time and it should be
in Jewish-Announce in a day or two.
Laura Shulman
jewish-announce co-owner


>In a message dated 6/14/99 11:34:48 AM, laurashulman@hebrewcollege.edu 
writes:
>
><<An old colleague of mine at Amnesty International has sent this alert
>>regarding the arrest and possible execution of 13 Jewish community
>>leaders
>>in Iran.
>>
>>Lest you think that such appeals are fruitless -- I have personal
>>experience
>>of distributing these on the internet and on two occasions forcing the
>>release of Jewish prisoners in Uzbekistan.  Iran is far more difficult
>>--
>>but of one thing I know for certain, and that is the result of doing
>>nothing.  Our action may be the only chance these people have.
>>
>>I have no special information on this case beyond what is written in
>>this
>>alert.  I do not know the background of this case, but it is highly
>>unlikely
>>that 13 rabbis, religious teachers and community leaders were spying for
>>Israel and the U.S.  Amnesty has traditionally been conservative in
>>distribution of such alerts - the integrity of their information is, in
>>general, high.
>>
>>I have received permission from Amnesty to distribute this widely, so
>>please
>>do so (in its entirety).  The last time I did this, we generated about
>>20,000 letters and telegrams to the Uzbekistan government -- I know they
>>can
>>have a tremendous impact.
>>
>>Thanks in advance for your help.
>>
>>- David Waksberg
>>
>>
>>06/08/99 12:09 PM
>>
>>To:   Urgent Action Network/AIUSA/Amnesty International@AIUSA
>>cc:    (bcc: Maureen Greenwood/AIUSA/Amnesty International)
>>Subject:  UA 133/99 on Iran
>>
>>U R G E N T    A C T I O N   A P P E A L
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------
>>
>>8 June 1999
>>
>>UA 133/99                     Legal Concern / Possible Death Penalty
>>
>>IRAN
>>Navid Balazadeh, 16
>>Nejat Beroukhim, 35
>>Farhad Seleh, 30
>>Shahrokh Paknahad, 29
>>Ramin Farzam, 35
>>Farzad Kashi, 30
>>Faramarz Kashi, 34 (brother of above)
>>Aasher Zadmehr (aka Shekasteh Band), 48
>>Nasser Yaghoub Levy Haim (Leveeim), 45
>>Javeed Beit Yaghoub, 40
>>Ramin Nemati, possibly 22
>>Danny Tefileen, possibly 28
>>Omid Tefileen, possibly 25 (brother of above)
>>
>>
>>Amnesty International is concerned that the 13 people named above
>>may be at risk of unfair trial and could face the death penalty if
>>convicted. News reports citing the Iranian authorities state that they
>>have been accused of spying for Israel and the US, and are to be
>>prosecuted in a Revolutionary Court on espionage charges.
>>Espionage carries the death penalty in Iran. Lawyers and observers
>>are excluded from trials at Revolutionary Courts, where trials often
>>fall
>>short of minimum international fair trial standards.
>>
>>All 13, who lived in the Jewish communities in the cities of Shiraz and
>>Isfahan, were arrested around 21 March 1999, and are detained in
>>Shiraz. They are thought to include rabbis, religious teachers and
>>community activists. Most have been denied family visits and legal
>>representation, and no bail has been set. There has also been no
>>official explanation of their initial arrest in March.
>>
>>BACKGROUND INFORMATION
>>Iran's Jewish population of 20,000 to 30,000 is one of the largest in
>>the Middle East. Certain religious minorities are officially recognised
>>in Iran, including Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians.
>>
>>Espionage is punishable by death in Iran. In 1997, two people were
>>hanged after they were convicted on espionage charges.
>>
>>RECOMMENDED ACTION: Please send
>>telegrams/faxes/express/airmail letters:
>>- seeking urgent clarification of the charges brought against all 13
>>people;
>>- seeking assurances that all 13 will be allowed access to family and
>>to independent legal representation of their choice;
>>- as all 13 have been held in pre-trial detention for approximately 70
>>days already, seeking assurances that trial proceedings will
>>commence within a reasonable time.
>>
>>APPEALS TO:
>>Leader of the Islamic Republic:
>>His Excellency Ayatollah Sayed 'Ali Khamenei
>>The Presidency
>>Palestine Avenue
>>Azerbaijan Intersection
>>Tehran, Islamic Republic of Iran
>>Telegrams:     Ayatollah Khamenei, Tehran, Iran
>>Faxes:         011 98 21 650 203 (via Interior Ministry, ask for fax to
>>be forwarded)
>>Salutation:    Your Excellency
>>
>>President:
>>His Excellency
>>Hojjatoleslam val Moslemin Sayed Mohammad Khatami
>>The Presidency
>>Palestine Avenue
>>Azerbaijan Intersection
>>Tehran, The Islamic Republic of Iran
>>Telegrams:     President Khatami, Tehran, Iran
>>Faxes:         011 98 21 674 790 (via Foreign Affairs, ask for fax to
>>be forwarded)
>>Salutation:    Your Excellency
>>
>>Head of the Judiciary:
>>His Excellency Ayatollah Mohammad Yazdi
>>Ministry of Justice
>>Park-e Shahr
>>Tehran, Islamic Republic of Iran
>>Telegrams:     Head of the Judiciary, Tehran, Iran
>>Salutation:    Your Excellency
>>
>>Minister of the Interior:
>>His Excellency Moussavi Lari
>>Ministry of the Interior
>>Dr Fatemi Avenue
>>Tehran, Islamic Republic of Iran
>>Telegrams:     Interior Minister, Tehran, Iran
>>Faxes:         011 98 21 899 547/650 203
>>Salutation:    Your Excellency
>>
>>COPIES TO:
>>Minister of Foreign Affairs:
>>His Excellency Kamal Kharrazi
>>Ministry of Foreign Affairs
>>Sheikh Abdolmajid Keshk-e Mesri Avenue
>>Tehran, Islamic Republic of Iran
>>Faxes:         011 98 21 674 790
>>
>>Mr Mohammad Hassan Zia'i-Far
>>Secretary, Islamic Human Rights Commission
>>PO Box 13165-137
>>Tehran, Islamic Republic of Iran
>>Faxes:    011 98 21 204 0541
>>
>>In lieu of an embassy, please send to:
>>Iranian Interests Section
>>2209 Wisconsin Avenue NW
>>Washington DC 20007
>>
>>Please send appeals immediately. Check with the Colorado office
>>between 9:00 am and 6:00 pm, Mountain Time, weekdays only, if
>>sending appeals after July 20, 1999.
>>
>>This information is from Amnesty International's research
>>headquarters in London, England. A.I. is an independent worldwide
>>movement working for the international protection of human rights. It
>>seeks the release of people detained because of their beliefs, color,
>>sex, ethnic origin, language or religious creed, provided they have not
>>used nor advocated violence. These are termed prisoners of
>>conscience. It works for fair and prompt trials for all political
>>prisoners and works on behalf of such people detained without
>>charge or trial. It opposes the death penalty, extra-judicial executions
>>(political killings), 'disappearances' and torture or other cruel,
>>inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment of all prisoners
>>without reservation. Amnesty International promotes awareness of
>>and adherance to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and
>>other internationally recognized human rights instruments, the
>>values enshrined in them and the indivisibility and interdependence
>>of all human rights and freedoms.
>>
>>Please do not repost this appeal to any part of the Internet
>>without prior permission from Amnesty International. Thank you for
>>your help with this appeal.
>>
>>Please read the monthly Urgent Action Network Newsletter posted on
>>the web at: http://www.amnesty-USA.org/urgact/newslett.html
>>
>>Urgent Action Network
>>Amnesty International USA
>>PO Box 1270
>>Nederland CO 80466-1270>>




--part1_a8bde35d.24987951_boundary--


------------------------------
------------------------------
Message-ID: <19990616073254.61002.qmail@hotmail.com>
From: Wendy Weiss-Simon <wendyavi@hotmail.com>
Subject: Fwd: Iranian Jews
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:32:51 IDT
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed




Subject: Iranian Jews
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 22:22:21 EDT


There is an electronic petition at:

   http://www.vjnews.com/iranpetition.htm

for the release of the 13 Jews arrested over two months ago in Iran on
charges of espionage for the United States and Israel.  Both countries
have denied any such connection with these people, who are all rabbis,
teachers, and one shochet.  The Iranians hanged two other Jews in 1997
on similar charges.

Please sign this petition and forward the URL to your friends so that
they can do the same.

Thank you.


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Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


------------------------------

End of JEWISH-ANNOUNCE Digest 184
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