Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 072

Wednesday, June 2 1999

• Hypothesis, the Gemoro may err in Metzius
• Re: Avodah V3 #71
• Re: Mishnah Berurah -- not pesak?
• Re: Heating Metal
• Re: More on L"H issues
• Mishno Bruro
• When bad things happen to good people
• ikkarim
• fyi--heretical sects
• Electricity
• daf yomi
• Re: Avodah V3 #71
• Re: Avodah V3 #71
• Hypothesis, the Gemoro may err in Metzius
• Kiddsh levana
• Tefillah--concentration
• Tefillah--Flirting with G-d
• Re: daf yomi
• Re: Avodah V3 #71
• Re: daf yomi
• Re: Tefillah--concentration
• Lashon Horo

Exteend moderator:
 micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)

My criterion for change (which I am not asserting, I just have yet to hear 
a better proposal) is that one can prove that the shitah that became minhag
Yisrael is b'ta'us. Not that you can find a proof for the other shitah, since 
we aren't insisting the other shitah is less correct, just not the derech
we chose. Also, I'm not insisting that discrediting a proof or a rationale 
is sufficient. It must be proof of not-A.

That's a much easier thing to do in the harder sciences than in psychology.

Also, I should state clearly something I only implied earlier, that we appear 
to follow the Gr"a that multiple reasons exist for each issur/chiyuv, and 
therefore we lack the power to create heteirim in this way.<<

couldn't there be multiple criteria for a minhog?

EG Covering the mirrors at a shiv'o.

Maaseh shehoyo.  My neighbor (conservative) was visited by a conservative Rabbi 
during the sivo for her mother. That rabbi described the minhog of covering the 
mirrors as being plain old supersition legabei sheidim.  And that it was silly 
etc. (IOW minhog taus)

R ED Teitz told me once that he saw it as necessary to facilitate davening 
during shi'vo.

My impression is that it had to do with focusing on the niftar and NOT upon 
ourselves.

IOW, even a simple minhog may have multi-dimensions, and if ONE dimension is 
lost it does not necessarily indicate that the entire minhog is lost.

Rich Wolpoe

> 
> Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 14:34:35 +0300 (IDT)
> From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
> Subject: lason hara
> 
> > Further, it is quite possible that IF the CC was machmir in this
> > area, he did 
> > so applying  the rule of being strict with people who are not B'nei Torah 
> > 
> 
> I would argue the opposite. The chances of anyone who is not a Ben Torah to
> abstain from talking to his/her spouse about problems with the boss is zero.
===> Maybe that is why the Gemara says that "everyone" gets caught in Avak
L"H......


> I think this is much harder than a doctor/lawyer/rabbi not taling about
> a client/patient.

===> Any doctors / lawyers willing to comment about this??


>  There the rabbi is an outsider. Here a person is deeply upset about the
> way he
>  is treated in the office. It is almost unreasonable to expect such a
> person not
>  to talk to anyone about his problems. I think almost all psychiatrists
> were say that
>  speaking about ones feelings is very theraputic.  As already pointed
> out in many
>  office positions there is no way to speak about the problem without
> mentioning
> names, eg the fight is with the boss.
===> I *think* that venting is *sometimes* recognized as "to'eles".
However, it seems that this is an area of individual analysis and care.
Also, if the boss is NOT Jewish, do the same Issuring apply?
Also, if one DOES have frum bosses -- seems that working with Ho'che'ach
To'chee'ach may be an item worth exploring here.  Also, is there an issue
of Lifnei Ivair (in addition to potential other issues) when a Frum "Boss"
leaves a fellow Jew so distraught?


>  I would suspect that only people close to the level of CC could go
> through a lifetime
>  without complaining about their office workers. Of course if one sits
> in a kollel
> learning all day it is much easier.
===> I also think (but am not at all certain) that it is "easier" when you
have a Jewish Boss who shares your values and to whom there are other
approaches possible -- within halacha.  The growth of the "large
business", the need to maintain "impartiality", the sense that one CAN NOT
approach one's boss in the spirit of Ho'chee'ach To'chee'ach --- all of
those can be factors why this is so much more of an issue for "us" than in
the CC's time.  Comments? 




> 
> There is a story told that the Gra asked the Dubover Maggid to give him Musar.
> The maggid answered that the Gra was such a tzaddik because he wasn't a
> businessman. That being in business brought all sorts of problems that
> don't exist
> when sitting and learning. The Gra cried and admitted the Maggid was right.

===> In this context, the comment of the Netziv is interesting in that he
notes that Ona'as Devarim is common among merchants......

--Zvi



> 
> Eli Turkel

--- "Clark, Eli" <clarke@HUGHESHUBBARD.COM> wrote:
> It was recently asserted on the list that the Mishnah berurah is
> properly seen not as a sefer pesak, but a compendium.  I wonder.
> 
> I recently came across the MB's discussion of making tea in siman
> 318,
> and it seemed to me that R. Kagan is very much engaging in pesak. 
> Is it
> the position of anyone on this list that this passage should be
> viewed
> largely as an aberration in a non-pesak-oriented work?
> 

While Rich Wolpoe did make a comment about the MB as giving guidance
for how one should lead a lechatchila lifestyle, I assume that you
were referring to my comment, in which I stated:

<<In addition, I have been told
both by Rav Hershel Schachter and by Rav Dovid Weinberger (who quoted
Rav Moshe Feinstein) that the CC was not a posek and the MB was
written as a helpmate to learning Shulchan Arukh, not as a sefer
psak.>>

(I might add that I have been told that Rav Lichtenstein recommends
studying the Arukh HaShulchan over the MB for this reason.)

I agree with you that MB did give halachic advice.  Query whether
this is the same as psak (where one chooses a specific opinion and
rejects others, rather than merely say that the best way to act is
the following).  Many halachic compendia published today (e.g. the
Chol HaMoed book by R. Francus) merely summarize halachot and
specifically say that they are not sifrei psak.

In fact, Rav Schachter told me that the MB was written not only by
the CC but also by a committee of his talmidim.  This is how R.
Schachter explains certain contradictions in the MB.  

I am willing to concede that the MB's intent in writing his work is
debatable.  My main point, however, is that irrespective of the CC's
intent, the fact is that (aside from his seforim) he was not a posek
who paskened she'elot which were asked of him by people.  

Kol tuv,
Moshe
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--- EDTeitz@aol.com wrote:
> <<
> "I seem to recall that the Rambam's halacha with regard to heating
> metal is that "bishul" in the case of metal is defined as heating
> it
> until it glows. "
> >>
> 
> See Rambam Shabbos 12:1, where he defines heating metal in order to
> harden it 
> as mav'ir.  Also see Ra'avad there who asks why it isn't m'vashel.
> 

However, Rambam in Ch. 9 (and in Perush HaMishnayot) says that the
melachah is bishul (see also the Mishna Brurah and the Sha'ar
HaTziyun).  See the Lechem Mishneh on 12:1 where he suggests that
there is always an issue of bishul, and that sometimes there will be
mav'ir as well.

Kol tuv,
Moshe
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--- Zvi Weiss <weissz@idt.net> wrote:
> > From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
>
> > I have certainly heard this said about the Mishnah Brurah.
> 
> ===> I regret if I was unclear.  I was SPECIFICALLY referring to
> the
> "Shemiras Halashon" works.  About those, I have not encountered
> statements
> that they were "overly machmir".
> 
> Unlike the Mishneh Brurah -- where there appear to be "alternate"
> compendiums (e.g., Aruch Hashulchan, Chayei Adam, Kitzur, etc.) --
> there
> appears to be no "competition" to the works on Lashin Hara --
> Therefore, I
> repeat: is there a source for stating that THESE specific works are
> "overly machmir"?

Yes.  As I noted  in my previous posts, at least with regard to the
issue of newspapers it is pretty clear that klal yisrael has rejected
the CC's view.  Also, with respect to venting to one's wife where
there is to'elet, while the CC doesn't (to my knowledge) specifically
prohibit it, he does seem to create that impression (by not talking
about why it would be muttar); I have quoted some poskim permitting
it and I agree with Eli Turkel's post on the issue.

Also, if the CC's approach in his MB is not accepted by many poskim,
I would think that that same approach would not be accepted when the
CC wrote on a different topic.  The fact that no posek before--or
since-- has written about the laws of Lashon Hara does not mean that
the CC's views on the matter automatically binding on klal yisrael.

I wouldn't be surprised if poskim avoided criticizing the CC on LH
issues because (1) such poskim would be afraid that such criticism
might be viewed as legitimizing LH, which is so rampant, and (2)
shmirat haloshon is viewed as the issue which defines the CC's
tzidkut and no one wants to be viewed as even indirectly criticizing
the CC's tzidkut.

<snip> 
> ===> Has anyone made that statement in regard to the Sifrei
> Shemiras
> Halashon?  As I noted earlier, I came across material indicating
> that R.
> Yisroel Salanter accepted the material as definitive except in ONE
> specific case.
 
I don't believe that R. Salanter was considered a posek.  Certainly,
from a Mussar perspective, the Shemirat HaLashon has a lot to say.

> ===> There has been a repeated assertion of "I Believe..." since we
> are
> not dealing with Ikarei Ha'emunah, it would seem much more useful
> to cite
> a basis for claiming that the CC was "overly machmir" in his works
> on
> Lashon Harah.  

See above.

>Further,
> it is
> quite possible that IF the CC was machmir in this area, he did so
> applying
> the rule of being strict with people who are not B'nei Torah rather
> than
> as a "misapplication of halacha"...
>

I think it is a shame that certain poskim nowadays write seforim
claiming to summarize the halacha when in reality they are
consciously being machmir because they wish to be strict with people
who are not Bnei  Torah (often, these poskim write their real views
in the footnotes in terse Hebrew, which they assume will be
understood only by B'nei Torah).  Do you have any evidence that the
CC acted in this way?
 
> > 
> > Considering the general non-compliance of much of klal yisrael
> with
> > the halachot of lashon hara, I would think that it would be
> better to
> > create rules that people might be willing to abide by rather than
> > prohibiting newspapers and all speech to spouses and waiting for
> > people to just sigh at their inability to fulfill the laws of
> lashon
> > hara.
> 
> ===> One can make the same argument concerning Shemirat Shabbat or
> Arayot
> ow whatever -- dpending upon your sample of klal yisrael.  If the
> halacha
> is as the CC formulated it 
<snip>

But, you're switching the argument here.  I was reacting to your
suggestion that the CC was being machmir for non B'nei Torah and that
the halacha is really l'kulah.

Kol tuv,
Moshe
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Zvi Weiss:>>Unlike the Mishneh Brurah -- where there appear to be "alternate"
compendiums (e.g., Aruch Hashulchan, Chayei Adam, Kitzur, etc.) -- there
appears to be no "competition" to the works on Lashin Hara --<<

Totally tangential to the loshon horo thread, Zvi made a really important point 
here.

That is, the Yeshivishe Velt's devotion ot the MB is that it tends to be 
exclusive of the entire range of poskim.  It seems that the yeshiva world has 
been  so MB-centric,  that it ignories the lomdus of the Aruch hashulchan the 
Caf haHaim and  other contemporary poskim.  Without any denigration fo the MB, 
we'd like to see halocho and psak be more "well-rounded".

Illustration:
A sheliach tzibbur once told me that the phrase is: "hu yaasseh sholom oleinu" 
(IOW thecomma coems after "oleinu" and NOT after "sholom") was found in the MB. 
While ,I couldn't find it in the MB but I did find it in the mechaber! (See SA 
123:1)

With apologies to Billy Joel: "It's all MB to me"  <smile>

Rich Wolpoe

Can anyone direct me to an analysis/critique of Kushner's When bad things
happen to good people?

Thanks,

Gad Frenkel

>>
From: C1A1Brown@aol.com

>>>Tangentially, Do shut talk about the prohibitionm of saying Modim. Modim or 
Shema twice as a function of appearing to confirm "shtei reshuyos"?<<<

What is there is talk about after you read the Mishna?  

- -CB<<

See SA 121:2
    MB sk 5

Tangentially 
     SA 126:1
     MB sk 5



Rich Wolpoe 

in the current issue of the Kansas City jewish chronicle on-line edition is
an article about a ''chabad'' rabbi from milwaukee who ministers to
Russians, who teaches that the rebbe = G-d. He is appropriately condemned
for avodah zara, l'a.

I'd be curious how the frum community of Milwaukee has reacted.....

Me: >>> Also, I would say that 100 years ago, the issue was still being debated,
> IOW there was no consenus at THAT time, but there is now.  So even if
> you prove that Oruch Hashulchan was an electical mr. wizard, I would > still 
say that the consensus has overruled him by now. 
>

RYGB:
Consistent with your approach to halacha - but not necessarily with mine :-). 

Isn't this also consistent with the sheitel controversy of the early 19th 
century?  Didn't R. Moshe recommend not tampering with the kulos that have been 
accepted, even if they might be questionable?

Rich Wolpoe

Two short questions from Daf Yomi

1. Beitzah 4b: Rav Assi indicates that his generation was able to ascertain
   the correct date of Rosh Chodesh which the previous generations couldn't
   do (see Rashi)
   doesn't this go against nitkatnu hadorot?

2. Beitzah 7: The Gemara takes for granted that a hen will not lay a fertilized
   egg at night. This is used le-kulah that the egg was born before yomtov
   even when it is highly unlikely, eg the rooster is far away or across
   the river with only a rope bridge connecting the two sides.

    The Gemara doesn't explain how they knew this fact to such complete
    certainty that is is impossible even when facts seem to indicate
    otherwise. Physical observation is not likely to be 100% accurate.
    I find it hard to believe that the is a sinaitic tradition about when
    hens deliver eggs.

Kol Tuv,
Eli Turkel

>> Theoretically it should be half of the 29d 12h 793c after the molad, 
>when the moon begins to wane, And taking in consideration that (in most
cases) the time of the Molad is Yerusholayim time.  (perhaps in the Ezras
Torah Luach they adjust for this).
	I would have loved to take RYGB's suggestion to look it up in the ET
luach, but I had not updated since last year.  The ET luach does adjust, 
and I was looking for how to do it without the luach. I'm afraid you've
put me back where I started re:  practical approach.

Gershon

>>>>Someone asked me this week what the sof zman Kiddush Levana was for 
>this
>month. <<<
>
>See Sanhedrin 41b for the basics.
	As per previous posts on this thread,  I am not looking for the basics, 
just a practical how to.

Gershon

>> Theoretically it should be half of the 29d 12h 793c after the molad, 
>when the moon begins to wane, And taking in consideration that (in most
cases) the time of the Molad is Yerusholayim time.  (perhaps in the Ezras
Torah Luach they adjust for this).
	I would have loved to take RYGB's suggestion to look it up in the ET
luach, but I had not updated since last year.  The ET luach does adjust, 
and I was looking for how to do it without the luach. I'm afraid you've
put me back where I started re:  practical approach.

Gershon

>>>>Someone asked me this week what the sof zman Kiddush Levana was for 
>this
>month. <<<
>
>See Sanhedrin 41b for the basics.
	As per previous posts on this thread,  I am not looking for the basics, 
just a practical how to.

Gershon

How would you pasken this shei'lo:

I've been told by anatomy students that the kone and the veishet are not on the 
left and the right of each other, rather they are front/back.  (Let's assume for
the sake of arugment that this is the case.)

Since the principle of shemo yakdim koneh leveishet pre-supposes a left-right 
issue, therefore should a left-handed person, now recline on their right side?

Rich Wolpoe 

Some Jewish calendars, apparently more astronomically precise, cite three
times for kiddush levana: (as memeory serves) solar time, adjusted for local
time, and then adjusted again for Jerusalem time.  What is this "solar
time"? Would someone who understands this, please elucidate.

NW

I read a comment in a sefer, prefaced by a "ka-yadu'a," (I'd never heard of
it), that taking a deep breath and reciting an entire bracha of shmone
esraei aids concentration.  I tried it. I found it focuses the mind, though
i suppose it does not allow the more leisurely state of mind that I imagine
is necessary for multiple kavanos or for "flirting with G-d."
(There you have it: a true Avodah post!)

NW

I was sort of surprised at the lack of a reaction to Micha Berger's post
that ended with the words of this post's Subject.  I would love to see the
reaction and thoughts of other readers, posters, lurkers and others with
whom this idea was shared.

In a message dated 6/1/99 1:50:43 PM EST, turkel@math.tau.ac.il writes:

> 1. Beitzah 4b: Rav Assi indicates that his generation was able to ascertain
>     the correct date of Rosh Chodesh which the previous generations couldn't
>     do (see Rashi)
>     doesn't this go against nitkatnu hadorot?

Not in everything do we apply this, see Brochos 20a, also Minochos 29b, in 
addition there is the Kllal (much discussed in Sifrei HaKllolim) that 
"Hilchisoh Kbasroee", as an aside the term "Im Rishonim Kmalochim etc." 
refers B'ikor to Avodas Hashem, which by the way answers what many ask on 
Tosfos (D"H Rabi, Shabbos 12b) why he brings from Yerushalmi when it is a 
Gemoroh later in Shabbos 112b, because on 112b is an Oisnam where it is used 
on an issue of learning.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 6/1/99 2:35:02 PM EST, gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

> Subj:	 Re: Avodah V3 #71
>  Date:	6/1/99 2:35:02 PM EST
>  From:	gershon.dubin@juno.com (Gershon Dubin)
>  Sender:	owner-avodah@aishdas.org
>  Reply-to:	<A HREF="mailto:avodah@aishdas.org">avodah@aishdas.org</A>
>  To:	avodah@aishdas.org
>  
>  >> Theoretically it should be half of the 29d 12h 793c after the molad, 
>  >when the moon begins to wane, And taking in consideration that (in most
>  cases) the time of the Molad is Yerusholayim time.  (perhaps in the Ezras
>  Torah Luach they adjust for this).
>  	I would have loved to take RYGB's suggestion to look it up in the ET
>  luach, but I had not updated since last year.  The ET luach does adjust, 
>  and I was looking for how to do it without the luach. I'm afraid you've
>  put me back where I started re:  practical approach.
>  
Since today Yerusholayim is 7 hour ahead (this changes when the clokck is 
changed) we would subtract 7 hours in our time zone.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 6/1/99 2:50:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
turkel@math.tau.ac.il writes:

<< 
 2. Beitzah 7: The Gemara takes for granted that a hen will not lay a 
fertilized
    egg at night. This is used le-kulah that the egg was born before yomtov
    even when it is highly unlikely, eg the rooster is far away or across
    the river with only a rope bridge connecting the two sides.
 
     The Gemara doesn't explain how they knew this fact to such complete
     certainty that is is impossible even when facts seem to indicate
     otherwise. Physical observation is not likely to be 100% accurate.
     I find it hard to believe that the is a sinaitic tradition about when
     hens deliver eggs.
 
 Kol Tuv,
 Eli Turkel >>
or, if this is so, why not observe whether they lay eggs during ben 
hashmashot to determine if it's yom or laila?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

I think that this is related to R. Aryeh Kaplan's sefer on
Prayer--RAK believes that Shmoneh Esrei was really meant to be a
meditation (chasidim ha'rishonim were really mystics who spent an
hour before and after prayer in order to enhance the meditative
aspects of the prayer).

Kol tuv,
Moshe


--- Noah Witty <nwitty@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> I read a comment in a sefer, prefaced by a "ka-yadu'a," (I'd never
> heard of
> it), that taking a deep breath and reciting an entire bracha of
> shmone
> esraei aids concentration.  I tried it. I found it focuses the
> mind, though
> i suppose it does not allow the more leisurely state of mind that I
> imagine
> is necessary for multiple kavanos or for "flirting with G-d."
> (There you have it: a true Avodah post!)
> 
> NW
> 
> 

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Eli Turkel:
>>I would suspect that only people close to the level of CC could go through a 
lifetime without complaining about their office workers.<<

As noted before, one can frequently vent (though by no means always) without 
naming names.  

Rich Wolpoe

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