Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 030

Friday, April 23 1999

• Payment for Learning Torah
• Re: payment for torah
• Speeding, etc.
• Kollel Stipends
• Re: Kollel Stipends
• Re: Speeding, etc.
• Re: Kollel Stipends
• Re: Speeding, etc.
• Locusts
• Re: Speeding, etc.
• Re: Kollel Stipends

Saul Davis quotes Judge Engelard to the effect that most Rishonim
opposed the institution of kollel.  As most people are aware, Rambam
strongly opposed the receipt of payment for Torah study.  However, both
as a matter of halakhah and a matter of history, Rambam's view was not
followed.  I believe a good summary of the sources on the issue may be
found in Leo Levi's "Torah Study," as well as the Hebrew version of that
work called (I think) Shaar Talmud Torah.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

Tell the honorable judge to see iggros Moshe on this issue, as well as the
relevant biur halacha
E.G.

Dr. M. Feldman: >>
There are many books proving that safe driving can be done at any speed (look at
the Autobahn).  Essentially, speed laws are passed to protect us from drivers 
who are not safe drivers.<<

Doesn't the Gmeoro discuss whether the Mazik should avoid the nizak AND 
vice-versa?

Lich'ora, drving a bit slower is a form of defensive driving IOW the nizak 
avoiding the mazik.  Agreed that the other courtesies and communications (eg 
signaling etc.) might be even more significant to safe driving.

And as mentioned, regarldes of DMD, v'nishmartem Me'od should apply - this 
week's Parsha.

Rich Wolpoem

>>hat do forumists think of this opinion? Does anyone have sources for ahronim 
on this issue? If haredim today justify receving payment for torah because of 
losses in the holocaust how can this still be relelvant 50 years on? Why in 
Israel is there still a tradition of (almost all) haredim sitting and learning 
and living off charity or public funds? 
Saul Davis
Beer-Sheva, Israel<<

I was taught in yeshiva that Sefardi Gedolim opposed taking of stipends for 
learning (EG Rambam and Besi Yosef) but that Ashkenazi Gedolim said it was ok.  
History bore out the overwhleming success of Ahskenazi Yeshivos in p;roducing 
"gedolim".
     
One Chareidi rationale is simple.  In the aftermath of the holocaust, we have a 
shaas hadechak or a horo'as sho'o situation that makes restoring Torah to its 
former glory an imperetive.  I do not no what the term-limit is on this, but as 
long as there are holocaust survivors alive, we are porbably still within the 
boundaries of that Dor...

Peronally, I oppose the en masse concept of Kollel because to me it's a 
privilege and not a right. Kollel IMHO should be reserved for the "elite".   I 
do not favor the uunderming of the work concept nor the effect of udnermining 
one's sens of societal responsibility.  Of course Pirkei Avos does suggest that 
Ol torah frees one from ol malchus.

Rich Wolpoe

In a message dated 4/23/99 1:27:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< 
 I was taught in yeshiva that Sefardi Gedolim opposed taking of stipends for 
 learning (EG Rambam and Besi Yosef) but that Ashkenazi Gedolim said it was 
ok.  
 History bore out the overwhleming success of Ahskenazi Yeshivos in 
p;roducing 
 "gedolim". >>

I think we've been down this road before but let me pose a simple question. 
Dr. Samuelson, in a long ago edition of his economics textbook, taught about 
what I think was called "the fallacy of composition" which basically stated 
that what worked for an individual doesn't necessarily work for the group. An 
example might be that one individual who is unemployed might search very 
diligently and find a job, but that didn't mean that if everyone who was 
unemployed searched just as diligently, that they would all find jobs. If one 
makes a tziruf hashitot that learning is the ikkar for all and that taking 
money for learning is appropriate for all, then how does this work for an 
entire society? Why wouldn't the leaders of the society encourage those who 
support torah to learn it instead - is the schar for limud greater for one 
with greater abilities??If they don't encourage them to learn, is it a type 
of lifnei iver? 

As for production of gedolim, wouldn't it be a chisaron in our emuna to 
state(if one really held that it was inappropriate to take money for 
learning) that we did it to produce more gedolim? Hatiktzar yad hashem?(I 
guess we should also say the same for institutions that take funds from 
questionable sources)

I know there are no simple answers but I think we get schar for wrestling 
with the questions

Shabbat Shalom , whatever your derech:-)
Joel RIch

--- richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> M. Feldman: >>
> There are many books proving that safe driving can be done at any
> speed (look at
> the Autobahn).  Essentially, speed laws are passed to protect us
> from drivers 
> who are not safe drivers.<<

.. . . .

> Lich'ora, drving a bit slower is a form of defensive driving IOW
> the nizak 
> avoiding the mazik.  Agreed that the other courtesies and
> communications (eg 
> signaling etc.) might be even more significant to safe driving.
> 
I agree that there are many occasions where moderate speeds are
recommended.  The question is what happens when you're driving in the
left-hand lane on the NJ Turnpike at 3 am.  I think that 85 mph is
quite safe (provided you're alert).  DMD would argue that you should
not exceed the speed limit.

> And as mentioned, regarldes of DMD, v'nishmartem Me'od should apply
> - this 
> week's Parsha.
> 
Agreed.  But remember, excessive speed does not cause accidents; it
merely exacerbates the results of bad driving.
My main point is for Israel (for my own sake--I plan to move
there!!): Israelis are so hung up on the issue of speed but
completely ignore the other safety issues I've mentioned.  (When I
make Aliyah, which could be as soon as a couple of months from now, I
may try to become active on this issue; anyone want to join me?)

Shabbat Shalom.
Moshe
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--- Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
> As for production of gedolim, wouldn't it be a chisaron in our
> emuna to 
> state(if one really held that it was inappropriate to take money
> for 
> learning) that we did it to produce more gedolim? Hatiktzar yad
> hashem?

While I am not in favor of kollelim, I should point out that the
above is arguable.  The interplay of Hishtadlut & Bitachon is quite
complex (see an article I wrote for Hamevaser in 1987 or so).  One
could argue that proper Hishtadlut for the creation of gedolim is to
provide a large number of people the ability to learn so that the
"ari she'bachbura" arises.

I have heard Charedim argue that many top talmidim of the Rav (Rav
Soloveitchik) became scientists, mathematicians, etc. (as a matter of
fact, a non-charedi told me that the Rav's best Talmid became a
mathematician) while the best charedim became rabbonim.

Reminds me of the famous Purim Hamevaser (I believe, curtesy of Eli
Clark): "modern Orthodox gedolim cards....collect all two.

> (I 
> guess we should also say the same for institutions that take funds
> from 
> questionable sources)

Clearly, that is a lack of emunah.

Shabbat Shalom.
Moshe

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In a message dated 4/23/99 3:43:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
moshe_feldman@yahoo.com writes:

<<  I think that 85 mph is
 quite safe (provided you're alert).  DMD would argue that you should
 not exceed the speed limit. >>

This brings up another question. What are the DMD implications in situations 
where the state makes it clear that it is unconcerned with your infraction, 
such as driving 60 or 65 on the NY State Thruway, in a 55 MPH zone? Is it the 
law on the books that is our concern, or the way in which the duly delegated 
organs of the state interpret that law, that counts?

Jordan  

>     SEPHARDIC TRADITION: LOCUSTS ARE KOSHER
of the erstwhile pest. Shorr says that testimonies of Yemenite 
and North African Jews may help identify the exact species of kosher 
locusts, so that all Jewish diners would have a halakhic [Jewish 
>law] license to feast on the insect.
	How would this work?  If a Yemenite Jew who has a mesorah on a
particular species of locust that it is a kosher type,  can he serve it
to me?  Can I eat it on his sayso?

Gershon
(who has only an academic,  nongustatory interest in the subject.) 

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--- TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:
> This brings up another question. What are the DMD implications in
> situations 
> where the state makes it clear that it is unconcerned with your
> infraction, 
> such as driving 60 or 65 on the NY State Thruway, in a 55 MPH zone?
> Is it the 
> law on the books that is our concern, or the way in which the duly
> delegated 
> organs of the state interpret that law, that counts?

Of course, if DMD does not apply where a law is rarely or selectively
enforced (see previous posting), clearly the 55 mph limit should not
be viewed as binding.
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In a message dated 4/23/99 4:15:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
moshe_feldman@yahoo.com writes:

<< --- Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
 > As for production of gedolim, wouldn't it be a chisaron in our
 > emuna to 
 > state(if one really held that it was inappropriate to take money
 > for 
 > learning) that we did it to produce more gedolim? Hatiktzar yad
 > hashem?
 
 While I am not in favor of kollelim, I should point out that the
 above is arguable.  The interplay of Hishtadlut & Bitachon is quite
 complex (see an article I wrote for Hamevaser in 1987 or so).  One
 could argue that proper Hishtadlut for the creation of gedolim is to
 provide a large number of people the ability to learn so that the
 "ari she'bachbura" arises. >>
Which would be true if our primary goal were to produce gedolim. One could 
argue that our primary goal is for each of us to do our best to do the ratzon 
hashem as we understand it and that gedolim, as appropriate, will emerge from 
that system.  OTOH maybe an individual who could learn should/can give up 
that "right" for the good of the klal so that others can learn better/more.  
As always, I guess if we come to our approach humbly(ie "hashem"-centric and 
not  egocentric), it's elu v'elu.              Shabbat Shalom                 
                                                                             
Joel Rich                                                                     
                                     PS I'd love to see the article but I 
don't have that particular Hamevasar:-)

********************


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