Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 029

Thursday, April 22 1999

• Re: Naval Birshus HaTorah
• Minhogim and Mimetics
• Re: Avodah V3 #28 - Dina D'malchuta Dina
• Re: Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut
• Re: Avodah V3 #28
• maamid of schach
• Re: Hallel on Yom Ha-Atzmaut
• Re: Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut
• Speeding (was: Avodah V3 #28)
• Parshas Sehmini: Locusts
• payment for torah

In v3n19, Harry Maryles <C-Maryles@neiu.edu> writes:
: Being a Naval Berushus Hatorah is Assur. This means that there is a
: higher ethical plane that the Torah mandates in addition to Halacha.

Actually, doesn't the issur against being a NBhT mean that this "higher
ethical plane" is included in halachah? The "birshus" should be in quotes, i.e.
"naval 'birshus haTorah'", since otherwise the expression would be a paradox.

Also implied, as David Glasner <DGLASNER@FTC.GOV> writes in v2n21, is that
there's some base ethical guideline that isn't spelled out in other issurim.

Third, what's the boundry between the issur of being a "naval 'birshus haTorah'"
and the chiyuv of "mah ani ... af ata ..."?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 21-Apr-99: Revi'i, Mos-Kedoshim
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H O"Ch 313:33-314:6
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Eruvin 68b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Shmuel-II 20

Dr. M. Feldman:>>
By the way, it is very clear to me that Dr. Soloveitchik's views
regarding minhagim serve as the backdrop to his famous (infamous?)
article in Tradition regarding mimetic tradition.<<

I find it ironic that the Briskers were amongst those who seemed to super-impose
several Maimonidian shitos on the back of Ashkeznim and therefore in a sense 
neglected minhog ashkenaz.

EG Boruch Hashem l'olom at Maariv.

But, ein hochi nami, my hashhkofo on this matter comes from the same "school" of
thought (in this case BRGS <smile>). 

Rich Wolpoe

-
>
>Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:37:18 +0100
>From: Chana/Heather Luntz <Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: traffic (was: Dina D'malchusa Dina)
>
>In message , Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com> writes
>>  In
>>Israel, there is no DMD.
>
>Correction.  In Israel, some hold that there is no DMD.  See, eg, for a
>contrary view Yechavei Da'at chelek 5 siman 64 "she gam l'gabei midinas
>yisroel shayich haklal Dina D'malchusa Dina".
>
>> Many Chareidim say that as a result they
>>are not bound by the laws of the State.
>

I understand that Rav Ovadiah Yosef has consistantly paskened that Dina
D'malchuta Dina applies to Israel, e.g., requiring payment of taxes on
those grounds.

hg

.............................................................................

                             Hershel Ginsburg, Ph.D.
              Licensed Patent Attorney and Biotechnology Consultant
                          P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27
                                  Efrat, 90435
                                    Israel
              Phone: 972-2-993-8134        FAX: 972-2-993-8122
                         e-mail: ginzy@netvision.net.il

.............................................................................

Prof. Nachum Rakover put out a volume of sources (teshuvot, articles
and letters) on the halakhic issues surrounding Yom haAtsmaut, and it
contains a chapter on Hallel. The introduction is an excellent summary.
			Aryeh

Subject: DMD
> 
>> Many Chareidim say that as a result they
>>are not bound by the laws of the State.
> 
> Any such people are therefore over on dinei gezela if they use any State
> services (if the state has no right to tax, it likewise has no right to
> use its taxes for your benefit).   Besides problems with kollel
> stipends, how about the roads, the water, the electricity?  You may be
> able to do a little bit of fancy footwork combining yeush and various
> shinuim in some cases, but certainly not all.
> 
I have never understood this position of some charedim.
First of all it is a minority opinion and since when do they rely on
minority opinions for a kulah.
More important, I don't believe that Ran ever meant it in this way.
as Chana implies a literal reading of the Ran implies chaos. There is
no DMD because everyone can live in the land without permission of the king
and therefore no regulations that are not in SA can be made.
This is particularly difficult given the wide powers that Ran gives a king.
Therefore, it is clear that Ran is talking about priveleges for the
king and his personal needs.
Of course, in addition to all the other problems there is always
chillul hashem.
> 
> >
> >I have heard people suggest that one need not follow the speed limit
> >because a large percentage of the population does not follow it. 
> >Under the rules of DMD, a law of the land which is ignored by many
> >goyim does not have the status of the law of the land (Dina
> >D'malchusa) but rather is considered an arbitrary law (Dina D'malka)
> >("DDM").
> 
On the other hand, there is the danger to life and the need to protect
oneself. I find it ludicrous to argue that the speed laws are arbitrary
and therefore one can drive 90MPH where the sign says 60MPH. To our
great sorry too many religious Jews have been killed in traffic
accidents caused by speeding.

I saw a Chazon Ish on today's daf hayome that seems relevant to some of
recent discussions. Chazon Ish (OH 143) is discussing the issue of mmamid of 
schach with a tameh item (eg nails)

1. He disagrees with Terumat haDeshen on the grounds that Terumat haDeshen
   probably didn't see a Rashba 

2. He points out that the Rashba is really a Ritva (both points are related
   to new manuscripts?)

3. He disagrees with SA (Mechaber and Remah doesn't disagree) that allow
   maamid based on custom. Thus, custom seems to overrule SA.
   (Mishnah Berurah seems to be a little less strong and implies that
   Lechatchila one should be machmir).

4. He disagrees with Magen Avraham and Gra on the definition of maamid.
   Thus, in effect he uses the custom to overrule psak of SA but then
   says the way the custom is really practiced is also wrong and not
   sufficiently machmir and so he overrules the custom !

5. Later in the next subsection he disagrees with a Beit Yosef.

Thus, within a few lines he disagrees with Terumat HaDeshen, Magen Avraham,
GRA and Bet Yosef. As others have pointed out other rishonim make the
same point as Rashba/Ritva and so we have to assume that Terumat haDeshen
didn't see those Rishonim either.

My conclusion is that Chazon Ish, bottom line, was guided by his vision
of truth. When he was convinced that errors were made he did hesitate
to disagree with almost anyone despite his words in other letters about
not disagreeing with earlier generations. He could also use the argument
that some person did not see manuscripts to justify his position.
Of course, other achronim disagree with CI on this matter especially
with regard to its application to metal walls and nails.

Kol Tuv,
Eli Turkel

>There was an article in the RJJ Journal of Halacha & Contemp. Society
>sometime between 1984 & 1986.

"Reciting Hallel on Yom Haatzmaut"
	"The Case For"
	  Rabbi Ralph Pelcovitz, p. 5
	"The Case Against"
	  Rabbi Dr. Solomon Ryback, p. 19

JOURNAL OF HALACHA AND CONTEMPORARY SOCIETY, no. VII, Pesach 5744, Spring 1984

What is the title of the volume?

--- "Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer" <frimea@mail.biu.ac.il> wrote:
> Prof. Nachum Rakover put out a volume of sources (teshuvot,
> articles
> and letters) on the halakhic issues surrounding Yom haAtsmaut, and
> it
> contains a chapter on Hallel. The introduction is an excellent
> summary.
> 			Aryeh
> 

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

--- Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il> wrote:
.. . . .
> > >
> > >I have heard people suggest that one need not follow the speed
> limit
> > >because a large percentage of the population does not follow it.
> 
> > >Under the rules of DMD, a law of the land which is ignored by
> many
> > >goyim does not have the status of the law of the land (Dina
> > >D'malchusa) but rather is considered an arbitrary law (Dina
> D'malka)
> > >("DDM").
> > 
> On the other hand, there is the danger to life and the need to
> protect
> oneself. I find it ludicrous to argue that the speed laws are
> arbitrary
> and therefore one can drive 90MPH where the sign says 60MPH. To our
> great sorry too many religious Jews have been killed in traffic
> accidents caused by speeding.
> 
Israelis put great emphasis on the issue of speed and less emphasis
on defensive driving.  When I drive in Israel, I drive faster than
most, but much more safely: (1) I always signal; (2) I avoid
switching into a lane when I will be switching into someone's blind
spot; (3) I do not tailgate; and (4) I do not pass on a 2 lane road
around a curve or near the crest of a hill.  I find that Israelis
drove more slowly than Americans but much more dangerously (I was
nearly killed, chas v'shalom, last year when a car made a left turn
into my lane on the Tel-Aviv Jerusalem highway and then stopped; this
year I rented a Volvo).

There are many books proving that safe driving can be done at any
speed (look at the Autobahn).  Essentially, speed laws are passed to
protect us from drivers who are not safe drivers.

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

The following article of interest was forwarded to me.   Rich Wolpoe.  

     SEPHARDIC TRADITION: LOCUSTS ARE KOSHER
     A conference at Bar Ilan University last week focusing on the 
     consumption of locusts in Jewish law and practice may have both 
     culinary and religious implications. In Leviticus 11, the Torah 
     permits eating certain species of locust - but the question is, which 
     are those species? Researcher Dr. Zohar Amar, speaking at the 
     conference, noted that "from the extensive rabbinic sources [on the 
     subject], one gets the impression that during the Mishnaic and 
     Talmudic periods, Jews possessed a clear tradition of the consumption 
     of kosher locusts. In the course of time, however, there has been a 
     significant breakdown: Already in the Middle Ages, Ashkenazi Jewish 
     communities lacked the ability to identify the kosher species, and 
     they certainly didn't possess any ongoing tradition on the matter." 

     Not so in the Jewish communities of North Africa and Yemen, however. 
     Speaking to the Yediot Acharonot newspaper this week, Amar said that 
     in Yemen, grasshoppers are a snack food. "The body of the creature is 
     fried in oil or butter, or alternatively, is used as a soup base. In 
     the times of the Mishnah and Talmud, Jews used to preserve locust in 
     salt or vinegar... To this day, chocolate or sugar-coated grasshoppers 
     are sold in the markets of France, Japan and South Africa." Beit El 
     resident Netanel Shorr, who recently co-authored a book on the 
     subject, also speaks excitedly of the natural and mystical qualities 
     of the erstwhile pest. Shorr says that testimonies of Yemenite and 
     North African Jews may help identify the exact species of kosher 
     locusts, so that all Jewish diners would have a halakhic [Jewish law] 
     license to feast on the insect. 

Recently a judgment of the Supreme Court of Israel, BG"TS 1/98 and 114/98
from 30.3.99, was published on the internet (see http://www.court.gov.il).
Judge Englard, who is religious and learned gave an opinion which was a
minority opinion but I think contained some very interesting sources which
will interest people here. 

The judgment was about a deliberate attempt by the Housing Ministry to
change the rules concerning government subsides to rented accommodation for
young couples. The change would allow haredi couples to also receive the
subsidy. The Housing Ministry even had houses specially built for the Haredi
community. Previously, Haredim were not eligible for the subsidy as they
were disqualified because they refuse to work. (As we know most Haredim
choose to learn and live off a qollel stipend and not work.) The majority
opinion ruled that the change in rule was biased in favour of one section of
society and was as such illegal. Criteria for government hand-outs must be
equitable.

Judge Englard differed and said that in fact Haredim in full time learning
are earning a living, a stipend, and their profession is the study of torah
in yeshiva/qollel. I am writing this post because of the interesting remarks
he made regarding qollel students. Judge Englard made it perfectly clear
that the qollel "profession" (learning and living off public funds) is not
something which most rishonim were in favour of. He quoted the following
sources:

Ramba"m, "Pirqey Avoth" 4, 5. Here the Ramba"m uses exceptionally strong
language describing those who use the torah as a profession as deserving
"kareth" in olam haba. The Ramba"m says that those who learn and then want
to be supported by the community are very mistaken.
Ramba"m, "Hilkhoth Talmud Torah" chap 3, hal 10. Anyone who earns a living
from the study of torah is doing a hillul hashem, debasing the torah etc.
See Beth Yossef on the Ramba"m who does not strenuously object to the
Ramba"m's view. Beth Yossef say that lehatkhila everyone, including talmidey
hakhamim, should have a profession and only in dire circumstances should
they receive public support.
Baal Haturim, "Yoreh Deah" 246, agrees with the Ramba"m.
Rem"a at "Yoreh Deah" 246 brings the Ramba"m as the leading view against the
view of the Beth Yossef.

What do forumists think of this opinion? Does anyone have sources for
ahronim on this issue? If haredim today justify receving payment for torah
because of losses in the holocaust how can this still be relelvant 50 years
on? Why in Israel is there still a tradition of (almost all) haredim sitting
and learning and living off charity or public funds? 

Saul Davis
Beer-Sheva, Israel

********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]