Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 024

Saturday, April 17 1999

• Re: Let's Move On
• Truth, Literal
• Cheating on Taxes
• Word to the wise
• Dina de-Malkhuta Dina -- The Tzitz Eliezer
• Re: Dina de-Malkhuta Dina -- The Tzitz Eliezer
• Re: goyim and olam haba
• Re: Avodah V3 #22
• goyim and olam habah

R' YGB wisely suggests:


> 
> Since I bet (if that be permitted) that we are a self-selected group that
> does adhere to the tax code more or less properly, why don't we move on to


Splendid idea. I apologize for the length of my last post on the subject,
but it's already sent. 

By the way, I have the Yehaveh Da'at re: our Seu'dah Selishit sources from
before Pesah, but no time to type (the IRS letter was cut and paste, so
took very little time). I hope to come back to it mosa'ei Shabbat.

Shabbat shalom to all.


---sam

RYGB/RMF Kotzker
>>One who believes that it was possible is a hasid. 
One who believes that every story about the Besht is literally true is
a fool.
One who believes that it was impossible is an apikores.<<

Re: Aggedito, etc. I paraprhase this as:
Every thing Chazal says is TRUE
But,
Not everything they say is literal (or meant to be literal).

Rich Wolpoe

	As I recall, in the late 70's, when Rabbi Shlomo Riskin was still the 
Rabbi at Lincoln Square Synagogue in New York, the shul would send out a 
letter each year, in early April, reminding people that cheating on taxes 
violates halacha.  I think the letters were signed by Rabbi Riskin, but I 
do not recall exactly what support or sources were cited.  Does this make 
being honest on one's tax returns an MO thing?  (smile!!)  Seriously, I am 
curious as to whether anyone knows of any other shul or communal Rabbi that 
has done anything like this?

Jeffrey I. Zuckerman

Sammy Ominsky presents us with a letter explaining his position vis a
vis US income tax liability.
It is not my goal to address the merits of his argument.  As he
correctly states, Avodah is not the appropriate forum.

However, in the spirit of lo ta'amod al dam re'ekha, I feel obligated to
make the following information public.  Arguments similar to Sammy's are
tested in federal court at least once a week.  The judges routinely
dismiss these arguments and impose penalties.  I am not predicting that
anyone will be caught.  Only that if the system catches up with someone,
that person may not be treated gently.

Kol tuv and Shabbat shalom,

Eli Clark

RYGB writes:

>As the
>Tzitz Eliezer points out in a teshuva on renting apartments and stores to
>non-Jews, almost every commercial activity b'zman ha'zeh entails soem
>degree of potential mesayei'ah. Thus, examples range from renting
>apartments to Hindus or Homosexuals, to - let us say in may case - woning
>shares of K-Mart and Microsoft - companies that undoubtedly facilitate
>Chillul Shabbos and Achilas Devorim Assurim of many employees and
>customers.

>I will look for the mareh makom later, bl"n, but the TE clarifies:
>Mesayei'ah Yedei Ovrei Aveira does not apply to commercial activity with
>an avaryan (except, of course, in the cases Chazal prohibited in Mes. AZ
>and elsewhere) - rather to assistance in the literal sense.

I want to thank RYGB for this opinion of R. Waldenberg, of which I was
unaware, as well as for his kind words.  However, I think that R.
Waldenberg's he'arah is not applicable to patronizing a store owned by a
Jew who does not pay sales tax.  As recapitulated by RYGB, R. Waldenberg
argues that we don't classify as mesaye'a such indirect acts as rental
of an apartment to an oved avodah zarah or owning stock in, say,
McDonalds.  Only "literal" assistance.  It seems to me that the sales
tax case IS literal assistance.  I am not merely providing an abode in
which an issur may take place or financing for business activities which
involve issurim.  In the sales tax case, I am providing the
instrumentality by which the issur is violated, i.e. it is a percentage
of my payment to the proprietor that 1) he is obligated to pay over to
the tax authorities and 2) what he illegally retains.  In my view, this
should constitute literal assistance, even according to R. Waldenberg.

Kol tuv and Shabbat shalom,

Eli Clark

On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Clark, Eli wrote:

> I want to thank RYGB for this opinion of R. Waldenberg, of which I was
> unaware, as well as for his kind words.  However, I think that R. 
> Waldenberg's he'arah is not applicable to patronizing a store owned by a
> Jew who does not pay sales tax.  As recapitulated by RYGB, R. Waldenberg
> argues that we don't classify as mesaye'a such indirect acts as rental
> of an apartment to an oved avodah zarah or owning stock in, say,
> McDonalds.  Only "literal" assistance.  It seems to me that the sales
> tax case IS literal assistance.  I am not merely providing an abode in
> which an issur may take place or financing for business activities which
> involve issurim.  In the sales tax case, I am providing the
> instrumentality by which the issur is violated, i.e. it is a percentage
> of my payment to the proprietor that 1) he is obligated to pay over to
> the tax authorities and 2) what he illegally retains.  In my view, this
> should constitute literal assistance, even according to R. Waldenberg. 
> 

I apologize - the TE is actually machmir - see 13:39 - it is the Maharsham
he cites that is meykel. RSZ Auerbach in Minchas Shlomo 35 is inclined to
say mesayei'ah only applies to a cheftza of issur. See the Melamed l'Ho'il
1:34-39 who discusses these matters b'arichus, and tends to be lenient as
well. Dof davar, REC, I look forward to your further research!

Have a Good Shabbos/Voch

YGB

Personal PS to REC - I just noticed the essay you sent me today in my
shtender in Shul - I guess someone placed it there. Thanks!

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Eli Turkel wrote:
> 
>     The present discussion remins me of a question that has long
> bothered me. I once saw in a letter of the Steipler the statement
> that a priest who saved Jews in the holocaust would burn in hell
> (my paraphase not his words) because he is an idol worshipper.
> The fact that he risked his life to save Jews is nice and we give him
> a yasher koach but no more. He strongly critcizes earlier sources
> that give goyim "credit" for activities beyond the 7 mitzvot.
> I assume that is all the more so of Mother Teresa (for example).


I find this view of the Steipler hard to believe and very difficult to 
stomach!  Is this indeed his view?  I think we need some verification.  
Otherwise it would seem like a great Divine injustice to some one like 
Mother Teresa, who dedicated her entire life to comforting and helping 
the sick and dying wrecthed refuse of Humanity in India. It seems 
ludicrous to say that a devoutly religious human being like this is 
destined to burn in Hell because of her Christian ( and therefore, 
possibly idolotrous) beliefs. And it was through no fault of her own 
that she has these beliefs - being born a Catholic. This view is an 
affront to anyone's concepts of Divine Justice and would indeed be a 
Divine injustice. Surley the Mother Teresas of the world have a place in 
Olam HaBah together with the rest of the Chasidei Umos HaOlam.

HM

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:11:00 -0400
> From: "Pechman, Abraham" <APechman@mwellp.com>
> Subject: RE: me'inyana d'yoma
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer
> > [mailto:sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu]
> > Sent: Thursday, April 15, 1999 6:39 PM
> > To: avodah@aishdas.org
> > Subject: Re: me'inyana d'yoma
> > 
> > 
> > While it is absolutely forbidden to lie on one's 1040, 
> > because of geneivas
> > da'as - and - in many cases, because of geneiva mamash, the reality is
> 
> Anyone who signs their tax form (1040) is signing a statement that the tax
> return and all accompanying schedules is true, correct and complete. Would
> signing a false statement constitute lying (I seem to recall Rav Schachter
> of YU quoting in this context the GR"A that it does)? If so, we can add
> midvar sheker tirchak as an issur.
> 
> > that most Jews - not just Orthodox ones - have a Kimba Wood problem -
> > remember her? (And the candidate befor her - forget her name, 
> > but wasn't
> > she Jewish?) i.e., the Babysitter issue. We also have a problem with
> > stores that do not charge sales tax - which some Poskim 
> 
> The store which collects sales tax is doing so as a service to the customer
> (it's a service that the state requires him to perform). If the vendor fails
> to collect the sales tax, a liability still exists from the customer to the
> state. (And let's think about this: some states (NY is one of them) require
> sales tax to be paid by their residents on out of state purchases. Nobody
> ever makes this payment. Would these poskim forbid buying in a state you
> don't live in?)


I am not sure about this.  States can charge a use charge on certain 
items, but cannot require sales tax on out of state purchases.  Federal 
Law would take precedance in this cases.  This is the same issue as 
taxes on internet purchases.

> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:36:32 -0400
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: paying Babystitters on the books
> 
> HM:>>
> 
> 
> How many people take out withholding taxes when they pay their baby 
> sitter?  I'll tell you.  NO ONE! <<
> 
> We do.    Ask my accounatant.
> You are accused of being guilty of ujumping to conclusions <smile>.
> ,
> Rich Wolpoe
> 
> PS I do not mean to imply any tzidkus or superiority here.  It is bascially 
> yir'as ho'onesh.. RW 
> In most cases one may be exempt after the various nannygate cases there 
was an amount which payment below that amount are exempt.

> However, I find it representative of the sort of thinking that will cause 
> even "nice" Non-Jews to hate us.  
> 
> One would think that simple HAKARAS HATOV toward  a non-Jew who risked his
> life for Jews (and thus enabled the JEW to keep performing Mitzvot) would
> mean that we would try to judge his actions as FAVORABLY as possible (such
> as that he was raised in a particular religion and is -- perhaps -- NOT a
> true Oved Avoda Zarah) such that it WOULD be possible to cosider such a
> person as meriting Olam Habah.
> 
I will Bli Neder try and look up the exact quote. However, from memory,
the Steipler was not talking about hakarat hatov. Of course, the people
saved and possibly the Jewish people have obligations of gratitude towards
an idol worshipper that saves Jews. The Steipler was saying that in
Olam Haba the akum will be punished for his idol worship (he assume
Xtianity is idol worship - but thats a separate issue) and that in heaven
his saving Jews will not help. As usual he brings sources which I hope
to look up during the week.

Eli Turkel

********************


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