Avodah Mailing List

Volume 01 : Number 040

Sunday, September 6 1998

• Mis'asek
• SELICHOS
• pizza
• beyasa bekutcha
• Re: SELICHOS
• Parshas Ki Setze and Megilas Esther
• Re: Parshas Ki Setze and Megilas Esther
• Re: Hagomel for ktanim
• RE: Simon BrOcha
• Re: Brachos for Women
• Definition of "Seudah"
• Re: Brachos for Women

I asked a friend of mine about the need for saying there's no mis'aseik by
ma'achalos asuros or arayos "shekein neheneh". My problem was that by Shabbos,
mis'aseik is phrased as an absence of mileches /machsheves/ which seems to tie
mis'aseik to Shabbos. In which case, why would we even have a hava amina that
it would apply to ocheil or arayos?

His reply was that he's not sure that either issur -- ma'achalos assuros or
arayos -- can exist without hana'ah. For example, l'din matzah, achilah
excludes achilah gasa. If so, then we could have thought that achilah or bi'ah
could have a concept of or a parallel to mis'aseik. (Using the hana'ah element
to parallel m'lachah's need for machshavah.) However, we conclude that even
mis'aseik, the person's gashmius gets hana'ah, even if unintentionally so --
and therefore the issur still applies.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287    Help free Yehuda Katz, held by Syria 5913 days!
micha@aishdas.org                         (11-Jun-82 - 5-Sep-98)
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those shuls that say selichos  at night before chasos who are they relying
on?

>One of the antecedents of this august list was the "pizza war" - quite 
>a blood (or, maybe it was really tomato sauce!) bath. Many of us (myself
>included) are firmly of the opinion of that the bracha on pizza is 
>hamotzi regardless.
	As a veteran of a few of these blood/tomato sauce baths, may I
respectfully request that we  NOT  do another one?

Gershon

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>on how a person is approached , can  be found in the sugya of moreh
>halacha befnay rabbo. the Gemara in Eruvin 62b says that Rav Chisda
>would not answer about beyata becutcha while rav Huna was alive.
>Obviously this falls under the category of not being a problem at all
	If I remember that Gemara correctly,  the meforshim ask why couldn't he
answer such a simple question,  and they come up with reasons why it
wasn't all that simple.   Thus,  there is a category of questions which
are really too simple to ask,  which obviously depends on one's own level
of learning.

Gershon

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Not much, from a Litvishe standpoint. A teshuva of R' Moshe in which he
says that perhaps in she'as hadechak there is room to be lenient. There
are Chassidim, notably the Gerrers, who do say early selicos, but I have
never seen anything b'ktav.

YGB

On Sun, 6 Sep 1998 bjk1@pipeline.com wrote:

> those shuls that say selichos  at night before chasos who are they relying
> on?
> 
> 

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

I noticed an interesting phrase in the parsha this morning. Devarim 25:9
tells us what the yevama says to the yavam during chalitza: "Kakha
ye'aseh la'ish asher lo yivneh es bais achiv."

In Esther 6:9, and again in 6:11, we are told what the leader of the
parade says: "Kakha ye'aseh la'ish asher hamelekh chafetz biykaro."

Not only is the phrasing strikingly similar, but the trop is EXACTLY the
same for both of these. Has anyone ever seen any perush which comments on
this? Is it possible that when Mordechai translated Haman's words into
Hebrew for inclusion in the megillah, he deliberately chose these words
and this trop, in order to allude to chalitza for some reason?

Akiva Miller

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Could have something to do with the Chazal that there was a bill of sdale
of Haman as slave to Mordechai written on Mordechai's shoe which he lifted
to show Haman as the latter passed by, no?

YGB

On Sun, 6 Sep 1998, Kenneth G Miller wrote:

> I noticed an interesting phrase in the parsha this morning. Devarim 25:9
> tells us what the yevama says to the yavam during chalitza: "Kakha
> ye'aseh la'ish asher lo yivneh es bais achiv."
> 
> In Esther 6:9, and again in 6:11, we are told what the leader of the
> parade says: "Kakha ye'aseh la'ish asher hamelekh chafetz biykaro."
> 
> Not only is the phrasing strikingly similar, but the trop is EXACTLY the
> same for both of these. Has anyone ever seen any perush which comments on
> this? Is it possible that when Mordechai translated Haman's words into
> Hebrew for inclusion in the megillah, he deliberately chose these words
> and this trop, in order to allude to chalitza for some reason?
> 
> Akiva Miller
> 
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
> 

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Avraham (avi) and pnina parnes wrote:

> I was very surprised to find out that a Katan does not say Hagomel and
> nor does his parent say it for him. I felt somewhat "cheated" at not
> being able to thank Hakodosh Boruch Hu in the fashion that is normally
> done. Looking into the subject, the only reason I found in the Poskim
> was that a Katan can not say "Hagomel Lechayavim etc." because as he is
> not yet chayav in Mitzvot so he is not to be considered a choteh who
> caused his near misfortune through averot. Since many Poskim explain
> that chayavim in the Bracha is talking about chayavim dealma and not
> specifically the one saying the bracha this reason is not  universal.Has
> anyone hseen other reasons? why does the MB say that there is even no
> din chinuch in this(219 sk 3).I would appreciate your thoughts comments or
> sources.

The vast majority of sources say not to say it  However, there are
opinions that permit it  - see Shaarei Tshuva 219 1.
The Tzitz Eliezar Vol 10 #20 brings down everyone as well as a major
discussion of the issue of punishment before 20. Yabiya Omer vol 4 #2
also discusses the question of saying the beracha  by Hirhur. Hope
someone has time to summarize the many tshuvos on the subject.

                                          Daniel Eidensohn

It says that to make HavDolah on Wine (I assume to mean real wine and not
Grape Juice) MotZoah Shabbos is a Simon BaRocho.
What does SIMON mean? A Simon usually means it is a sign therefore a Simon
BaRocho means a sign that there IS Brocao in the house. 

I have always understood it to mean that it is a SaGullah for BroCho
meaning that if you do this then you will have BrouCho in your house.

What does Simon really mean?

Kol Tuv
mendel

>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer" <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Brachos for Women

>I am curious how Tzanz broke off from the rest of Minhag Ashkenaz. Did the
>Divrei Chaim rule against RT?

I do not know what you mean by 'broke'. It was mentioned here that the Chocham
Tzvi. Tzanz was not alone in that. There were many places that did not have
such a custom. Much like among the Sefardim you will find places which have
the custom not to eat kitniyos on Pesach. (BTW I could always ask how the Gra
broke from the tradition to follow Rebbenu Tam for the times of Shabbos etc.)

-- 


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What is the definition of a 'seudah'? I have found a wide range of how a
meal is defined for various mitzvos. For example, it seems that 'kevias
seudah' is defined very differently for what must be eaten in a Sukkah,
as compared to when Hamotzi is said on Pas Habaa B'kisnin.

The Mishna Brurah 639:16 paskens like the Maamar Mordechai "that one who
eats pas habaa b'kisnin with coffee in the morning, or similar things
such as we do all year long, then even though he would not say Hamotzi
because it's not the shiur which most people would be kovea on,
nevertheless it does require a sukkah, because he is being kovea seudah
on it."

I have found four different definitions of "seudah", which apply in
different situations. (Please see below for my disclaimers before
responding.)

(1) Seudas Mitzvah Type A - The dinner and lunch meals on Shabbos and Yom
Tov are fulfilled with anything requiring Birkas Hamazon. Sheva Brachos
requires any mean at which Birkas Hamazon is said. (I imagine the same is
true of a Seudas Bris Milah or a Seudas Pidyon Haben.)

(2) Seudas Mitzvah Type B - Kiddush Al Hakos must be done at a meal; this
meal can be one kezayis of bread, cake, or pasta (or possibly even a
reviis of wine). Also for Seuda Shlishis and Melave Malka, even a kezayis
of cake or pasta is enough. (From what I have seen on Erev Pesach, it
seems that cake suffices for a Siyum as well.)

(3) Sukkah - Only a "seudas keva" must be eaten in the sukkah. According
to some, there may be social factors (such as the presence of wine and/or
friends, or the day being Shabbos or Yom Tov) which help the meal get
this status. Otherwise, it is generally accepted that only a meal
containing *more* *than* one kebaytza of bread, cake, or pasta *must* be
eaten in the sukkah.

(4) Birkas Hamazon on Pas Habaa B'kisnin - To do the mitzvah of reciting
Birkas Hamazon, when one has eaten baked goods other than bread, one must
have eaten enough of it to constitute a meal. There are several opinions
how to define a meal for this case, such as eating 3 or 4 kebaytzim of
it, or eating it the same way as one would eat bread. In any case, the
shiur is different than for any of the three preceding paragraphs.

Please note that I am concentrating here specifically on the question
"Does this meal constitute a seudah or doesn't it?" This is distinct from
the more general 'achilah', which has different shiurim for bracha
rishona, bracha acharona, and Yom Kippur, for example. I am also *not*
discussing certain kinds of Seudos, such as seudah hamafsekes, or seudas
havraah, which are for specific occasions and require specific foods. I
am also not discussing the distinctions between when benching is d'oraisa
vs. d'rabanan; I understand that to be dependent on seviah, not seudah.

Final note: I acknowledge that the outline above is subject to many
disputes. For example, some shitos hold that one is *not* yotzay Kiddush
B'makom Seudah on cake, but that the Kiddush must be said at a Hamotzi
meal. If the Avodah readership would like to argue about those find
points, so be it. But my main question is to understand why we have so
many different definitions for the same concept.

In other words, from a HASHKAFA point of view, why is it that a donut and
coffee is enough of a meal to require a sukkah and for Kiddush, but it is
not enough of a meal to require Netilas Yadayim, or to count as a Shabbos
lunch?

Akiva Miller

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On Sun, 6 Sep 1998, Moshe Shulman wrote:

> I do not know what you mean by 'broke'. It was mentioned here that the
> Chocham Tzvi. Tzanz was not alone in that. There were many places that

It seems unlikely that there was a direct chain from the Chacham Tzvi to
Tzanz.

> did not have such a custom. Much like among the Sefardim you will find
> places which have the custom not to eat kitniyos on Pesach. (BTW I could
> always ask how the Gra broke from the tradition to follow Rebbenu Tam
> for the times of Shabbos etc.) 
> 

You could, and should ask the question. Tha answer is that the Gra
reopened the issue, reanalyzed it, and broke from RT. I still remain
curious who did this for this Tzanzer minhag.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

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