Avodah Mailing List

Volume 01 : Number 030

Thursday, August 27 1998

• Re: Goodbyes.
• Censorship
• Re: Censorship
• Re: Avodah V1 #28
• Re: private discussions
• Re: Avodah V1 #27
• Rav Ahron's Picture
• Re: In defense of Rav Moshe's calculations
• Re: In defense of Rav Moshe's calculations
• Levi collecting ma'aser during zman kibbush ha'aretz, a note on MB
• Rav Hirsch
• Re: Rav Hirsch

cbrown@bestware.com wrote:

> I'm sure many others received a good-bye from R, Hendell not posted to the
> list because he has apparently be expelled.  I don't know any of the
> details regarding the decision  - but  despite the fact that I have
> disagreed with almost everything he has written I still support his right
> to not be censured.
>
> I understand the list is not a democracy and there are guidelines which our
> listowner alone is free to enforce.  However, I'd rather be personally
> responsible to delete what I don't want to read or respond to then to have
> a policy of expulsion.
>
> -CB

  Very well put and I second the motion.
           Daniel Eidensohn

I wasn't going to discuss this with the list, but since it was both raised on
the list, and my mailbox overfloweth...

The rule for getting expelled from the list is very simple: someone who
repeatedly ignores requests to modify tone or content can't stay on the list.
The list isn't moderated. If we're to keep its character, we have to limit
membership to people who voluntarily agree to do so.

In the case of Russel Hendel, we've been talking to him about his posting
style repeatedly. He has this habit of making arguments from personal
interpretation that run counter to masorah. Which alone could add to the
conversation on the list. Although consistently having five or more such
observations a day certainly affected the character of the mailing list.

The problem was that he combined this speculative style with an authoritative
tone, often not showing proper kavod for the position supported by our
masorah.

The day before Dr. Hendel was evicted, I emailed him on this very subject, and
he sent out a correction and apology on his last few offenses. Then, he came
out with that "masturbation isn't all that assur" post. There he wrote
something in the tone of "Torah miSinai" that appeared to give a nod and a
wink to an issur d'oraisa.

The topic of conversation was not the matter. I was not comfortable with the
fact that there was insufficient effort at using lashon naki in a sensitive
discussion. However, as this would be the first time, and it was never clearly
spelled out, I would have just sent a request not to do the same in the future.

The tone and position taken in the email (and the following one, later that
day) weren't *directly* the problem either. The real issue is that I can not
keep posters who refuse to keep to suggested guidelines even after being
personally asked to do so. Despite what Russel Hendel writes in his spam, this
was a long time in coming -- he knew he repeatedly tested the envelope of the
list.


Ironically, I look forward to seeing him on other mailing lists. (Although I'm
not sure he'll be thrilled to see me.) I enjoy his posts. Unfortunately, Avodah
is an unmoderated list with a very specific niche, and I can't afford to
take the p'soles with the ochel.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287    Help free Yehuda Katz, held by Syria 5904 days!
micha@aishdas.org                         (11-Jun-82 - 26-Aug-98)
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
http://www.aishdas.org -- Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed

This is not the place for this discussion, but since I put the original
post on the list I just have to follow up by saying "unmoderated" and
"expulsion by listowner" are a tartei d'sasrei.  To pull a Johnny Cochran -
"If you don't moderate, you must tolerate".

-CB

(yes, I admit that was bad)


                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                           



          Please respond to avodah@aishdas.org

          To:   avodah @ aishdas.org
          cc:   Rhendel @ mcs.drexel.edu
          Subject:  Censorship




I wasn't going to discuss this with the list, but since it was both raised
on the list, and my mailbox overfloweth...

The rule for getting expelled from the list is very simple: someone who
repeatedly ignores requests to modify tone or content can't stay on the
list. The list isn't moderated. If we're to keep its character, we have to
limit membership to people who voluntarily agree to do so.

In the case of Russel Hendel, we've been talking to him about his posting
style repeatedly. He has this habit of making arguments from personal
interpretation that run counter to masorah. Which alone could add to the
conversation on the list. Although consistently having five or more such
observations a day certainly affected the character of the mailing list.

The problem was that he combined this speculative style with an
authoritative tone, often not showing proper kavod for the position
supported by our masorah.

The day before Dr. Hendel was evicted, I emailed him on this very subject,
and he sent out a correction and apology on his last few offenses. Then, he
came out with that "masturbation isn't all that assur" post. There he wrote
something in the tone of "Torah miSinai" that appeared to give a nod and a
wink to an issur d'oraisa.

The topic of conversation was not the matter. I was not comfortable with
the fact that there was insufficient effort at using lashon naki in a
sensitive discussion. However, as this would be the first time, and it was
never clearly spelled out, I would have just sent a request not to do the
same in the future.

The tone and position taken in the email (and the following one, later that
day) weren't *directly* the problem either. The real issue is that I can
not keep posters who refuse to keep to suggested guidelines even after
being personally asked to do so. Despite what Russel Hendel writes in his
spam, this was a long time in coming -- he knew he repeatedly tested the
envelope of the list.


Ironically, I look forward to seeing him on other mailing lists. (Although
I'm not sure he'll be thrilled to see me.) I enjoy his posts.
Unfortunately, Avodah is an unmoderated list with a very specific niche,
and I can't afford to take the p'soles with the ochel.

          -mi

          --
          Micha Berger (973) 916-0287    Help free Yehuda Katz, held by Syria
          5904 days!
          micha@aishdas.org                         (11-Jun-82 - 26-Aug-98)
          For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
          http://www.aishdas.org -- Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed

somehow I did not recieve no.27 please forward. GS

I think you might have meant to send the message below privately, however,
since it went out to the entire list, let me respond publicly.

Firstly, our listowner, R' Micha, is much more familiar with the technical
details you mention, and I assume he will respond to the feasibility of
what you propose.

Secondly, I followed with interest the debate last week over the
"worthwhileness" of the effort. I would like to suggest that I believe
the effort is worthwhile, but with the following caveat:

E-mail forums, as we know, are great democratizers. No one of us really
has a position of authority over another - we debate - often endlessly
and pointlessly :-) - issues, and rarely come to conclusions.

In sensitive issues, this is not a good idea.

In such areas, therefore, whoever coordinates this sub-list (for Micha's
sake, it should probably be a volunteer!) must agree to submit issues to a
high-level rabbinic authority - preferably *not* subscribed online - for
determinations when impasses are reached. Of course, the authority must be
known to and accepted by the founding membership, and all additional
members would need to agree to this setup (and, of course, other
conditions) in order for this to work.

YGB

On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, GS wrote:

> Dear Rabbi Bechoffer,
> 
> I am new to the list as you know. In reading some of the questions on
> Arayos and your (the halacha's) sensitivity to public discussion of
> these issues, may I suggest that a way be found to discuss private
> matters ? Maybe you should request around the list for ideas as to how
> to discuss these issues in a fashion which you believe is within Tzniut.
> I'll start off with my idea. Possibly your ISP has a secure server. The
> key or password could be given only to those who request it. It may
> still be more public than might be optimum, but it would require a
> higher nuisance factor on the part of the one requesting the key and
> deter at some or most idle curiosity.
> 
> 

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Would there be much objection out there to further distilling the
difference between the "users" of the MB and AS into the following
camps:
MB: Tell me what to do (just make sure I don't make any mistakes in my
compliance)
AS: Explain to me why it is that I'm doing this (just make sure your
arguments hold together)
The AS group is requiring an understanding - the Nishma
(understanding-comprehension) part of the famous duality as well, the MB
relying only on the Naaseh.
If the above has a modicum of truth to it, how is the MB group
fulfilling the Nishma/understanding part ?
GS

Someone mentioned a famous picture of Rav Ahron Kotler ZT'L holding a
mishnah Berurah prominently displayed.  Just an interesting note.  That
Mishnah Berurah in the famous picture was my father's (Rav Tzvi Hersh
Weinreb of Baltimore MD).  Rav Ahron Z'L used to carry a Mishnah Berurah
with him when he travelled and he happened to borrow my father's once when
he had to make an emergency trip to New York.  My father was learning in
Lakewood at the time.  When in N.Y. someone took that famous picture.
Shaul Weinreb

Rabbi Bechhofer wrote:
<<< R' Moshe, to my understanding, did NOT hold that bein hashemashos is
a constant - rather, that 50 min. is an outer limit, and one can use it
throughout the year without making separate cheshbonos. >>>

This is a possibility, but please note that Rav Moshe explicitly allows
the first 9 3/8 minutes after shkia to be used as a kula, and considered
as daytime IN CERTAIN LIMITED SITUATIONS. If the 50 were an outer limit,
he probably would have warned us about shortening it. That's why I think
that he meant it for all year.

Akiva

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

I concede the point. 

R' Moshe clearly held that bein hashemashos according
to RT is static, and that whatever the 72m in Europe meant in terms of
darkness, at whatever point in the year, is then fixed both l'kulla and
l'chumra throughout the year.

As I mentioned previously, I cannot understand this viewpoint. I am not,
however, going to get again into the questions on this psak, because I
have already received e-mail accusing me, c"v, of being disrespectful of
R' Moshe, from someone who obviously mistakes shakla v'tarya and milchamta
shel Torah for some lack of kavod chachomim r"l.

We are probably, it seems, on safer grounds discussing hashkafa :-).

YGB


On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Kenneth G Miller wrote:

> This is a possibility, but please note that Rav Moshe explicitly allows
> the first 9 3/8 minutes after shkia to be used as a kula, and considered
> as daytime IN CERTAIN LIMITED SITUATIONS. If the 50 were an outer limit,
> he probably would have warned us about shortening it. That's why I think
> that he meant it for all year.
> 
> Akiva

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

My safek: could a Levi collect ma'aser on food grown during the years of
kibbush before chalukat ha'aretz?  On the one hand he certainly has no
chelek in E. Israel, but neither does anyone else!

(regarding whether receiving ma'aser is absolutely contingent on not having
a cheilek in E. Israel, see Rambam/Ra'aved end of Hil Shmittah.  Same issue
in reverse - b'zman mashiach Levi'im will have a cheilek in Eretz Yisrael
(BB 56); does that affect ma'aser obligation?)

-Chaim B.

P.S. On a different note, I fail to see what we can deduce from the fact
that R' Aharon Kotler was photographed with a M.B. other then he learned M.
B. when he travelled.  Am I missing something?

Chaim Brown and I were recently discussing our very different opinions of Rav
Hirsch's work. With his permission I'd like to give the group a slightly edited snapshot of our last give-and take to open it for wider discussion.

Me:
> I don't agree that "symbolism is an open field". Hirsch's symbols are
> lifted straight out of the Zohar. I was surprised too, but so says Dayan
> Grunfeld's intro to Horeb. He's giving a rationalistic/psychological spin
> to Kabbalah, but the man was actually a mekubal. Second, getting a symbol
> that fits all the p'ratim of the mitvah is non-trivial. Third, only certain
> categories of mitzvos are deemed symbolic. He isn't claiming "lo sisa es
> Sheim Hashem", or "hochei'ach tochiach" are symbolic.

> BTW, you might be interested in seeing "Shemesh M'rapei", a collection of
> RSRH's teshuvos. He had the kind of lomdus you enjoy, it just wasn't what
> he thought needed writing.

> What I like about Hirsch's usual content is that it allows one to tie the
> lomdus to first principles. Instead of just looking at the argument between
> the Rambam, the Ra'avad, and Rashi&Tosafos about how many strings are
> supposed to be techeiles, you get a view as to what each one implies about
> the meaning of techeiles. As far as I know, he's the only one who took the
> study of ta'amei hamitzvos to the level of getting all the individual dinim
> to fit. Perhaps if someone else has a non-symbolic system, I'd prefer that
> one.

> Symbols are powerful because they provide a nexus where mind and heart
> interact. If you have an emotional attachment to something, but don't
> understand it very well, studying a metaphor can help. OTOH, if you
> understand something but have a hard time attaching to it emotionally,
> having an image makes it easier to relate to.

> About his writing style, I like the poetry of it. Then again, between
> Hirsch's German and my greatgrandfather's Hebrew, I got used to never
> ending sentences. They used a lot of adjectives and adverbs to create an
> exact picture.

> Perhaps what I'm trying to say is that for me Hirsch provides a balance to
> the cerebralism of lomdus -- both in giving me meanings to contemplate and
> in the poetry of language. He could draw a vivid picture of aliyas haregel
> out of a patchwork quilt of pesukim from Nevi'im achronim -- in a single
> pagelong sentence.

> If you operate more cerebrally, though, both the style and the content
> won't appeal.


Chaim Brown's reply:
: I appreciate your comments.  Since I haven't read Grunfeld maybe I'm a
: little less biased.  Since Hirsch never once (to the best of my knowledge)
: mentions the Zohar or delves into concepts like sephirot, sheimos,
: tikkunim, etc. that one associates with Kabbalah, I find the notion that he
: was a Kabbalist a bit of a stretch.  I find the notion by Rav Kook that
: mitzvot are not symbolic more in concert with the kabbalah.  The difference
: is philosophically significant: symbols may be sufficient to evoke an
: emotional response, but they are not necessarily the only way to evoke that
: response.  Kabbalistic tikkunim in metaphysucal worlds assume that the
: manner mitzvot are performed is both sufficient and necessary to produce
: that result.

: The ta'amei hamitzvot were intentionally aimed to make the details fit,
: something the Rambam failed to do.  However, they remain speculation.
: Maybe a different symbolic structure could be developed to accomodate the
: details in a different way.  This is an echo of a criticism I have of some
: who just plug chakiros into every machlokes - R' Chaim always begins with a
: kashe.  The proof of the lomdus is that it can explain diffculties that we
: could not account for in a better way.  Can symbolism have a similar
: criteria of proof?  I'm not convinced it can.

: What I find very distasteful about the Hirschian quoters (and I've seen
: less of this on the list then I've heard in other places) is the
: application of 19th century cultural mores to 20th century American life.
: Hirsch's attitude toward women's rights, education, Zionism vs. patriotism
: toward the fatherland, culture, and other issues smacks of typical 19th
: century thought.  His essays were perhaps progressive for his time relative
: to his Orthodox contemporaries in Lita, but are not etched in stone as
: reflecting universal truths.  The chareidi world (Breuer's included) reads
: Hirsch as hora'at sha'ah l'chumra in rejecting TIDE as a 19th century need;
: I read it as a hor'at sha'ah of sorts lkula - we should be more open to
: integrating many 20th century ideas (including TIDE or Torah Umada).

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287    Help free Yehuda Katz, held by Syria 5905 days!
micha@aishdas.org                         (11-Jun-82 - 27-Aug-98)
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
http://www.aishdas.org -- Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed

I believe Isaac Breuer was significantly successful at updating Hirschian
thought in the twentieth century, dealing with issues like the Jewish
State and modern more mystical trends from a Hirschian viewpoint. What is
unfortunate is that on the one hand, the mainstream Agudah mostly ignored
Breuer, while the sub-movement he helped mold, PAI, has disintegrated.

YGB 

> : What I find very distasteful about the Hirschian quoters (and I've
> seen : less of this on the list then I've heard in other places) is the
> : application of 19th century cultural mores to 20th century American
> life.  : Hirsch's attitude toward women's rights, education, Zionism vs.
> patriotism : toward the fatherland, culture, and other issues smacks of
> typical 19th : century thought.  His essays were perhaps progressive for
> his time relative : to his Orthodox contemporaries in Lita, but are not
> etched in stone as : reflecting universal truths.  The chareidi world
> (Breuer's included) reads : Hirsch as hora'at sha'ah l'chumra in
> rejecting TIDE as a 19th century need;  : I read it as a hor'at sha'ah
> of sorts lkula - we should be more open to : integrating many 20th
> century ideas (including TIDE or Torah Umada). 
> 

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.           ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                 ]
[ For control requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]