Avodah Mailing List

Volume 01 : Number 029

Wednesday, August 26 1998

• mishna brura
• Re: The Mishnah B'rurah and Ba'al Nefesh Yachmir
• Nida Program
• Re: In defense of Rav Moshe's calculations
• Re: The Mishnah B'rurah and Ba'al Nefesh Yachmir
• Re: Avodah V1 #28
• Re: In defense of Rav Moshe's calculations
• Re: Avodah V1 #28
• Re: Avodah V1 #28
• Re: In defense of Rav Moshe's calculations
• Re: The Mishnah B'rurah and Ba'al Nefesh Yachmir
• Re: In defense of Rav Moshe's calculations
• Re: In defense of Rav Moshe's calculations
• Re: Avodah V1 #28
• internet assur?
• R.Ahron Kotler and the Mishnah Berurah
• Chafetz Chaim and Mussar
• Re: Goodbyes.
• private discussions

some one can correct me please if i'm wrong, but i believe i remember one of
my rebeim quoting  rav henkin  [ of ezras torah ] that the chofetz chayim
was the zaddik hador, and we don't pasken like the zaddik hador--meaning i
take it that the olam are not required to be zaddikim; although now it seems
everyone needs to be a baal nefesh...

-----Original Message-----
From: Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
To: avodah@aishdas.org <avodah@aishdas.org>
Date: יום שלישי 25 אוגוסט 1998 05:39
Subject: Re: The Mishnah B'rurah and Ba'al Nefesh Yachmir


>I happen to be working on an essay on chumros, and admit that the ba'al
>nefesh yachmir of the MB was causing me grave difficulty. It is clearly
>not the ba'al nefesh of R' Chaim Volozhiner, PA Chap. 3, who dsays it
>means one who overcomes his material substance with spirituality (nefesh).
>I think, rather, that the MB subscribes to the philosophy of psak espoused
>by R' BZ Abba-Shaul, that halacha is hypothetically always open to review
>and if you follow the "wrong" opinion - even if now it may be espoused by
>a majority of poskim - you may be in for an unpleasant, quite hot
>surprise, in Olam Ha'Emes.
>
>Now, even the MB, RBZAS, and our chaverim R' Daniel E. and R' Shraga R.
>who fly the banner of the philosophy of psak above have their limits as to
>how far back you must go to avoid being roasted. According to their
>discussions today, R' Shraga holds that if it's in the Talmud you're safe;
>R' Daniel holds that if it's in the SA you can assume that you will have
>a spot in the air conditioned area achar me'ah ve'esrim, but, for them
>both (leaving out, for now, my family feud with R' Chaim on mis'asek), if
>you, say follow one of the mekillim on yoshon and get up there and find a
>Beis Din shel Ma'alah presided over by Briskers you are going to have a
>tough time!
>
I am not sure how we got from "whether you should disagree with Rav Moshe if
you hold your self to be a lamdan" to the idea that if you make a mistake it
might be quite hot in Olam HaEmes. I thought the discussion was concerned
with what constitutes a legitimate psak.

The issues of multiple truths versus single truth does not necessarily make
any difference as to what is a legitimiate psak or style of psak. There are
two versions of the multiple truth theory. One is that Torah was given in
multiple ways and this explains why both sides of an argument can espouse
Truth. The second is that the Posek creates Truth by his Psak and the
Heavenly court agrees with it. Now according to either of these theories it
is possible that the posek actually errs. Either because he missed one of
the legitimate alternative ways that Torah was given or that  the Heavenly
Court might decide in this case not to agree with him. The likelihood of
error can be minimized by following the same strategy that a posek who holds
that there is only one truth. In sum - the strategy of psak is not
necessarily a reflection of the posek's understanding of eilu v'eilu.

My discussion of the Shulchan Aruch was only concerned with the guidelines a
posek dealing with a public psak should follow or a lamdan who does not view
himself as a posek. The realm of what a person  - who views himself
compentent to posken - does in the privacy of his own life does not
necessarily have the same constraints. Therefore it is not legitimate to
draw the conclusions that Rabbi Bechoffer has concerning what I would view
as the punishment meted out to one who doesn't follow the Shulchan Aruch.

Regarding the rationale behind the Mishna Berura. I have a theory based upon
what his son wrote in his biography of his father. He states that is father
was bothered by people who were paskening for themself but did not have the
background. Historically in the 1800's there was a growing split between the
world of the yeshivos and that of the Rabbinate. Volozhin yeshiva was the
first universal yeshiva i.e., it distanced itself from the community. As
time  went along many bnai Torah had problems going to the local Rav who was
viewed as a Maskil or incompetent. The problem was that in the yeshivos must
avreichim (or rosh yeshiva) did not have familiarity with the responsa
literature,  know clearly the trend in the poskim or have shimush in psak.
My conjecture is that the Mishna Berura was created as a handbook for
avreichim - who were competent in learning but did not have the time or
inclination to research the sources to posken on everyday issues in Orech
Chaim.  Therefore the Mishna Berura does not emphasize the bottom line -
like the Aruch HaShulchan. The Mishna Berura expected the reader to posken
for himself. This knowledge helped further accelerate the process of
undermining the status of the Rav. A number of Rabbonim have agreed with
conjecture - but feel it is not consistent with the present view of the
Mishna Berura.
                     Daniel Eidensohn

As my computer has been very very sick (11million bytes in bad sectors on the now replaced hard disk), I have not been able to comunicate with this list for a while, and so this response is to quite an old post


Avi Pechman asked:

>> ...Chana Henkin said at the conference, in response to 
>> her new program to
>> train women to be "halachik decisors" (her words) in areas of 
>> niddah,...

>Does anyone know what types of questions these "halachik decisors"
>will handle? Are they looking at bloodstains, or calculating vestos, or
>finding kulos for a woman with a twelve day cycle?

I haven't really discussed this with Rabbanit Henkin, but my impression
is all of the above (and others, eg was a tevila a kosher etc).

Basically the problem is (and this is a problem that stretches across the
frum community) that women do not like (actually, the word is hate)
going to a man on such questions - you are talking about matters that
are extremely intimate and private.  Most women I know try, as far as
possible, to go through their husbands, but that is not always possible. 
Basically what happens is that shialas are not asked (and depending on
the frumkeit of the woman that means that either they are not being with
the husbands as often as they could, or more often than they should).

Thus the program is being set up to deal with all the questions that
women feel uncomfortable asking or talking about to men, into which I
believe that all of the matters you mentioned fall.

Clearly if the question is out of the ordinary, or not within the limits of
their experience, they have rebbeim to whom to turn - but they will be
knowledgeable enough to ask sufficient questions and obtain sufficient
detail that the woman herself does not have to deal with anyone other
than a woman.

Regards

Chana

Obviously everyone agrees that hiluch mil is static.  The question here is
since zmanei hayom change based upon the time of year and location there are
possibly 2 ways to figure out what is the correct time for your particular
location and day.
1. Leo Levis and Rabbi YGB's approach based on degrees beneath the horizon.
Where  you need to figure out the degrees for bein hashmashot of the Gra and
Rabbeinu Tam, and the degrees for vaday layla for both shitos. And obviously
you need the ability to know the degrees below the horizon for your particular
time and location, something the average guy in the street can't do without
looking at some list.
2. Rav Moshes approach that once you know (perhaps based upon the mesorah in
europe)  the darkness for 4 mil in one place you try to ascertain the similar
darkness in your place. Then to figure out bein hashmashot for the diff.
shitos, you simple divide that unit of 4 mil by 16 and you get the basic unit
of 1/4 of a 'zman mil', and then do the basic math. This is something most
people can do (and perhaps all that Hashem or the Halacha expects you to do -
a similar  approach to what I heard in the name of  Rav Moshe concerning how
to practically estimate a kziyit of  matzah ...).

The 2 shitos in theory I believe should be somewhat similar assuming the both
start at the same point (which they don't).

Kol Tuv,
Shraga



Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer wrote:

> I believe you are missing something. Of course the zman of 4 mil is
> static, as hiluch mil is static. And, of course, the measurement is taken
> on an equinox day - perfectly proportioned - and extrapolated from there.
> That is what Leo Levi did in his book (so have others). On an eqinox day
> in EY or Bavel after zman hiluch 4 mil the sun will be 16.1d beneath the
> horizon if a mil=18m or 19.8d beneath the horizon if a mil=22.5m (there is
> another shitta for a mil - 24m, and another shiur for bein hashemashos in
> Pesachim - 5 mil. Multiply those and you have the Brisker shitta of 120m).
>
> You are not changing the zman hiluch mil, however, at all, ever. That
> cannot change. What can change is the amount of time it takes for the sun
> to reach that degree beneath the horizon.
>
> YGB
>

One gets the impression from the discussions on the  the Mishnah B'rurah and
Ba'al Nefesh Yachmir,  that it is a totally new approach to be machmir in these
scenarios.  In reality, we find the exact term and similar ones in the Gemara
and Shulchan Aruch.

For example:
1. In Psachim 40a the Gemara says in a particular case of chametz that for a
baal nefesh it is assur.  There are 2 versions in Rashi what is a baal nefesh -
a chassid, or a yarey shamayim hachared al nafsho.

2. In Shulchan Aruch Yorah Deah the Ramah in 116:7 says baal nefesh yachmir.

3. In Shulchan Aruch Yorah Deah the Ramah in 95:7 and in 105:13 uses the term of
hamachmir tavo alav bracha.

While modern day achronim - in particular the Mishna Brurah - may use this
approach more often, it is not a totally new approach.

Kol Tuv,
Shraga

Regarding Rav Ahron Kotler's efforts to have the Mishah Berurah accepted, I
have seen a photograph of him, for which he seems to have posed, in which he
is holding a Mishnah Berurah in his hand with the title prominently displayed.

Rabbi Bechhofer wrote: <<< You are not changing the zman hiluch mil,
however, at all, ever. That cannot change. What can change is the amount
of time it takes for the sun to reach that degree beneath the horizon.
>>>

That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Rav Moshe holds that in
NY, it takes 50 minutes for the sky to be dark enough to count as Rabenu
Tam's tzeis, and that therefore 3/16 of that amount is the shiur for the
Gra.

Rav Moshe was not the first to hold that the duration of bein hashmashos
remains constant all year long. Anyone who waits 72 clock minutes is
following that idea. I believe one source for this might be the Machtzis
Hashekel 235:3. First he explains how to use shaos zmanios to calculate
the time of Plag Hamincha. Then <<< add on the shiur of 4 mil from the
beginning of shkia until tzeis, which is 1 1/5 hours... and this is
definitely *equal* hours, not zmanios hours, because it is based on the
equal travel and regular movement of the spheres, whether the day is long
or short... >>>

Akiva Miller


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Regarding the Chafetz Chaim and mussar, Dov Katz wrote in Tenuas HaMussar
that the Chofetz Chaim was moved to write a work on hilchos leshon hora after
hearing R. Yisroel Salanter say that the best way to learn mussar is to learn
all the details of the halachos involved in any given area a person needs to
work on.  

It seems to me that this discussion of the responsibility of a posek for
his p'sak is different Gem. in Sanhedrin. Look at the bottom of 6b. "a
judge only is to judge by what his eyes sees" and Rashi there that a
judge (and a posek see R'Moshe's intro to Iggeros Moshe) is not held
responsible for errors. However see the bottom of 7a where it says that
every judge should see Gehenim open under him, and 7b where R' Huna and
R' Ashi gathered 10 people to share the punishment (a sliver of the
beam). See also later on in the amud Rav's description of himself judging
and the spiritual danger inherent in it. I don't understand how to put
this all together and would appreciate some insight. 

The idea that the Shulchan Aruch was accepted because of R' Yosef Cairo's
s'michah is a clever idea but I don't think it is true since Klal Yisrael
basically rejected the Mahri bei Rav's idea and followed the Ralbach
instead, and R' Cairo himself did not seem to really hold from his
s'michah since in the discussion of judging knas he never mentions it nor
did he try to convey it anyone else. 

Shraga Rothbart

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On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Shragai Botwinick wrote:

> 2. Rav Moshes approach that once you know (perhaps based upon the mesorah in
> europe)  the darkness for 4 mil in one place you try to ascertain the similar
> darkness in your place. Then to figure out bein hashmashot for the diff.

I have no idea how you can compare darknesses except based on degrees
beneath the horizon.

> shitos, you simple divide that unit of 4 mil by 16 and you get the basic unit
> of 1/4 of a 'zman mil', and then do the basic math. This is something most

It is not hard at all to go out and see three stars. That is all you are
expected to do. Chazal didn't expect people to have clocks and start
calculating variable millim.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Shragai Botwinick wrote:

> One gets the impression from the discussions on the  the Mishnah B'rurah and
> Ba'al Nefesh Yachmir,  that it is a totally new approach to be machmir in these
> scenarios.  In reality, we find the exact term and similar ones in the Gemara
> and Shulchan Aruch.
>

No one has that impression, I hope. It is the type of cases and scope of
application in which the MB gave this advice that remains unique.
 
YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Kenneth G Miller wrote:

> Rav Moshe was not the first to hold that the duration of bein hashmashos
> remains constant all year long. Anyone who waits 72 clock minutes is
> following that idea. I believe one source for this might be the Machtzis
> Hashekel 235:3. First he explains how to use shaos zmanios to calculate
> the time of Plag Hamincha. Then <<< add on the shiur of 4 mil from the
> beginning of shkia until tzeis, which is 1 1/5 hours... and this is
> definitely *equal* hours, not zmanios hours, because it is based on the
> equal travel and regular movement of the spheres, whether the day is long
> or short... >>>
> 

I do hope you are citing the Machatzis HaShekel as an interesting source,
for it seems based on antiquated astronomy.

R' Moshe, to my understanding, did NOT hold that bein hashemashos is a
constant - rather, that 50 min. is an outer limit, and one can use it
throughout the year without making separate cheshbonos. R' Henkin writes
similarly on 72 min., conceding that from a logical viewpoint the time,
must, perforce, vary.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Shragai Botwinick wrote:
>
> > 2. Rav Moshes approach that once you know (perhaps based upon the mesorah in
> > europe)  the darkness for 4 mil in one place you try to ascertain the similar
> > darkness in your place. Then to figure out bein hashmashot for the diff.
>
> I have no idea how you can compare darknesses except based on degrees
> beneath the horizon.

Well apparently Rav Moshe was able to.

I think that this identification of the Chofetz Chaim as a baal musar and
therefore claiming that his sefer follows a musar derech to such an
extent that the "usefulness of this sefer for someone who doesn't follow
that derech is suspect" is going a bit much to say the least. As has
already been pointed out, the Chazon Ish (not known for his leanings
towards mussar to say the least) recognized this sefer as the ultimate
contemporary work on Orach Chaim, and the basis of contemporary practice,
and it has been fairly universally accepted by all of Klal Yisrael. I
find it a little bit funny that it is being made to sound as if the
Chofetz Chaim was the first person to introduce the concept of a baal
nefesh yachmir please see the Gem. in Chulin 37b where it says about
Yechzkel that he never ate meat that there was a need to ask a shaila
about (also relevant for you plurality in Halachah and relative truth
fans!). Its bad enough that we have made the Sefer Chofetz Chaim on
Loshan Hora a mussar sefer, lets not do this to the Mishnah Brurah. 

Shraga Rothbart

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FYI, in the current jewish observer  there is mention that  though r
shererfelt a WEB site might be useful in defending the orthodox position on
am echad [ conversions shelo khalacha] the Moetzet felt it would be
improper. So maybe current daat tora is that the internet is assur, period.
interestingly, Satmar has just reopened their small  WEB site.

kol tuv

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From: JoshHoff@aol.com
Return-path: <JoshHoff@aol.com>
To: avodah@aishdas.org
Subject: Re: Avodah V1 #28
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:21:23 EDT
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Regarding Rav Ahron Kotler's efforts to have the Mishah Berurah accepted, I
have seen a photograph of him, for which he seems to have posed, in which he
is holding a Mishnah Berurah in his hand with the title prominently displayed.

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From: JoshHoff@aol.com
Return-path: <JoshHoff@aol.com>
To: avodah@aishdas.org
Subject: Re: Avodah V1 #28
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:45:54 EDT
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Regarding the Chafetz Chaim and mussar, Dov Katz wrote in Tenuas HaMussar
that the Chofetz Chaim was moved to write a work on hilchos leshon hora after
hearing R. Yisroel Salanter say that the best way to learn mussar is to learn
all the details of the halachos involved in any given area a person needs to
work on.  

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I'm sure many others received a good-bye from R, Hendell not posted to the
list because he has apparently be expelled.  I don't know any of the
details regarding the decision  - but  despite the fact that I have
disagreed with almost everything he has written I still support his right
to not be censured.

I understand the list is not a democracy and there are guidelines which our
listowner alone is free to enforce.  However, I'd rather be personally
responsible to delete what I don't want to read or respond to then to have
a policy of expulsion.

-CB

Dear Rabbi Bechoffer,

I am new to the list as you know. In reading some of the questions on
Arayos and your (the halacha's) sensitivity to public discussion of
these issues, may I suggest that a way be found to discuss private
matters ? Maybe you should request around the list for ideas as to how
to discuss these issues in a fashion which you believe is within Tzniut.
I'll start off with my idea. Possibly your ISP has a secure server. The
key or password could be given only to those who request it. It may
still be more public than might be optimum, but it would require a
higher nuisance factor on the part of the one requesting the key and
deter at some or most idle curiosity.

********************


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