Avodah Mailing List

Volume 01 : Number 013

Tuesday, August 4 1998

• Learning on tisha b'av
• Re: Avodah V1 #13
• Re: Avodah V1 #13
• A New Question in the PreKnowledge FreeWill Controversy
• Rambam and Hashgachah

Found quoted in a secondary source: Shibolei HaLeket cites a tshuvos
hageonim not to recite birchas hatorah on 9 Av, indicating a suspension of
the chiyuv of T"T.

Someone suggested to me that the fact that we do say birchat haTorah
indicates that we maintain the chiyuv of Talmud Torah remains in place.  I
don't think this is a proof.  R' Chaim explained that women say birchat
hatorah even though they have no chiyuv becuase the 'cheftza shel Torah'
requires a b'racha.  One could argue that despite having no chiyuv on 9 Av,
since we may choose to learn devarin ha'raim from Torah text, the cheftza
necessitates a beracha.

Magen Avraham suggests the reason we normally say Nachem only at Mincha is
because the fire was lit at that time.  L'shitaso, he says when we fast on
10 av we should say Nachem in all our tefillot.  Since that (I think) is
not the common practice, any have a hesber as to why we add it at mincha
only?

Was wondering about the parameters of aveilut b'parhesia on Shabbos.  Rama
cites the minhag of not wearing bigdei shabbos on Shabbos Chazon, yet I saw
R' Shternbruch in Moadim U'Zmain quote practice of the Chazon Ish not to
lein the haftora of chazon with the Eicha trup becasue of avoiding aveilus
on Shabbos.  Quite a spectrum!

-Chaim B.


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Joel wrote:

"As a separate issue there's a story about the Rogotchover learning when
he
wasn't supposed to (aveilut or some other time-I've heard a number of
versions) and the punchline is I'd rather have the olam haba of someone
who learns when their not supposed to....   I used to think it was a great
story but would appreciate input since I later thought that we each have
nisyonot in life-for some it may be not learning when their not supposed
to- but if we hold the "breaking" of this rule as a good thing how do we
respond to those who claim their "breaking" is also good for them(ie
breaking is breaking). [yes I did say the same thing by learning during
chazarat hashas- at least I'm consistent:-)]"

My father (Rav Tzvi Hersh Weinreb, Baltimore, MD) tells this story
of the Rogatchover Gaon with an added explanation. He quotes a yerushalmi,
and bli neder I will ask him where it is, that if a Talmid Chochom
is "lahut Acharei Toraso" that it is mutar for him to learn even bavailus.
He used to respond that the Rogatchover apparently paskened like the
yerushalmi for there is no indication that the Bavli disagrees with this
heter.  His comment about having the olam habba... is not really even a
joke if you look into it deeper.  I certainly would not mind having the
olam habba of one who is "lahut acharei Toraso"
Shaul Weinreb

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In a message dated 98-08-03 15:18:15 EDT, you write:

<< 
 My father (Rav Tzvi Hersh Weinreb, Baltimore, MD) tells this story
 of the Rogatchover Gaon with an added explanation. He quotes a yerushalmi,
 and bli neder I will ask him where it is, that if a Talmid Chochom
 is "lahut Acharei Toraso" that it is mutar for him to learn even bavailus. >>

Thanks. I know there are some bavli sources of different rules for special
individuals-even to the extent of possibly not marrying.  I'd be especially
interested in the source, if any, that the yerushalmi quotes.  While we're on
the topic, I've always been interested in the issue of paskening like the
yerushalmi where there's no machloket with the bavlli.  In this case does the
shulchan aruch etc. bring this down?


Kol tuv,
Joel
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>>Can God commit suicide>>

It seems to me the answer to the above question must be NO (for
what would it mean to say yes)

But then there is something God cannot do (Namely commit suicide)

If that is so it won't upset me that much if God can't create a rock so
big he can't lift it himself

This calls into question >>What exactly are we required to believe about God<<

I would suggest the following list which solve the Free will-prknowledgee
problem--my question will then be >>How heretical is this list<<

LIST OF THINGS WE MUST BELIEVE ABOUT GOD
=======================================
* He can create unlimited energy in the present (e.g. he can destroy the world)
* He can control specific future events (e.g. He can decree that the Jews
	will win a war or that a Mesiah will eventually come from the House of David)
* He is all knowingof both thoughts and the present--in particular if e.g.
he decrees that a certain act will be punished with death than HE has the
capacity to instantaneously know of everyone who commits that act and kill him

We can summarize the above by stating that God is
		Omnipotent 
		Omnitient (in the present)
		Prophetic (Or can enable prophecies)

It seems this covers most basises. I have deliberately left out from the
list that God knows my future actions (unless He predicted them). Thus
if I chose to sin or do good it is my act.

My first question is: Is this heretical (when measured against primary
sources in the Gmarrah as expounded by the Rishonim..I of course realize
that rishonim held God knows my particular future actions..my question is
>>is anything lost if we believe otherwise...does the Gmarrah really
require it.

One may ask: Have you accomplished anything? Or >>If there was a conflict
between FREE WILL and PREKNOWLEDGE why did you pick FREE WILL as more important

I believe the answer lies in responsibility. I am asking everyone who sins
to realize that (s)he is hurting Gods presence in the world. Similarly
everyone who does good deeds is helping Gods presence. This places 
tremendous responsiblity on the individual. (The only sins a person cannot
do are those that interfer with Gods prophecies)

Rav Hirsch gives a similar explaining to BLESSINGS -= BRCh = KNEE. To bless
God = To KNEE IZE Him. God "walks" thru history. He will get where He is
going whether we help him or not. But if we do good deed then we KNEE IZE
him and facilitate his walk thru history. If we do bad deeds we "stilt"
Gods walk.

Another way to raise the above questions (without suggesting possibly 
heretical thoughts) is to ask: >>According to those who emphasize Gods
preknowledge...how do they motivate people to do good and stop from evil..
after all if God is running history and Mitzvoth are simply done because
they are Gods will...then isn't it true that we lose some motivation to
do them<<

Before anyone classifies the above as heretical note that
	* I can always add Gods preknowledge to the list (but then we have 
	serious Intellectual problems in believing in free will)

 * I am aware of what Rishonim say..I am simply asking in terms of
	primary sources  (Tnach, Gmarrah...is it required to believe that
	God actually knows now every act I will do in the future .. my
	reading of texts is that we must believe that God knows the present
	and has the capacity to punish all evil doers)

Anyway perhaps the answers to the above will suggest another avenue of 
thought

Russell Jay Hendel phd Asa rhendel @ mcs drexel edu
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In n1v11, cbrown@bestware.com writes:
: I think two different issues are being confued in the discussion.  The
: opposite of teva is nes, not hashgacha.

Actually, the Rambam (M"N vol 3, numerous times in ch 17,18,51) clearly
disagrees. He writes that those who aren't sufficiently "human" to warrant
hashgachah are "left to teva". As I said when the Rambam was first quoted --
this doesn't appear similar to what most frum Jews believe today.

:                                          Imagine a tzaddik whose car breaks
: down on the railroad tracks.  Proportional to his level of yediyat Hashem
: (as outlined by the Rambam) he may merit being saved through special
: hashgacha.  His salvation may come through the train being delyed (teva) or
: his car flying through the air (nes).

My guess is that the Rambam had a deterministic physics. Therefore, if someone
is "left to teva", there isn't room for two possibilities -- within teva,
either the train is delayed, or it isn't. Once we throw in the existance of
other people's bechirah, they too can cause the train to be delayed or not.
However, as their bechirah is inviolate, it doesn't help us solve our problem
any; it can't be the vehicle by which hashgachah can enter teva.

Perhaps this is why the Rambam's phraseology is either-or.

In today's world-view, though, physics isn't deterministic, there is room
within teva for either version of the train's arrival time.

:                                        The Rambam, as I understand it,
: preserves as much as possible the natural order (as do most Rishonim)...

Of course they do. Theory has to match experimental data. The events of our
lives tend to fit a pattern, so of course an explanation of events should have
that pattern dominant.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287    Help free Yehuda Katz, held by Syria 5884 days!
micha@aishdas.org                         (11-Jun-82 - 4-Aug-98)
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
http://www.aishdas.org -- Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed
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